Reflections On the Maine Event

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The unbelievable intensity of the Maine Ellen White Conference has made it hard for me to settle down and write. A host of inter-related issues are churning around in my head. But Augustine (via Chuck Scriven) spoke a great truth: “I have learned many things that I never knew before, just by writing.” So I am writing. Here are some random reflections.

A Correction: Wrong Church. My first blog entry drew some interesting responses when I identified the Unitarian Church where we held our Sabbath sunrise service with the Methodist Church in which Ellen Harmon worshiped and from which her family was expelled. Julius Nam sent me this helpful and intriguing correction:

You may want to independently verify this, but I believe the church where we met Friday night and Sabbath morning has always been a Unitarian church. The church that you're referring to – the Methodist church that disfellowshipped the Harmons – is actually around the corner from that church on Chestnut Street. - Since the First Parish Church where we met was built in 1825-26, Ellen certainly passed by the church on the way to her church, Chestnut Street Methodist Episcopal Church, whose building is now a fancy restaurant that opened in the past year. The building, though, is not the same that the Harmons attended. It was built in 1856-57.

For all kinds of reasons, I wince when I make a mistake like that, but am grateful for sharp eyes that put things right.

Adventism: A Mainstream-sectarian body? Even though the church building in Maine is not a (subtle) pointer toward the possible fate of Adventism, blog respondents were right in noting the question lurking behind my original comparison: Is Adventism headed down the same path as Methodism? If you want a vivid reminder of what that might look like, try this “liberal” revision of Amazing Grace, from the Glide Memorial Methodist Church in San Francisco, California. The original words are in brackets:

'Twas guilt [grace] that taught my heart to fear
And pride [grace] my fears relieved
How precious did that pride [grace] appear
The hour I first believed.

– cited in Christianity Today, 1993.11.01

That question of “Whither Adventism?” swirled in, around, and through virtually everything that happened at the conference: Is Adventism counter-cultural and thus sectarian? Or is it mainstream? At their point of origin, most new religious movements are sectarian, swimming upstream against the prevailing culture. A “sect” – in contrast with a “cult” that is clearly heterodox (heretical) – can be quite orthodox in its teaching; it simply seeks a community that allows a more intense religious experience over against the more relaxed culture-accommodating denomination or church.

Christianity in its birth-pangs was clearly sectarian, standing over against both mainstream Judaism and Roman culture. Early Adventism was also sectarian: “Babylon is Fallen!” trumpeted the second angel of Revelation 14:8 and early Adventists uttered a hearty amen, adding the cry of the other angel in Revelation 18:4, “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

To be very candid, for many years now, much of my professional, personal, and devotional energy has been focused on the question: “How did Ellen White move from condemnation to cooperation as her dominant mode of operation? Given the clear thrust of the second angel’s message, it is nothing short of revolutionary to hear her say to A. T. Jones, the most biting of Catholic-bashing Adventists: “The Lord wants His people to follow other methods than that of condemning wrong, even though the condemnation be just. He wants us to do something more than to hurl at our adversaries charges that only drive them further from the truth.” – 6T 121 (1901)

Similarly, to a Brother Boyd on assignment to South Africa she wrote:

In laboring in a new field, do not think it your duty to say at once to the people, We are Seventh-day Adventists; we believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath; we believe in the non-immortality of the soul. This would often erect a formidable barrier between you and those you wish to reach. Speak to them, as you have opportunity, upon points of doctrine on which you can agree. Dwell on the necessity of practical godliness. Give them evidence that you are a Christian, desiring peace, and that you love their souls. Let them see that you are conscientious. Thus you will gain their confidence; and there will be time enough for doctrines. Let the heart be won, the soil prepared, and then sow the seed, presenting in love the truth as it is in Jesus. (Gospel Workers, 119-120 [1915]; Evangelism, 200; cf. “Letter to a Minister and His Wife Bound for Africa” [June 25, 1887 = Letter 12, to Elder Boyd; almost verbatim “original” of the Gospel Worker quote] in Testimonies to Southern Africa, pp. 14-20).

The desert- and mountain-dwelling separatist impulse represented by the second angel’s message was the one segment in Adventism that was scarcely present at the conference, residing mostly in the memories of those who once were there, or who know people who are. In practical terms, that meant that it did not “feel” like there were spies watching for shadowy traces of beastly Babylon. And that was why the conversations were so lively, so honest, and so helpful. Without realizing it, everyone there was practicing what the “mature” Ellen White preached:

In the advocacy of the truth the bitterest opponents should be treated with respect and deference. Some will not respond to our efforts, but will make light of the gospel invitation. Others – even those whom we suppose to have passed the boundary of God's mercy – will be won to Christ. The very last work in the controversy may be the enlightenment of those who have not rejected light and evidence, but who have been in midnight darkness and have in ignorance worked against the truth. Therefore treat every man as honest. Speak no word, do no deed, that will confirm any in unbelief. 6T 122 (1901) originally to A. T. Jones

In the panel that brought the conference to a close, two comments struck me as particularly intriguing. Ron Numbers called it the most important EGW event in 90 years. George Knight said he never thought he would ever see these people all together in the same room.

The Participants. Who were the people that Knight never expected to see together in the same room? Here is a sampling:

A. The first generation of EGW critics. These were on the ground floor when the Association of Adventist Forums was formed and began publishing Spectrum (1969). Some are still active in the church, even employed by the church; others currently have no formal ties to the community: Roy Branson and Ron Numbers were both members of the original AAF board. William Peterson and Don McAdams both wrote memorable articles on Ellen White’s use of sources; Jonathan Butler’s notoriety came from his article on Adventist eschatology. The first edition of Numbers’ Prophetess of Health was published by Harper and Row in 1976. Vern Carner, founder of the journal, Adventist Heritage, was also present. Carner was a key player in the publication of two collections of historical essays, Edwin Gaustad’s The Rise of Adventism (Harper and Row, 1974) and Gary Land’s Adventism in America (Eerdmans, 1986). A 1984 conference on Millerism and a subsequent collection of essays, edited by Numbers and Butler, The Disappointed (Indiana University Press, 1987) was in honor of Carner’s work in Adventist historical studies.

B. Women. Three of the 21 proposed chapters were written by women. A total of 67 names were on the official list of invitees, 18 of them women. Of the women, 8 are Adventists, all from SDA campuses. Three were from La Sierra University: Kendra Haloviak, Ginger Harwood, and Marilyn Loveless; two were from Walla Walla University: Terrie Aamodt and Beverly Beem; Lisa Diller was from Southern Adventist University, Joan Francis from Washington Adventist University, and Susan Gardner from Southwestern Adventist University. A number of strong voices of both genders urged that the chapters on women’s issues come first in the book.

C. Notable Scholars. The conference attendees good-naturedly bantered about “insiders” and “outsiders.” The array of notable, published scholars attending the conference was impressive; 22 had no obvious connection with Adventism. Significant published authors included Paul Boyer, Ruth Alden Doan, Joan Hedrick, David Rowe, Ann Taves, Laura Vance, and Grant Wacker. Published Adventist authors included Ron Graybill, Floyd Greenleaf, George Knight, Gary Land, Douglas Morgan, Jon Paulien, Greg Schneider, Gil Valentine, and Woodrow Whidden.

D. Church People. For church employees, an invitation to an Ellen White conference co-organized by one of Ellen White’s most vocal critics, Ron Numbers, would not necessarily be a cause for great joy. Yet the primary organizers are deeply committed Adventists, convinced that Ellen White was a significant figure in American history and deserves serious scholarly study. Julius Nam (LLU), Terrie Aamodt (WWU) and Gary Land (AU) were the leading “church” lights in the planning process. But Ron Numbers was very much on board, ensuring a remarkable number of qualified non-Adventist participants, who, in my view, played a crucial role in the conference. Merlin Burt from the White Estate and two former employees of the White Estate, Ron Graybill (LLU) and Arthur Patrick (Avondale, Australia) often provided helpful background information. Bert Haloviak from the General Conference archives played an essential “insider” role. Eric Anderson, president of SWAU, W. G. Nelson, academic dean at Kettering College of Medical Arts, and Craig Newborn, pastor of the Oakwood University Church, also ensured that the church presence was solid and unequivocal.

E. Outsiders. Two of the 21 proposed chapters were written by “outsiders,” both of them women: Ann Taves on Ellen White’s “Early Religious Experiences” and Laura Vance on “Women’s Roles.” Joan Hedrick captivated the conference with her opening lecture on Harriet Beecher Stowe; Grant Wacker’s Friday night lecture on Billy Graham was also well received. Otherwise one “outsider” – and one “insider” – responded to each proposed chapter. Time and again the visiting scholars expressed their delight at being invited to participate in the conference. Several of them told the whole group that this conference would rank as the “best” one they had ever attended. And I would have to say that their participation was part of what made it so good. They put their finger on weaknesses, affirmed the strengths, and, in general, did exactly what the organizers had hoped they would do.

Personal Observations. My impression is that several of the participants, especially those whom I have described as first-generation EGW critics, have moved on to other things. But they were still interested enough in Ellen White studies to come and enter into a serious dialogue. The third edition of Numbers’ Prophetess of Health (Eerdmans, 2008) contains a new preface by Numbers, but otherwise appears to be a re-issue of the second edition (University of Tennessee Press, 1992) with its “Introduction” by Jonathan Butler and a psychological analysis of Ellen White, co-authored by Numbers and his wife Janet. Numbers has also been active in publishing works on the history of “scientific creationism.” In 2006 an expanded version of his 1992 book, The Creationists, was reissued by Harvard University Press. That topic, however, never came up for public discussion, even though Numbers addressed it in his proposed chapter.

My dialogue with Numbers over his proposed chapter on “Science and Medicine” illustrates where I am likely to take issue with those critics who focus primarily on the problematic early EGW statements. It was from Numbers’ first edition of Prophetess of Health (1976) that I first learned that Ellen White had taken her boys to a phrenologist to have the shape of their heads examined. Typically, Christians find ways of making peace with the wild things in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament. But Ellen White is much more recent. Surely we shouldn’t have to take time and place into account for a “prophet” so recent as the 19th century! So, like most Adventists reading Numbers, I was surprised. But about that same time I had also embarked on the project of reading Ellen White’s Testimonies for the Church from start to finish (1855 to 1909). There I was equally startled to read this quote in 1T 296 (1862): “Phrenology and mesmerism are very much exalted. They are good in their place, but they are seized upon by Satan as his most powerful agents to deceive and destroy souls.”

Given what we know today about phrenology, a traditional (inerrancy) view of inspiration has no way of explaining how such a point of view could be inspired. But 22 years later she wrote: “The sciences that treat of the human mind are very much exalted. They are good in their place; but they are seized upon by Satan as his powerful agents to deceive and destroy souls” (Signs of the Times, November 6 1884). Aha! Now we have a statement that we can live with. But is the second statement inspired and the first one not?

Calvin Stowe, husband of Harriet Beecher Stowe, to the rescue – via Ellen White! And having just heard Joan Hedrick’s fascinating opening night’s lecture on Harriet Beecher Stowe, author of the nation-transforming book, Uncle Tom Cabin’s, we were all alert to the Stowe name. Several Adventist voices at the conference noted that Ellen White’s statements on inspiration include those published in Book 1 of Selected Messages (1958), one of which is a revision of a statement originally written by Calvin Stowe. “It is not the words of the Bible that were inspired,” Stowe had written, “it is not the thoughts of the Bible that were inspired; it is the men who wrote the Bible that were inspired.” Ellen White revised that statement to: “It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired.” – 1 SM 21 [Ms 24 1886]. I find it significant that she left out his denial of “thought” inspiration. Her own settled position includes thought as well as person, but the crucial contrast is person instead of word. For me, it has been enormously freeing to be able to see the “person” as inspired rather than the “words.” That enables me to see everything in Scripture as “inspired” because the messages come through inspired persons. But those messages are not inspired “words” coming directly from God as absolute truth.

Numbers has the knowledge and resources to produce a carefully nuanced history of Ellen White’s views on health and science. He noted, for example, that Ellen White wrote little on the subject of sex after 1870. He also noted that “she did late in life recommend blood transfusion, undergo an extensive series of x-ray treatments for spot on her forehead, and receive a vaccination against smallpox.” My question is: How did Ellen White get from point A to point B? An answer requires careful historical work. The following two quotations, for example, help explain why Adventist institutions of higher education did not go the way of the Bible colleges – a question that several of the “outsiders” raised. A school of medicine requires real science. Did Ellen White support that? Indeed she did. Speaking against the tendency to appeal to her word and example as the basis for action, she exclaimed: “If you have not got any better conviction – you won't eat meat because Sister White does not eat any – if I am the authority, I would not give a farthing for your health reform.” – “Talk by Mrs. E. G. White Before Representative Brethren, in the [Battle Creek] College Library, April 1, 1901,” Ms 43a, 1901, p. 13. [Ellen G. White Estate, Washington, D. C.]).

A more flamboyant statement is one from the Testimonies in 1870:

My voice shall be raised against novices undertaking to treat disease professedly according to the principles of health reform. God forbid that we should be the subjects for them to experiment upon! We are too few. It is altogether too inglorious a warfare for us to die in. God deliver us from such danger! We do not need such teachers and physicians. Let those try to treat disease who know something about the human system. The heavenly Physician was full of compassion. This spirit is needed by those who deal with the sick. Some who undertake to become physicians are bigoted, selfish, and mulish. You cannot teach them anything. It may be they have never done anything worth doing. They may not have made life a success. They know nothing really worth knowing, and yet they have started up to practice the health reform. We cannot afford to let such persons kill off this one and that one. No; we cannot afford it! 2T 375 (1870)

What are we allowed to say? In his initial remarks to the attendees, Julius Nam had asked the attendees not to quote anything from the participants without their permission. So right at the end of the conference, I asked about that very point. Terrie Aamodt, Bev Beem, and I were all scheduled to give a report on the conference at the Sunnyside Church in Portland, Oregon, the very next week end. What could we say? The organizers put their heads together, then agreed that we could say anything we wanted to! That was a mark of how healthy and respectful the conversations at the conference had been.

Later, Numbers came to me personally and said that I could quote anything he said – as long as I made it clear what was humorous and what was serious. Wonderful! Except Numbers is quite capable of deadpan humor, so that could be dangerous license. He himself noted an example where his humor had been mistaken for seriousness in a public dialogue at the conference.

One more personal exchange with him was intriguing. In his wrap-up comments at the end, Numbers pointed out that he had agreed to participate in the conference under two conditions: no personal attacks and no apologetics. And the conference wonderfully fulfilled those conditions. When he asked me how I liked the conference, I referred to those two conditions and said that they simply reflected the teachings of Jesus as embodied in his second great command: we are to treat others the way we would want to be treated. Strong-minded people expressed real convictions at the conference. But we called one another to account in ways that were appropriate. I think I could even hear a hearty amen from Jesus.

Conversations on the plane. This story would not be complete without a brief comment on what happened on the way home. I was in the same SUV with Ron Numbers as we headed to the airport on Sunday afternoon. He asked me where I saw myself on the “liberal/conservative” scale in Adventism. So I told him about my pie chart: I’m lemon pie; he’s pecan. We had great good godly fun talking about all that. This was my first opportunity to get acquainted with him personally. His close friends see him as a very kind person and people-loving. He doesn’t know what to do with Ellen White. But he has lots of company on that score.

At the airport, we discovered that Jon Paulien, Ron Numbers, and I were on the same plane to Detroit. Paulien boarded first. As Numbers and I waited for our turn, I stepped up to him and asked, “What’s your seat?” He checked: “3B.” I looked at mine: 3A. We had a wonderful conversation.

I will share just one segment because it relates to how we live in the church. Numbers asked me how I would compare his position with that of Graham Maxwell’s. “You both would focus on the importance of Jesus’ second great command,” I said. “But he is a deeply religious person.” Then he explained the reason for his question. When Numbers was teaching at Loma Linda, the rumor went around that Graham Maxwell was funding Numbers’ research. Knowing Maxwell as I do, I would see that as highly unlikely. Maxwell is a great fan of Ellen White. One doesn’t have to talk long with Numbers to realize that his relationship to her could at best be described in terms of love/hate – a couple of his friends playfully made that comment at the conference after he had exclaimed that he couldn’t understand why anyone would be interested in Ellen White, Joseph Smith, or Mary Baker Eddy. (Was he serious?). But from what I know of both men, the possibility of Maxwell’s funding Numbers’ research is highly unlikely. Highly. Highly.

That led me to reflect on the accusation that has gone around that I share Desmond Ford’s “new theology.” Anyone who knows anything about theology would know that Ford and I come at theology from radically different directions. But if you want to get rid of Graham Maxwell, link him with Ron Numbers. If you want to get rid of Alden Thompson, link him with Desmond Ford. Both linkages are tragic and very misleading. What was so beautiful about the conference was that one of Ellen White’s sharpest critics and one of her most enthusiastic defenders could be placed together on a plane (by a kindly providence?) and have a wonderful conversation.

I suspect that even Ellen White would have been pleased about that. After all, it was she who counseled a GC president on how he should deal with A. T. Jones, a man with whom Butler had serious disagreements. This is what she counseled him:

If a brother differs with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule, do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions, taking the Scriptures text-by-text in the Spirit of Christ to show him what is truth. You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot clearly define your own position. Take your Bible, and in a kindly spirit weigh every argument that he presents, and show him by the Scripture if he is in error. When you do this without unkind feelings, you will do only that which is your duty and the duty of every minister of Christ. (EGW to G. I. Butler, Letter 21, 1888 [October 14], The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials 1:98)

Arriving Home: Sobering Realities. On the plane from Salt Lake City to Pasco, Washington, I had another wonderful conversation. A perceptive Adventist woman who takes a very practical approach to life was my seatmate. She asked good questions and appreciated honest answers. But she reads neither Spectrum nor Adventist Today. She is the kind of person who is delighted that she can download Ellen White’s Steps to Christ and Desire of Ages to her cell phone so that she can read them when she travels. There are many good Adventists like her. It was a rich conversation as we talked about precious things, all the way to Pasco.

But when I got home I opened a package from a young man who has left Adventism, not on the rationalist left side of the spectrum, but on the right. He now worships at an evangelical church. He has a relative in our valley who was very eager that I talk with him. So several weeks ago we had a good telephone conversation and he agreed to read two of my books: Who’s Afraid of the Old Testament God?, my first semi-popular book, one that includes no Adventist jargon and no Ellen White. It was published by Paternoster in the UK and then Zondervan in the US. It has been reissued by a former student of mine who is now a Methodist. The other book was Escape from the Flames: How Ellen White Grew from Fear to Joy and Helped Me Do It Too (Pacific Press, 2005). It is very autobiographical and loaded with Ellen White material. Devout conservative Adventists have often found that book more helpful than Inspiration.

The young man had read my two books and put notations in the margin. In Escape from the Flames, whenever I spoke of Ellen White’s “use of sources,” he penciled “plagiarism” in the margin beside it. I had not convinced him at all, he said. Indeed, he accused me of tearing down his Bible in order to save Ellen White. A deeply religious person, he has left Adventism for a fundamentalist church on the right, but uses all the same arguments against Ellen White as those who leave Adventism on the rationalist left. In his cover letter, he says this about the Bible: “One cannot compare the diverse and changing teachings of one person over a period of 75 years to the incredible agreement of 40 different Bible authors over a period of 1500 years. The agreement of Scripture and its teachings with itself is incredible....” He enthusiastically sent me a CD of a sermon by his pastor. It was a good sermon, but not one that would prepare the Bart Ehrmans of the world for the close reading of Scripture while retaining a strong faith in God. “You cannot pick and choose,” said his pastor. But it was Jesus who signaled that a new era was dawning. He touched a leper (Matt. 8:3); he let a hemorrhaging woman touch his garment (Matt. 9:20); he touched the dead body of Jairus’ daughter. Numbers 5, the subject of our Sabbath School lessons this quarter, says that all those kinds of people are to be sent out of the camp so that no one would be defiled. But Jesus did not send them away. He touched them. “You cannot pick and choose,” said the pastor. But surely we have chosen and we do choose. Should we not take those biblical issues seriously?

But all that points to the other recent conflict in Adventism. If Adventism could be described as pre-Numbers and post-Numbers, an observation that was rightly made at the conference, it could also be described in terms of pre-Ford and post-Ford. That is a religious question not directly addressed at the Ellen White conference. But that is one that greatly interests me because of my deep religious convictions. And I must admit that I often feel lonely in Adventism because it is so hard to find a community that is both exploratory and devout. Why is it that at both extremes, left and right, the tendency is to see only part of the evidence instead of it all? At the conference, the Sabbath morning worship service was a deeply meaningful experience for me. I can understand why the organizers did not include formal religious elements in the conference itself. But I admit that I missed that more explicit reminder that all of our work is done in God’s presence.

As a last word, let me refer to an experience in Adventist academia that has left a deep impression on me. Sophisticated Adventists are often a bit embarrassed about being too openly identified with fervent faith. Instead of doing our scholarship in the presence of God, we tend to separate scholarship and faith. That reluctance was evident at an academic lecture I once attended on the campus of an Adventist institution of higher education. The invited guest was the well-known ethicist, Stanley Hauerwas from Duke University. He was given a fine introduction but without any indication that he was addressing a Christian community. He stepped to the podium without comment, said, “Let us pray.” It was beautiful, a prayer that nearly moved me to tears, as I recall. But the enduring memory has been of his silent rebuke of a Christian community that does not know that it is Christian, or is at least afraid to say so too loudly. I want to make room in the community for the Ecclesiastes people, those for whom God is a reality, but a more distant one. In Ecclesiastes there is no prayer, no praise, no worship. Yet the author fears God: “Never be rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be quick to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven, and you upon earth; therefore let your words be few” (Eccl. 5:2, NRSV).

We must make room in the church for the Ecclesiastes people. Yet many others are not able to see the Bible as it really is because they are in such awe of God – like the young man who sees the Bible in completely uniform terms. We must find ways to include both kinds of people in the church. The Maine conference was an important step in that direction.

Jared Wright - Tue, 11/10/2009 - 20:18

Thanks Alden for the reflections!

A collection of images from this conference can be viewed at http://www.flickr.com/photos/ellenwhiteproject/

Carmen Lau - Tue, 11/10/2009 - 20:40

Thank you for sharing your reflections and experiences.

Bill Sorensen - Tue, 11/10/2009 - 20:59

"If Adventism could be described as pre-Numbers and post-Numbers, an observation that was rightly made at the conference, it could also be described in terms of pre-Ford and post-Ford."

Actually, Adventism could more accurately be called pre-Brinsmead and post-Brinsmead. It was Brinsmead who influenced Ford and visa versa. Whether people know it or not, much if not most of modern Adventist theology is the direct result of the "Brinsmead Awakening".

"The church" of course would never admit this reality because if they did, they would necessarily have to deal with reality. As it is, they can conveniently ignore the facts of the matter and pretend he either didn't exist, or, at least had no significant influence on the church.

It was Brinsmead who introduced original sin to Adventist theology and its implications on the "final atonement". No one has resolved this enigma except by way of denying this historic Christian bible doctrine.

Liberal use the doctrine of original sin to deny the implications of the "final atonement" with an EGW understanding of the final atonement. Conservatives simply deny the doctrine of original sin and its implications, and therefore feel they can maintain the doctrine of the final atonement.

I personally feel like I have a viable understanding of both but don't think this is the place to express it.

But, as I said, it is Brinsmead who dynamically influenced the SDA church, and yet, modern scholars simply refuse to admit or acknowledge this reality. His name seldom, if ever, comes up in theological discussions and/or writings by present day church scholars. I.E., the paper by Pfandel on original sin in the SDA church where Brinsmead's name is conspicous by its absence.

Bill Sorensen

perpetualstudent - Tue, 11/10/2009 - 22:20

Thanks for the update. I must admit that I enjoyed reading the slightly rambling tale. Do you expound on your thoughts on the Ecclesiastes people of the church in your newest book? I haven't had a chance to get it yet, but I would love to read it.

Courtenay - Wed, 11/11/2009 - 02:38

Prof Thompson

Thank you for this beautiful reflective report; your two books, “Who’s Afraid of the Old Testament God” and “Inspiration: Hard Questions Honest Answers” have played a very meaningful part in my life. I would go so far as to say that your insights, as set out in those books, played a large role in enabling me to keep my faith, something that I was in great danger of losing.

The above article, “Reflections on the Main Event” is filled with as much honesty combined with love and concern as I sensed in your books. May god bless you so that you can continue to make a valuable and loving contribution to our church for many years to come.

Thank you again

Courtenay

Daneen Akers - Wed, 11/11/2009 - 06:15

Thanks so much for this report and your thoroughly absorbing personal reflections--I wish I'd been there, but now I feel like I have a small sense of it.

Eddy Witzel - Wed, 11/11/2009 - 09:52

Dr Thompson,

Thank you for sharing some insight from the conference. Ellen White holds a warm spot in my heart. I have been blessed by her words. Yet at the same time I have good friends who are troubled by some of the evidence. I believe she was a prophet and a human. Humans are not perfect. There are plenty of Bible prophets who made mistakes. I'm glad to see serious dialog from such a diverse group of scholars. I can't wait to continue the discussion when we have infinite time and all the data! In the mean time, keep up the good work.

Eddy Witzel

bevin - Wed, 11/11/2009 - 10:33

Ah, if only the concepts and ideas that are expressed so well here were reflected in the actions of the GC, by the articles in the AR, and in the presentations from the pulpits and business meetings

/Bevin

pat travis - Wed, 11/11/2009 - 11:17

Alden,

"That led me to reflect on the accusation that has gone around that I share Desmond Ford’s “new theology.” Anyone who knows anything about theology would know that Ford and I come at theology from radically different directions."

This is very true Alden and those suggesting it was did so, I suggest, from "theological ignorance." I suggest you are a moderate to liberal theologian wheras Des is a conservative Protestant theologian.

Much of this difference is due also to the outworking and understanding of "Revelation/inspiration" that you hold.

"Her own settled position includes thought as well as person, but the crucial contrast is person instead of word. For me, it has been enormously freeing to be able to see the “person” as inspired rather than the “words.” That enables me to see everything in Scripture as “inspired” because the messages come through inspired persons. But those messages are not inspired “words” coming directly from God as absolute truth."

I believe Richard Davidson has properly stated that you overstate EGW on this point. The inspired individual is also inspired to use words that adequately transmits the thoughts and thus it "becomes the word of God." Words ARE important.

This "inspiration view" is closely associated with Berkhof's "organic inspiration."

I feel that SDA "conservative, moderate, and liberal" theologians do a disservice to scripture and the "faith once delivered" when attempting to explain Ellen's "errors" as some sort of parallel to the biblical writers. Many in this way, some puposefully and others ignorantly, undermine scripture as our final authority in this manner, I suggest, and rightfully appear "cultic" to Protestant onlookers. After all, the Bible should not be expected to be any better than Ellen's similar flaws... Absurd to me.

My free two pennies done for information purposes without malice. All indeed are free to believe what they choose to.

regards,
pat

Yaroslav - Wed, 11/11/2009 - 11:55

In addition to Alden's marvellous report I propose for all to read Jon Paulien's excellent posts about the Conference:
An Historic Event http://revelation-armageddon.com/2009/10/29/an-historic-event.aspx
An Historic Event II http://revelation-armageddon.com/2009/11/01/an-historic-event-ii.aspx
An Historic Event III http://revelation-armageddon.com/2009/11/06/an-historic-event-iii.aspx
An Historic Event IV http://revelation-armageddon.com/2009/11/11/an-historic-event-iv.aspx.

Arthur Patrick presented a report at San-Diego AF - http://tsdachurch.org/forum.htm. Patrick has prepared a paper that he regards as a backdrop for his November 14 presentation, entitled “The Reparenting of Seventh-day Adventists: Reflections on the Historical Development, Substance, and Potential of Ellen White Studies” - http://www.avondale.edu.au/Main::Research::Journal_Articles::Reparenting....

Non-adventist participants' posts about the Conference here: http://usreligion.blogspot.com/2009/10/buked-and-scorned-ellen-g-white-s..., http://usreligion.blogspot.com/2009/10/ellen-white-project-portland-main..., http://usreligion.blogspot.com/2009/10/writing-american-history-textbook....

In the context of the Conference I've found interesting David Larson's essay Natural and Religious: Ellen G. White and Ann Taves’ Interpretation of Dissociative Religious Experiences (http://ponderanew.typepad.com/blog/2009/08/david-r-larson--schuman-pavil...).

Read and enjoy!

Yaroslav Paliy

Tom Zwemer - Wed, 11/11/2009 - 16:56

As always, a very candid, readable, and understandable account of the sessions in Maine.

I was struck by your comments on Numbers a la the SS lessons.

We must read Moses not only as a leader of a people under God's guidance but the first public health officer. The mixing of the religious and the sanitary was necessary in Moses day. Now in the midst of the flue pandemic we can make more sense of many of those prohibitions.

No we shouldn't pick and choose, but we should understand and place in context of time and circumstances.

While we see the faulty reading in others, we fail to see the
faulty readings that established and defined and IJ and a final generation. If the stduy that was launched in Maine doesn't address those issues squarely, it will have failed. prayer or no prayer. Tom

Bonnie Dwyer - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 08:07

Thanks for the photos Jared. Now I feel like I was there.

David Neal - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 09:48

Thanks Alden

...for working without ceasing to "bring understanding" and more significantly for working life-long to bring people together, particularly in our faith community. Reading "Beyond Common Ground" has been a truly cathartic and spirit-filled experience. It's a must read for anyone who shares the value of growing together in Christ.

Carrol Grady - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 11:44

Wouldn't it be great if all difficult or controversial issues in the church could be discussed this way?!

Tom Zwemer - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:02

There is difficult work for these scholars, some not at all pleasant.

There are four writings that bear special attention.

Desire of Ages
The Great Controversy
Ministry of Healing
Education.

The first three have receive the most critical reviews.
It has been alleged and then confirmed that Ellen took the thoughts, if not the exact words, of other authors for herself. Particularly in Desire of Ages, The Great Controversy, and Ministry of Healing without proper attribution. Subsequent printings has corrected the major of such misuses.

However, the primary issue remains. Why did she not only copy, but why did she either state or infer that her information was from "I was there" or an Angel stood by my side!

An additional problem with the book Great Controversy is the beginning date. The book of Revelation reveals that heresy was in the church within the first Century. There is a serious gap in her history of the Great Controversy. The period prior to Constantine and the Waldenses. The foundational doctrine of the Church were established and defended in times not included in the volume.

Once I had most if not all of published works of E.G. White.
How I have Desire of Ages, Great Controversy, Ministry of Healing and Mount of Blessings. I must say each and all are more readable that the sources from which she abstracted. The major issue still not confronted is the implication, if not direct statement, that She was there and/or the angel at her side instructed her what to write.

If this group of scholars don't address these issues, their work is a wash.

Of all the American "Prophets" she comes the closest to orthodoxy, yet in critical areas she has been weighed in the balances and found wanting. What can scholarship do a century later to give her her due and yet correct the extra cononical misunderstandings she saw as fundamentals.

I don't think it will happen. It will be left to the reader to their own conclusions. Tom

rc - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:51

Am I the only one who does not know what Aldan Thompson means when he says:
--
He asked me where I saw myself on the “liberal/conservative” scale in Adventism. So I told him about my pie chart: I’m lemon pie; he’s pecan. We had great good godly fun talking about all that.
--

What does that mean, that Numbers is a super sweet gelled southern nut and Thompson a yellow tart covered with whipped egg white and slightly browned? I am having trouble even making the pies symbolic. Are there more Lemon Pies, mud pies or pecan pies and which one weight the most on the scales?

Ron

Rich Hannon - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 13:57

Ron: I suggest you turn to that great theologian Marie Callender for advice on this one.

pat travis - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 14:12

Ron,

It's called the "evasive pie."

pat

Elaine - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 14:34

Pat, I love the "evasive pie." Now, if you can tell us the ingredients, as I've tasted it before! Or, is it one of those "secret recipes"?

pat travis - Thu, 11/12/2009 - 14:52

Elaine,

You hear the "spin" of the recipes ingredients "beaters" on TV every day...from all sides. :~)

The solution, I believe is called integrity.

regards,
pat

David Conklin - Fri, 11/13/2009 - 10:48

>Several Adventist voices at the conference noted that Ellen White’s statements on inspiration include those published in Book 1 of Selected Messages (1958), one of which is a revision of a statement originally written by Calvin Stowe.

Look at the work Dr. Fortin has done on this claim. Ellen White used some of the words of Dr. Stowe, but flipped the concept "inside out" as it were. While using some of his very words, she totally re-cast what it means to be inspired! Very interesting to read!

David Conklin - Fri, 11/13/2009 - 10:52

>It has been alleged and then confirmed that Ellen took the thoughts, if not the exact words, of other authors for herself

If you look at the evidence very carefully, you find that the amount she used was about 3%. Fair use is around 10%. Plus, if you read Robert Macfarlane's work "Original Copy: Plagiarism and Originality in Nineteenth-Century Literature" you'll find that they had no problem with borrowing per se. The only question would be how much (verbatim as not allowed) and what did you do with what you borrowed (if you put it in a new context and/or polished it, then that was acceptable).

frank7 - Fri, 11/13/2009 - 11:38

David C.,

If you look at Fred Veltmann's source study(his area of expertise) of a fifteen chapter section of the Desire of Ages, comissioned by the GC and taking eight years to complete, you'll find that he concluded that 31% of the contents were either copied verbatim, borrowed thought for thought, or were at least literary references without credit. This is ten times the number you sited, 3%, which is typically claimed. And Veltmann was someone with no axe to grind, which is probably why the GC commissioned him. He was simply after accuracy and the truth of the matter.

Also, if plagarism was no issue, then why did the church run into problems with "Sketches of the Life of Paul?" Apparently, the original authors were not well pleased with seeing portions of their work appearing elsewhere with no credit given.

In the end, what matters is the content itself... is it solidly Christian in and of itself. But it would be nice if we were able to just admit the extent of the difficulty surrounding how it got put into its final form without apologies. It's about accuracy and truth, something that we as Adventists often make a big deal about.

Thanks...

Frank

James Becraft - Fri, 11/13/2009 - 23:31

Superb account of an important event in the history of my faith community, the place where the discussion is taking place--hopefully on essentials most of the time.

With such peaceful behaviors in evidence between so many discordant, differentiated attitudes and strongly argued beliefs between believers/non-believers, maybe Seventh-day Adventists and friends could sponsor discussions between Muslims, Jews, and Christians about what God is really like and come out unscathed in the dealings with the churched, the synagogued, and the mosqued--and those who don't give a rip about any of them.

I say this because I find it rather arrogant that many "Christian" Adventists can't seem to see that maybe the likes of Muhammad and Maimonides or Hillel were not inspired in some legitimate fashion. Is not to think otherwise a denigration of God--after all HE/She made humans to be creative and think about metaphysic?

As a descendant of the 5th generation of people who generally thought Ellen White was pretty cool--and who often have carried a bit of holy water for her and the Work, I simply can't see why we can't relax and enjoy ourselves and concentrate on the fundamentals of love and community as most simply espoused in the monotheistic tradition: 1) By the Messiah, 2) the Law Transcriber Moses, and 3) the Messenger of Peace Muhammad calling us to submit on the Right Path to the One. Taking into account San Pablo might be a good idea, too. Like Elllen most seem to have been quite substantially flesh and blood yet carried some divine ideas, the Water of Life.

The testimony of Ellen White as a messenger of Love continues to be worthy of study, it seems, with all her strengths and blemishes. She was fully in a prophetic tradition calling for love, grace, and good work--righteousness and wholeness, salud, salut, salvation, and maybe good humor, too.

Scholarship is a grand adventure. Teasing out disagreements are good for learning, but they will never displace the thoughtful, generous spirit you noted at the conference. Wonderful. What a blessed experience it must have been.

Would not the messengers noted above calling for Covenant agree with the modus operandi of the attendees. Sounds like Grace obtained.

So kudos to those participating. But, frankly---smiling-- I look forward to the day when Adventist mystics--Christians, Jews, and Muslims--can help attract people to conferences in Providence, Rio, Rome, or Rangoon to discuss God's character and Paradise Regained--and not get buried in minutiae.

There might even be a robust discussion or two about the Trinity, the Sabbath, the entrancing behavior of prophets in general. Of course, the conference should be on the Sabbath Day. The Torah should be read, and the Fatiha, and maybe even Steps to Christ. The attendees might even experience Peace, Salaam, and Unity--and laugh a whole lot listening to Ron Numbers before it was all done and over with prayer by Alden Thompson, a man of Peace.

J Anderson - Fri, 11/13/2009 - 23:37

Alden, thanks for taking the time to share this. Your insights are incredible and noteworthy.

That a conference such as this could take place within my lifetime is very encouraging. I've seen much happen within Adventism since my 1971 conversion. This conference is definitely a top-ten highlight. I can hardly wait for the book to be published.

Keep up the great work, Dr. T! You and your talent for teaching, speaking, and writing with such clarity and passion are much appreciated. Thank you!

John Anderson
Yucaipa, California

Michael - Sat, 11/14/2009 - 00:25

As to EGW using other peoples "words" or variations of.
How many of you have seen the movie flash of genius? About the guy who invented intermittant wipers?
The auto makers tried to do that for years and failed.
When it went to court and they showed how simple his design was they tried to say it wasn't his idea even though it was because his solution was so elementary and simple. So he asked for a dictionary to be brought into the courtroom and asked the witness to explain the differences of a dictionary which had all the words, and the book a tale of 2 cities.

The other example is mathematical proofs. A person can get from A to B with a certain proof and from C to D with another.
When someone is working on a very complex proof they dont cut it from whole cloth new and virgin. They use bits of previous theories to go from point to point.
Same with working with a rubics cube. Certain known patterns can accomplish certain goals, yet each rubics cube mix up is entirely unigue.
Another corollary is lawyers. They can make any contract and 2 people may want to sign but each contract has many boilerplate clauses.

Michael

MIke MacLennan - Sun, 11/15/2009 - 22:21

Also, if plagarism was no issue, then why did the church run into problems with "Sketches of the Life of Paul?" Apparently, the original authors were not well pleased with seeing portions of their work appearing elsewhere with no credit given.
In the end, what matters is the content itself... is it solidly Christian in and of itself. But it would be nice if we were able to just admit the extent of the difficulty surrounding how it got put into its final form without apologies. It's about accuracy and truth, something that we as Adventists often make a big deal about.
Thanks...
Frank
Posted by: frank7 (not verified) | 13 November
2009 at 6:38

It's time for the SDA church leaders to insist in putting the footnotes in the major works of Ellen White like "The Desire of Ages." A cult will never do that! A church will. When asked about why Ellen White didn't give credit to the authors she copied from, Ellen White replied that she had expected the publishers to have done it. Okay. So when are we going to do it? Look the SDA church right now is marketing the idea that Ellen White is the exclusive source of these books, and no credit is given to the authors that she copied from, and that is a wrong, because when the members eventually learn the truth about how her books were written, people leave the church.

Tom Zwemer - Mon, 11/16/2009 - 07:45

How could the publishers have done than if not given the citations? Tom

Without any academic credentials, Ellen White had to manufactur her own. Visions, an angel stood by my side, I was shown. The Omega of apostasy with be to make of none effect the Spirit of Prophecy. The Maine Project will be the Omega is the White Lie wasn't.

Read John R. W. Stott, Phillip Yancey for some up lifting
Holy Spirit guided evangelism.

The Bible doesn't tell us and science doesn't know how old the world is. But each one of us knows the condition our soul is in. It is not a debatable issue. Without the Christ event we are all lost. He is our Righteousness--it is the rebellion against pietism and triumphalism that is killing the Seventh-day Adventist Church. To make of none effect Ellen G. White is the Alpha of a new beginning in Christ Jesus. Tom

Michael - Mon, 11/16/2009 - 09:16

--it is the rebellion against pietism and triumphalism that is killing the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Posted by: Tom Zwemer | 16 November 2009 at 2:45

You might want to proof read your stuff. I dont think this says what you want it to say..

Michael

Rachel Davies - Tue, 11/17/2009 - 16:09

Ron, Pat, Elaine, Others:

Below is a brief description of Dr. Thompson's pie. For a longer description and small diagram, follow this link:
http://www.wallawalla.edu/fileadmin/user_upload/theology/Alden_Thompson/...

For a full description and detailed diagram, read chapters 12 and 13 of Dr. Thompson's new book "Beyond Common Ground: Why Liberals and Conservatives Need Each Other."

The Four Kinds of Pie

The merging of two types in each of the four quadrants yields the four kinds of pie, representing four kinds of church members and four biblical perspectives:

1. Proverbs: Apple Pie. These are the people who love answers and revel in the company of other people. By far the most dominant personality in church circles, Apple Pie Christians thrive in a world of pot lucks and Proverbs. The kind of practical wisdom found in Proverbs makes such good sense and church pot lucks are so much fun. One pastor told me of a woman who was so eager to join the church that she was ready to skip the Bible studies. “Just tell me what to believe and I’ll believe it,” she exclaimed. “I want to belong.” Practical, buoyant, and helpful, these sociable people are the backbone of the church.

2. Jeremiah: Vegetable Pie. These double conservatives are very serious about their religious beliefs and practices. The pure type would be best represented by Job’s early experience when he could still exclaim, “The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”7 But, as Job discovered, that stiff upper lip is not easily maintained. After seven days of silence in the presence of his friends, “Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth.”8 Many of those in this quadrant have been converted from a life of unrestrained pleasure. Their search for God has moved them so far in the opposite direction that anything that looks good, tastes good, or feels good is a cause for concern. Vegetable pie, a pie without sugar, indeed a pie that isn’t even dessert, symbolizes the ascetic impulse that so easily surfaces in this quadrant. Jeremiah fits better than Job here because Jeremiah knew what it was to live an unhappy, austere life and wasn’t afraid to say so.

3. Paul: Lemon Pie. Fully aware of the pain and complexity of our troubled world, the Lemon Pie people are still keenly aware of God’s inescapable presence in their life and in the world. For them, the presence of God is the sugar that turns lemons into lemon pie. They are exploratory and eager to ask their questions. But, like Paul, they sense when it is time to shut up and let God be God.

4. Ecclesiastes: Pecan Pie. These double liberals are most at risk in the church. They may be as fully aware of the church’s shortcomings as the double conservatives. But they don’t have a stomach for the fight and simply slip away after dark. They are drawn to the rich nuances of human culture in music, literature, art, drama. But because the world often makes no sense, they resonate with the puzzled wisdom of Ecclesiastes. They will be faithful to God, but from a distance. Pecan Pie is the dessert of choice here, perhaps the richest of deserts, a dessert where a little goes a long ways.

Bill Sorensen - Tue, 11/17/2009 - 17:37

And then of course, we have "cow pies". Which is the ingredient used in Ezekiel's bread in chapter 4.

And this is the "pie" most people are most familar with in biblical discussions.

Either because they don't know the bible, or don't care, and don't want to know. And all of us "hope" we are right, even if we are not. And "hope" it won't make a difference, even if we are wrong.

Bill Sorensen

PLM - Wed, 11/18/2009 - 09:41

"I often feel lonely in Adventism because it is so hard to find a community that is both exploratory and devout."

I found this statment by Dr. Thompson to be very revealing of the state of Adventism for a thinker and scholar. A bittersweet personal glimpse into Dr. Thompson's soul. While he rejects apple pie as descriptive of himself, perhaps this is actually what he longs for: a pie that combines a search for truth with community (strawberry rhubarb?). Devoutness and simplicity with depth and continuing the search for truth. Passionate and enthusiasm community embracing all with open discussion.

His admittance to loneliness in the Adventist community raises the question of whether Adventism can provide the warm, open community that feeds the soul. Perhaps that is the ultimate irony that the Alden Thompsons of the Adventist world face. Perhaps Ron Numbers faced that long ago; perhaps they share this ironic common tie. Alden Thompson stayed in Adventism and finds it a lonely place. Ron Numbers has distanced himself yet continues his interest in inquiry and his "at-a-distance" connection with religiosity.

In another camp we have the Tom Zwemers (and perhaps many who come to these Spectrum pages), thinkers, inquirers, and devout Christians who maintain focused, solid faith in Jesus and His grace while participating at the fringe now in Adventist community.

Why is it difficult to find community in Adventism, a place that launches many who inquire, think, and remain devout but find themselves uncomfortable and even not accepted in Adventist community?

Tom Zwemer - Wed, 11/18/2009 - 12:41

Michael

You react you do not respond. What are you afraid of? Does your scarcasm advance the Gospel? If so how? I have been there and done that--the whole nine yards of Adventism. There is only one word to describe it: Ichabod! Until St. Louis, Spectrum and voices like yours are the only evidence we have of the death of a misunderstanding of Oct. 22, 1844.

I simply believe that in the beginning God, and that in the ending God plus those whose faith is built upon nothing less than Jesus Christ and His Righteousness.

Challenge me, defame me, deride me, scoff me, denigrate me. insult me, The bottom-lime remains the same. "If I (Jesus Christ) be lifted up I will draw all men to me." I have been drawn to Him as my Redeemer and the Man who is God. My witness is to Him alone for His creative power, creative genius, redemptive Love, and saving Grace for all who will accept Him without one plea. No Red Books, No Bible Conferences, no witch hunts, no pope under the bed. Tom

frank7 - Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:07

It's time for the SDA church leaders to insist in putting the footnotes in the major works of Ellen White like "The Desire of Ages."

**************************************************************

Mike...

I wouldn't hold my breath.

Thanks...

Frank

Michael - Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:11

Tom
You are not thinking. I have no quarrel with your post/s.
I and I am sure all others have come to know your views on this.
You are against triumphalism. You think the SDA church is triumphalistic.

Now to your statement.

--it is the rebellion against pietism and triumphalism that is killing the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Posted by: Tom Zwemer | 16 November 2009 at 2:45

Here you say it is THE REBELLION AGAINST triumphalism that is killing the church.
I thought you were all for rebelling against triumphalism. Am I wrong? Do you now like triumphalism? Do you now like pietism?

Do you see whats going on?
It is about your English and communication that I made my query. In your confusion about English you interpreted it to be a insult. There was no sarcasm. I suggested you proof read your piece. And yet you go off on 1844 as if it was some sort of answer to this topic?

I would hope that you can see here a good example of how confused some of your stuff has been lately in terms of comprehension and sensitivity.
You even thought Pat was challenging you the other day, which he was not. Pat has the most respectful and mellow conversations on spectrum and I wish I was more like him in many ways.

Michael

Joselito Coo - Wed, 11/18/2009 - 13:29

Michael,
Based on what I know about Tom from previous posts, I understood him as saying: "... it is [triumphalism] and the rebellion against pietism that is killing the Seventh-day Adventist Church."

Tom Zwemer - Wed, 11/18/2009 - 14:32

Michael Please

The Seventh-day Adventist Church has a pietistic and triumphalistic mein. The generations who followed in that pathway are rebeling againsts that mind-set. They either poke fun of it as at PUC, ignore it as a LSU, either way, the fifth generation is voting with their feet. The church is growing if one counts membership. But where? Amazing Facts is considered a joke on Spectrum, as is Cliff. The drop in tithe in the North American Division preceded the stock market collapse. The last true scholar in Adventism just retired from Walla Walla. Ron Numbers is now the saint of Adventist scholars.
There just is no there there! Tom

frank7 - Wed, 11/18/2009 - 15:27

Michael...

I had no difficulty understanding what Tom meant. I don't understand the problem.

Thanks...

Frank

joe drader - Sat, 12/05/2009 - 03:02

All this week ending December 5, 2009 outsider insider mail
has arrived. Upsidedown USA capital building frontcover on Newsweek for December 7 2009 issue titled How Great Nations Fall.And the AIDSof culture and South African polygamy results, and of course National Sunday Law Revisited. There is no PDF Adobe Suite on this Windows xp dsl so I won't be paying $50 dollars for its year long flash advertisement on the monitor for http://www.sdasundaylaw.org principles of prophetic interpretation of Wakeup America Seminars. With them is that there is no solar year of 12-30 day months 360 day year basis when the solar year is 365 days. 1260 year day reckoned as after 1798, etc. No josiah Litch accuracy etc.And it is all logical. There is no basis for the year day interparetaion for prophecy. But you know the 360 day year I think may have fitted very well By the fulfillments of events. 360 year was an invention of SDAs.
Nice that King Henry the V111 was not a lateral polygamous though a murderer is worse. That whites in south Africa are monogamous though they have more wives in a lifetime is ok with me. Scientists have linked AIDS 19.9 percent with blacks while only .05 with whites. Many wives at the same time is a superhighway for AIDS. Blacks are many wifed at the same time. But whites started AIDS with it silent ridering on the Polio Vaccine inoculated in 200,000 subsaharan blacks anyway. My cousin in Canada said there was a Jamaican around there that spoke of his mistress.
It is nice to be tall by sunlight and be the originator
of all the sound if not racket around. That is what the
intellegence of "a man of letters" has as a farmer who sees
all nature wears One Universal Grin.

david baer - Tue, 12/15/2009 - 03:19

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You helping a lot of PPL thanks for your golden ideas about home based jobs.

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Lisa Hyppa - Mon, 12/28/2009 - 08:19

"Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed....There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation." (Councils to Writers and Editors p.35 E.G.White) Errogance and Ignorance are killers of Gods Truth. It will be a remnant people not a church who will give the final message to the whole world. The 5 doctrines are Salvation by Faith, The sabbath, Soul Sleep, Sanctuary, Second coming. Prophecy is always understood more clearly on or about the time it is to happen....The trumpets (all 7) are about to blow and the SDA church teaches that they've already happened. How disappointing when they see they are happening now. Holy Spirit will be poured out on 144K people to spread the 3 angels message when the censure is cast down. They will believe the 5 doctrines of the Bible and whether they are SDA or not is irrelevant. To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according....there is no light in them. Jesus speaks of the churches as Synagouges of Satan. Because half truth is a lie. Search the scriptures to show thyself approved. Amen....God forgive us our sins individually and corperately.....Revelation is about to be fulfilled. If we stubbornly refuse to see then God grant us the choice...as it was in the days of Noah...

joseph drader - Sat, 01/02/2010 - 02:03

Hi Intelligent Ones;

I like the Lisa Hyppa statement of The Five S Doctrines. There is the The Sabbath and not only sabbath that is important to live better and holier. And there is the worthlessness of mentioning it before those who are adults and never heard the word in their life. To me it means to do better too like giving attention to healing as Jesus did and just being
where there are people present.

But I change the Second Coming to SECOND REturn and I notice the capital case of the font. That is mostly the greek in the NT only the word coming is used to translate it. Revelation has the word arrival but the word "return" is the word for nearly all the "comings". From east to west and left to right and the ramifications on the projections to others the movement
causes again back to us. Think of it in translation what a lot of the atoms are caused to do from our think tank choices or as the word is the influences of the holy spirit.
That is, hagia pneumia. Not exact spelling but I like the sound of it. It is so humanly common. Hagia pneumia. From the smallest atom to the largest universe all ... a sphere
of influence of turning each of us is.

Few of us can say when we may die. It is said Nobody knows when their time is up. Pneumonia is a disease one can be given his Soul Sleep from. Pneumonia is translatable as airiel influence. It is in the air or not that the time to
die arrives. Perfect mal air of 43-68 degrees fahrenheit and relative humidity less than 50% keeps the virus afloat for its replication breathed in and its celebration diet of iron in the body and I guess church air can be like that too. I don't want to tell you to not go to mals or churches for there are far worse places.

Cheers. East to west a long time before is better I think and may that be always for good and not another.

re

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