Elaine said:

"There's something about religion that allows people to do evil things; things they would never do without that defense."

That "something" proves to be transgenerational and self-perpetuating, as well as physiologically, psychologically and anatomically stunting, sadly.

Quite beyond the physical pain, it frightens and child and breaks relationship continuity, which can actually cause brain damage.

"The message a toddler gets from a slap or spanking is that a parent or other loved and trusted adult is prepared to induce pain and even do physical harm to force unquestioning obedience.

That's terrifying to a little kid...However well-intentioned, a slap registers as the shattering of the whole deal between parent and child.

Young children are left awash in feelings of fear, shame, rage, hostility, self-destructiveness and betrayal that they can't yet resolve or manage."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin4.htm

"Chronic stress sensitizes neural pathways and over-develops certain regions of the brain involved in anxiety and fear responses, and often results in the under-development of other neural pathways and other regions of the brain.

Children who experience the stress of physical or sexual abuse will focus their brains' resources on survival and responding to threats in their environment.

Children who experience the chronic stress of neglect-e.g., remaining hungry, cold, scared, or in pain-will also focus their brains' resources on survival.

This chronic stimulation of the brain's fear response means that the regions of the brain involved in this response are frequently activated. When they are, other regions of the brain, such as those involved in complex thought, can not also be activated and are therefore not "available" to the child for learning.

Chronic stress or repeated traumas can result in a number of biological reactions. Neurochemical systems are affected which can cause a cascade of changes in attention, impulse control, sleep, and fine motor control.

Chronic activation of certain parts of the brain involved in the fear response (such as the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal [HPA] axis) can "wear out" other parts of the brain such as the hippocampus, which is involved in cognition and memory.

Early experiences of trauma can also interfere with the development of the subcortical and limbic systems which can result in extreme anxiety, depression, and difficulty forming attachments to other people.

And chronic activation of the neural pathways involved in the fear response can create permanent "memories" which shape the child's perception of and response to his environment. While this adaptation may be necessary for survival in a hostile world, it can become a way of life that is difficult to change, even if the environment improves."

http://www.enotalone.com/article/9964.html

Also very troubling is that the "memories" formed preverbally are very inaccessible and drive behavior beyond conscious control unless help is obtained.

I'm sure Elaine and I (both grandmothers) agree that we should never, never scare children with religion. The chronic stress this creates is terribly damaging.

I'll be traveling, so I really am going to give it a rest. :)

BTW, Elaine, the key phrase in your post above is BRAIN FORMATION, I believe.

This is so hugely important for individual and societal health, not to mention the health of church fellowships, that it can scarcely be overstated, IMO.

The way we treat our children in their first years affects their brain structure.

Not just their brain functioning, but their BRAIN FORMATION.

And we are manifestly creating human beings with an "apocalyptic impulse," according to Philip Grevin.

The curse does not causeless come.

As I said on another blog a couple of years ago, I believe Waco was a shot across the bow of Adventism.

And, as Loren Siebold said recently:

19 April 2009: Remembering Waco

I was studying at San Francisco Theological Seminary (Presbyterian) in Marin County when this happened. In a D.Min. program a group of pastors of all faiths meets in a cohort to study together. The day this happened, I was meeting with my cohort at the seminary in San Anselmo. When I arrived, one of the other pastors turned to me and said, "These Branch Davidians—aren't they Seventh-day Adventists?" I quickly protested that they were not, though I felt a little guilty, because that was true only in a technical sense. They were in fact related to us: most came from our denomination, shared some of our beliefs, and used the writings of Ellen G. White.

It was sort of a Peter moment, except I wasn't denying my connection with Christ, but my connection with some nuts that I didn't want to be associated with and who I thought reflected badly on me—though my denial wasn't completely true.

Loren

Posted by: lorenseibold@am... | 23 April 2009 at 8:53
http://www.spectrummagazine.org/blog/2009/04/20/remembering_waco

I suggest that, at least in part, this totally understandable, reflexive recoiling from Waco is responsible for the "neutering of Adventism" that Dr. Knight decries.

The fears run deep.

I fear I have taken this thread where nobody wanted it to go, so I will let it rest.

I hope I have not offended.

By Maggie:

Elaine, that is so interesting! I think it's time we stop compartmentalizing religion as a thing apart from life itself.

It's got us into these endless discussion loops from hell on all the Adventist forums, don't you think?

The way we treat our children from (at least!) conception through their first few years has the power to change the world!

So much of what we call "sin" is the literal brain damage we have inflicted on our little ones though our ignorant, ham-fisted, if well-meaning parenting (by parents who have been brain-damaged themselves), it seems to me.

That's why I brought up the neurophysiology of attachment and trauma on the Ernie Knoll thread.

So much is being discovered in the last few years that could so profitably be applied to Christian fellowship and family life, I believe.

If SDAs want to be the head and not the tail, as EGW suggested, and if Jesus came to bring abundant life, early childhood is surely the Holy Grail that is meant to contain that abundant life.

Have you read Philip Grevin's Spare the Child?

Spare the Child The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse

It is precisely the character of American society that Mr. Greven, a professor of history at Rutgers University, uses to lend weight to his case against the physical punishment of children.

After all, he argues, America is an unusually angry, violent, crime-ridden society. The roots of that anger, he writes, lie in the country's Judeo-Christian heritage, which is so pervasive that the "values and viewpoints shaped by centuries of tradition and practice imprint even areas that we believe to be most remote from religious convictions and traditions."

Mr. Greven argues that the tradition of punishment in this country is connected to the "apocalyptic impulse in American Protestantism" and, moreover, that "corporal punishments" constitute "the linchpin of the abuse and violence that have always shaped the desire for the world's end and for the salvation of the few at the expense of the many" in that tradition.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/04/books/books-of-the-times-spoil-the-rod-and-spare-the-child.html

By Maggie:

Another way of stating this is the figure/ground relationship, perhaps.

Richard Nisbett, in The Geography of Thought speaks about differences in perception between Americans and Chinese. In a Nisbett study, the Americans focused longest on the prominent foreground object in a displayed picture and the Chinese focused longest on the background, i.e., the context of the prominent object. Note the 'Western' bias in this definition:

FIGURE
The part of a composition that we pay attention to is called figure.

GROUND
Everything that is not figure is ground.

http://daphne.palomar.edu/design/fandg.html

This may spring from the anatomy of our bipartite brains, I don't know. In any case, East and West combined might give us a sort of "binocular vision" it seems to me, just as input from both foxes and hedgehogs might, I think.

*Now* would be a really good time for this to happen in Adventism, it seems to me.

But...I seem to have killed this thread, so I'll be off. :)

By Maggie:

Jody said, "I don't want to be responsible for any inquirer's crash and burn...."

That pretty much explains the horniness of the horns, don't you think, Tom?

If you inhabited Jody's psyche, might you be feeling somewhat frantic for the fate of souls because of the goings-on here?

(I have inhabited a psyche in Jody's psychic neighborhood, so I'm sure I *would* be frantic. In fact, that part of me never went away - most inconvenient.)

So while you, Tom, understandably don't want to drive people away from God with the horns, Jody doesn't want people to crash and burn.

Truly the horns of a dilemma, and I think I see sterling motives on both sides.

And, actually, I see a proprietary bent on both sides also, if I'm not mistaken.

It's as if you both have dibs on the hapless unsaved.

Who should give in?

Should Jody let the unsaved crash and burn?

Should Tom let them be gored unmercifully?

Is Adventism a good home for baby Christians, or should He send in CPS?

Maybe they, the hapless unsaved, don't need that kind of attention, after all, and we should just get our act together and leave them to God's tender mercies?

I guess if you repeat something often enough it becomes your own narrow reality. After reading George Knight book and the evidence he presents to support his position I am baffled that someone would simply state, without any evidence, that 1844 has no biblical support. It seems to me that the book quite ably supports 1844 as a biblical teaching from the scriptures.

One of the speakers on the podcast suggests that Christ is at rest at the right hand of the Father. This, in his view, is the teaching of the book of Hebrews. He worries that he might be fired for stating something contrary to the teaching of the SDA church. He should be fired for a lack of knowledge of the Scripture.:) In the book of Hebrews, Christ is presented as a priest who is also a mediator. I must ask if Christ's mediation is limited to sitting at the right hand of the Father at rest? Moreover, one need only read the book of revelation to see if Christ is depicted as being at rest. In Rev. 2/3 he in with the 7 seven; in chapter 5-7 he unfolds the scroll. The point is that in the book of Revelation, Christ is depicted as active in working out salvation for his church.

Hamlet

A good source for getting the context of Daniel is Durnat's history series. He is very clear that the primary motivating factor of the Seventhy was the hellinization of Jewish youth in Jerusalem. Thus, they wrote Daniel to give the Jewish lads
their own heros. Of course they wrote in the three year desecration of the temple. Dan 8:14 etc.

As to Revelation. The Jesus was speaking directly to the Seven Churches--of course, they have universal application.

The SDA take is entirely proprietary--that is the rub.
The best read to get the context is John R. W. Stott" volume: "What Christ Thinks of the Church". Here is a critical passage: page 14 "Persecution, error, and sin. These were not just inexplicable phenomena. St. John recgnized their source with a clarity of insight which we badly need to recapture today. The devil was a work. Behind the outward situation of the Asian churches an invisible conflict raged between Christ and the Antichrist, between the Lamb and the Dragon, betwee "the holy city" Jerusalem(The Church) and "the great city" Babylon (the world). The devel's assault upon Christ's Church was a pincer movement. He attacked from several directions. Now the onslaught was physical, through a persecuting emperor and his deputies. Now it was intellectual through false cults, and now moral thrugh sub-Christian ethical standards. Those were the devil's three strategies, symoblically represented in the Revelation as the dargon's three allies: the beast from the sea, the beast from the earth (or false prophet) and the harlot (Balyon).

Tom

Hamelet
Thank you for your added enlightenment.

I might add my ponderings on the issue that either plagues or energizes the SDA Movement. It seems to me, the Knight was saying the institutional church and its message was running on empty.

No doctrine ever began with better intentions: The Return of Jesus, its timing and then its prerequisites. Emerging was a movement of great fervor, piety, hope and good works. But now well into the second century of that movement, the seventh and eight generations are compelled to reexamine the Scriptural premises upon which that movement was and remains based.

We first need to orient ourselves:

1. In Peter’s second letter he warns his readers that no prophecy of the scriptures is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1: 20.

2. Jesus scolded the scribes and Pharisees that they search the scriptures while ignoring Him to which all the scriptures testify. Recall that the first angel of Revelation 14 carries the Everlasting Gospel—nothing less than the Covenant of Redemption—known to Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, Daniel, Malachi, and John the Baptist.

3. Thus both Old and New Testaments must be interpreted in the light of the Christ event. Christ is the Alpha and Omega of our salvation. Calvary represents the inaugural Eschaton (It is finished) and the Parusia the consummate Eschaton. (Behold I come quickly)

We live in the Assurance of His acceptance and of His appearing.

4. The Movement that emerged and persisted out of the Great Disappointment of 1844 holds dear three Biblical passages: Daniel 8:14; Hebrews 10; and Revelation 14: 6-10. The first led them into the Great Disappointment and the second and third are attempts to find their way out.

4. Daniel 8:14 has been adequately addressed as being met in the Greek era. (Glacier View--rejected that proposition)

5. Hebrews 10 is a resounding affirmation that we have an Advocate with the Father. An Advocate with a curriculum vitae unmatched in the universe. One whose entry into the Holy of Holies is announced in Psalms 24! The Writer to the Hebrews places Christ as our High Priest in the Holy of Holies in the first century A.D.

6. The third Scripture has been appropriated as unique to those who emerged out of the Great Disappointment—even in the face of Peter’s admonition against private interpretations.

7. Thus, we would be well advised to parse those few lines of Scripture to learn their universal application.

Revisiting The Three Angels Messages
Revelation 14: 6-10

Rev. 14: 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. KJV

1. Verse 6 tells us that the Everlasting Gospel exists. It existed before time “The Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.” The Christ Event is now history. It is also presently Good News that salvation is offered to all those who dwell on the earth.

2. Verse 7 tells us that the Good News of Christ's victory over sin and death brings each one to the critical moment of decision or judgment. Is God who is says He is, or is God who the Devil says He is? The critical hour, the moment to decide for the good or evil side is now man's. The rest of the universe has come to consensus that God is Just and the Justifier of those who believe. The judgment addressed in Revelation 14 is the verdict of the outcome of the contest between Christ and Satan (The Great Controversy) was decided at Calvary. Now it is time for every rational creature to decide for or against Jesus Christ as the winner in that contest. The hour of His Judgment is come—now is the moment to decide for the good or evil side!

The point is simply: one cannot hear the Gospel—the full story of the Christ event without having to make a choice, a decision, a judgment. Is the Christ event "true" history? Was that event necessary? Was that event sufficient? That is, was the event sufficient not only to settle the Great Controversy but to settle my personal redemption?

3. Verse 7 goes on to declare that a decision in favor of God compels adoration, love, gratitude, and worship.

4. Verse 8 tells us that when Christ cried out: "It is finished" Babylon fell! The prince of this world had been unmasked and dethroned. His claim to and his hold on the earth has been broken.

5. Verse 9-10 tells us that to give support, honor, obeisance, allegiance, and/or worship to the adversary of Heaven is to share in his fate: be that support physical or intellectual, the fate is the same: symbolized by a “mark” in the forehead or in the hand indicating intellectual consent and/or material aid.

7. Therefore, the message of the Three Angels of Revelation 14 is a validation of AD 33 rather than some future date derived from complex numerology of Old Testament Apocalyptic literature.

8. Thus, Revelation 14:6-10 is not a proprietary Scripture, but an open invitation and assurance to any and all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Thus the Investigative Judgment was built upon enthusiasm without proper exegesis and is sustained by a futuristic eisegesis by a few zealots unwilling to admit an error.

Any Gospel built upon a yet unfinished work of Jesus Christ is neutered. Tom

I wonder if 3ABN has said anything on Knights book or interviewed or reviewed the book. I actually think it is right up their alley. But maybe since he is not an end time perfection believer they might hold that against him.

Ron

Judy

If you found assurance and tranquility in 3ABN you surely didn't share it on this thread. Peace and best wishes for
a pleasant life journey. If you see my name and it troubles you--just pass by on the other side.

If you are truly interested in what Christ thinks of the Seven Churches of Revelation, I suggest you purchase and read John R. W. Stott's book "What Christ Thinks of the Church." It will blow your mind. Tom

Tom Z.

"We Spectrumites just want to de-horn not neuter. Contemporary evangelism is like a horned bull in a china closet."

Sorry, Spectrumites have the horniest horns I have ever seen in Christian circles. Dehorn by bashing heads seems to be the tactic? Contemporary evangelism is like a breath of fresh air in the silly putty world. I pray inquirers of the faith don't stop in Spectrumland -- rather, they tune into an evangelist on 3ABN. I don't want to be responsible for any inquirer's crash and burn in the name of psudo-intelligent "discussion."
Jody ;)

Hamlet,

Amen and Amen.

Hamlet wrote:

"Sadly I have found out that a few people dominate the posts ad infinitum and bore/irritate others who were discussing the topic. It's almost tragic."

This blog is always open to those who wish to post. No one, insofar as they are civil, has been excluded. If you tire of reading the same names, you can contribute as much or a little as you like, and if you find some irritating, that is what we all risk encountering if we post to the web. No one is preventing your contributions, are they?

There is a Balm in Gilead

Chapter Five of the Gospel according to Matthew opens with: “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: and he opened his mouth and taught them----

Luke ends his Gospel story with the walk to Emmaus with Jesus beginning at Moses and all the prophets he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. (Luke 24: 27)

Matthew ends his Gospel story with the command of Jesus” “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them----Matt 28: 19, 20 first part.

Evangelism is teaching all things about Jesus: The Alpha and Omega of our existence. He made us and He Redeemed us. We are doubly His.

So where do we start? Why we start where the people are: in their work, in their homes, in their future, in their interests, in their concerns. That might be gas prices, or obesity, or mortgages, or car payments, or doctor bills. It is not likely to be what is the meaning of 666? Or what does the dragon with ten horns represent?

It isn’t even where did I come from? Why am I here? Or even where do I go when I die?

It is most likely: “How do I get out of this rat race with a whole skin?”

People worldwide are the walking wounded of 21st century. They don’t even know how deep those wounds are.

The prosperity model of evangelism clogs the cable rather than a Gospel that heals where it really hurt.

Years ago, a mountain man came to the University of Kentucky, Medical Center complaining of severe stomach pain. At the start of what was to be thorough examination revealed a large cancerous tumor on the roof of his mouth. Immediately, the medical staff focused on the roof of the patient’s mouth; ignoring completely, the patient’s chief complaint. After three day days of being rushed from one clinic or lab to another with the same stomach ache he complained of upon entry, the man got up, dressed, and walked home. “Those guys in Lexington don’t even know how to fix a sick stomach!”

The world needs evangelism that gave Horatio Gates Spafford the Grace to pen “Peace Like a River” after learning of the drowning deaths of his four daughters in the sinking of the Ville de Havre off Newfoundland; revelation that gave Paul the Grace to pen “I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day;” evangelism that gave slaves the Grace to pen “There’s a Balm in Gilead”; evangelism that gave John Newton the Grace to write Amazing Grace!

If there was ever a time to introduce America to Psalms 46 and 91 it is now. If the theme is “It Is Written” then let us share some writing with hope and redemption in it.

How does one cope when the levee breaks? How does one cope when wild fire levels ones home? How does one cope when they get an eviction notice? How does one cope with a pink slip in the last pay envelope? How does one cope when a uniformed military officer brings a note that reads “The War Department regrets to inform you?”

The primary hurt is not over money, or central planning, nor the marginalization of local pastors. The problem is there is no there there! Where is: “I serve a risen Savior, He’s in the world today”?

Christ is depicted in Revelation as standing at an open door inviting each one of us in. It is His Church that should be welcoming the stressed souls of the world: welcoming them in for healing and sending them out to serve.

We sing: “I Love to Tell the Story” with great gusto but when and where was the last time we told it; and to when? If we “have this hope burning within our hearts” let us set someone else on fire for Christ!

No, the Gospel will not prevent a foreclosure. but it will help one cope with the fall-out of such a calamity.

In the years between 1930 and 1946, Psalms 46 and 91 were frequent morning worship readings in the Zwemer family. Now at 84 I read a lot of Paul as well as David. Yes, I read Desire of Ages, Ministry, The Review, Christianity Today, Stott, Yancey—not to find loop holes—or plagiarisms but to understand more completely
Jesus Christ and His plan for my life. Having found it why not share it with one bound down with legalisms borrowed from the self-righteous clerics that killed my Lord?

Why not share it with the guy with an SVU that drinks $3.00 a gallon gasoline and lives 30 miles from a job that pays the same as when gasoline was a dollar-five.

The place to start giving answers is when you know the question.
The question is: “Is there any light at the end of this tunnel?” No better answer can be found than in the Promise of Jesus to come again and take us to the house He has prepared. Not that He’s coming again to “burn” all those who doubt the guy with the remote control on a power point projector with a 19th century message. Tom

Fred
I am glad your view of Takoma Park is a "mecca" of Adventism. After living there for over 10 years, I would probably describe it in different words--"ghetto" perhaps rather than mecca. You also sound like you had parents with a good perspective of religious life and who knew what really was important.

And Hansen, lots of the same type of stuff you describe with the "outsiders" who came into the church (regretfully you also used some other rather derogatory terms as well) and the heathen outside the church (also very derogatory), also happened in the Takoma Park enclave, with many GC and other good SDA families that lived there in the mecca as Frank described it. Drugs were pretty common on that campus as well as plenty of other behavior that was not very kosher. Bottom line, I really would not doubt the survey that Frank discusses. Guilt can cause a lot of behavior that sometimes is manifested in violence or other behavior due to frustration--and I hate to say it, but Adventists are often very full of guilt. If you feel you will never measure up, then why put the effort into a losing proposition. Or if you continue to participate, then it will be an endless up and down experience--highs as well as severe lows. I have been there and done that and am trying to finally stop that cycle.

What bothers me the most is that it appears that some of the same doctrines that I believe helped to contribute to that sense of frustration and guilt are still fundamental doctrines in the SDA church--despite their very questionable biblical authority. I am sure that is why Tom and Elaine and others still interact in this forum. I have had multiple SDA relatives who have been rebaptized several times due to unresolved guilt--who have been very active in the church in multiple ways. My mother, who has done everything right that she thought she should, who only reads EGW, the Bible and SDA literature, still at times doubts her own salvation and is not sure of what will happen when her name comes up when the "books" are examined--(a rather archaic term BTW--don't you think that heaven has a better, more modern system of record keeping.) There is something that is fundamentally wrong with a religion that continues to promote that much guilt and unease with its most active and religious participants. That is the burden that I am sure they have for an organization that they also have a had such a long history with as I do. As has been mentioned often--too much Daniel and Revelation (wrongly interpreted) and not enough of the gospel that Jesus taught and lived.

Hansen,

Because you may not know of, or be familiar with these victims (most are very reluctant to share with their pastor or most intimate friends), I have known of well-respected church elders who for years abused their spouses, and elders as well as pastors who have both abused other members as well as minor children. Who is the child to turn to? Who reports her pastor?

Denial has too long been practiced, and as the study shows, it is even more frequently seen in Christian homes because of their theological perspective: we are supposed to be above sins--and those are usually the ones externally observed, not those in the privacy of one's home. Physical abuse can often be identified by bruises, etc.; verbal abuse has far lasting scars on the psyche.

It would not be surprising if the fundamentalist religions, and most Adventists are so defined, are the worst abusers simply because of their "perfectionist" tendencies. Secret sins are the most abhorent because they are unseen and frequently very underreported.

As for the research from Fordham, what kind of measuring stick was used to determine just who an Adventist is? Many people who describe themselves as Adventists are recent "converts" brought into the church through those horrible Evangelistic crusades. The very nature of the people attracted to the denomination through these efforts indicate troubled and perhaps personality disordered individuals trying to make sense of already messed up lives.

That they continue to drink or smoke or beat their wives after "conversion" should not come as a surprise, considering that many were never truly converted. How could they be, when the gospel was not preached during the crusade through which they were won to the "truth."

Unfortunately, Adventism is not a substitute for, nor is it necessarily synonymous with, good breeding. Many of those who came into the church from "outside" came in with numerous issues that take a lifetime to resolve. Few people from the better classes of society are interested in Adventism.

In short, an organization that attracts losers is going to have a fair share of the problems which attend being a loser.

**************************************************************

Hansen...

From what the presenter informed us, the sampled group included much of what would be considered areas with a strong Adventist presence...including the seminary! IOW, many long time Adventists were part of the study...not just newly converted "losers" as you so elegantly stated.

Whether such behavior is attributable to those who are not converted among our ranks doesn't really matter in the end. We have no way of knowing who is and who isn't...the wheat and the weeds grow together in the church. But, the bottom line, is that within the confines of the Adventist church, we have a real problem. And it needs to be admitted and addressed for the welfare of all, converted or not.

I'm not saying that Adventism is a wreck. I was merely addressing the fact that your original post made it sound like that if one was raised Adventist, as opposed to being raised as "a Gentile dog," they wouldn't have the same problems. And your latest post reinforces the same notion. Well, that just isn't so! We need to open our eyes! Defensiveness over the problem, or looking to consign it to a "problem group" within the church will simply keep us mired in it.

Your reply again displays the inability or lack of desire to admit that our community has just as many problems as the world out there. It also displays a real arrogance towards the "unwashed newbies" who come in after leading lives of "dissipation." It's an "immigrant" problem! How dare you! I myself was one of those people who came in from "out there."

The problems of addiction and abuse cut across all strata of Adventism, from clergy to laity...from converts to life-long and cultural Adventists. Yesterday's presenter has had this affirmed by the research done by her team. Carol Cannon's book is an eye opener on this issue as well.

Our knowledge of how to handle addiction and abuse within the Christian and Adventist community has been woefully inadequate. We have traditionally reduced treating such complex spiritual, emotional, psychological and social issues to reductionist and simplistic solutions...as if the hearing of the correct theological packaging of the gospel will automatically create an immunity to such diseases. Yes it helps, but in fact, the gospel goes beyond correct presentation and simplistic theological solutions to a wholistic treatment of the whole person. I dare say, it extends to a treatment of a willing community that will honestly acknowledge its need together as wounded healers, so that we might walk the road of recovery together.

Thanks...

Frank

How many SDAs have noticed that almost all prophecies already fulfilled have turned out to be understood alegorically. And their actual fulfillment has been recognized as more striking than anybody previously could imagine, in spite of being allegorcal instead of literal. However, almost all future prophecies are still interpreted as literal in our church, and this principle for interpretaion has always changed as soon as fulfillment has been recognized. This change follows as time continues, and this gives us some reason to beleive that for example the literal resurrection of the unjust and their gathering around the holy city and their throwing in the lake of fire as well as the bodily appearance of Christ in the sky etc.c may be a misunderstandig because these events should be understood alegorically in accordance with our experience through history. What do you thing about that? Should we take a hard look at our traditional interpretation of the future prophecies and think over what should be preached to the people? Isn't our first duty to realize the Kingdom of God in our own lives to the benefit of our fellow men and our community here and now, and leave the future to God who is the only one who knows the future?

Thanks Dave:

Each died with assurance and with hope in the Resurrection. Each lived a full and productive life. We miss them, none the less. Thanks you for your loving concern. We keep in close touch with the surviving spouses. Thank you for your prayers. You know we also miss a great firend in Dr. Bruce Rice. Tom

Tom

You write: "I have lost four brothers-in-law in the past 18 months and one sister-in-law."

I cannot begin to imagine what you and your wife must have been feeling during the last year and a half!

Were I in Georgia, and if you let me, I would give you a big hug. That not being possible, please know that you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Dave

I would add one more thought. Christ's intercessory ministry is much more on the side of "interceding on behalf of the Father" who has been misrepresented from the beginning by "Satan" and not so much on interceding on our behalf with a "wrathful" God!! The white robe of Christ's righteousness that God sees us in is symbolic of our belief in and acceptance of God's (Christ's) healing of the cancer known as sin!! It is not some "magic" robe that God can't see us through !! When Christ said "It is finished" before He died, He had vindicated the Father before the universe!!
Our job is to accept what Christ has done on the universes behalf, and share that "Good News" with a hurting world!!
That is a distinctive message but in no way "weird"!!
Fred

My father in law had a good saying that I think fits quite well!! "It is ok to be distinctive but not peculiar(weird)!!"
I am afraid from reading above that too often we have entered the "weird" realm with our emphasis on a "fearful" God and strayed away from the "loving and trustworthy" God that changes hearts with His "love" manifested in Jesus( who is God and no different than His Father!!)
We all have the opportunity to represent that picture of God as long as we breath!! What better to hear from God when we meet, than to be addressed as "friend"!!!
Thanks for listening.
Fred

Dave and Tom,

I had a wonderful childhood as an SDA and enjoyed going to AUA (SDA) in Atlanta 1-8. Northside HS 9-10, Collegedale Academy 11th and graduating from RHS in Atlanta in the 12th.

I even attended the 5th grade in the promise land (Loma Linda) under Ms. Pitts tutelage. Poor thing. I never saw her smile...not judging but she must have been so sad about something. I understand Ernie Bursey did likewise.

College at SMC and Univ. of Ga. then Dental School at Univ.of Tenn.Later RTS a "PCA" Seminary.

I had a wonderful 3rd generation SDA mom who could also think and be pragmatic.She sent me to an excellent public HS when the educational standards of AUA were shown to be inadequate...to much criticism. We ate meat and occassionally went to good movies with her...even before they "were blessed" and shown at a joint SDA gathering.

It was a blessing with this "mixed" educational background to experience many wonderful Christians that seemingly were comfortable not showing their denominational "uniqueness."

All this to say Dave, I am not bitter at my childhood. I am angry about what happened to Des as it is "symptomatic" of our problems..."be angry and sin not."

If Knight wants to address what neuters Adventism he might START THERE and Ques. on Doctrine and make right those problems. I understand he gave up his former "perfectionist" stance and accepted the reformation position of JBF...I think I read that somewhere but that is hearsay.

If the "HUB" of the wheel is missing...Christ Our Righteousness...then the wheel can not be remade. As Zane observed, I believe correctly, what neuter SDA's most is our soteriology."

To quote him,"Jesus is teacher/example before he is Savior.This issue is at the heart of Adventist identity and our theology has been "neutered" to the extent we have failed to affirm an orthodox view of God/Jesus/salvation."

You can't simply move the "wagon" on "without the HUB" that is presented in scripture.

That education process Dave is what I try to contribute to. Because, in my view, we have errors on the "right,mainstream,and left" in SDA.

I may read Knight's book to see what he has to say besides p.17.

regards,
pat

Tom

I accept your rejoinders as feedback from a good friend. Thank you!

You write: "The book of Revelation was written to give some embattled people--assurance. Why not present it that way? 'I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven having the everlasting Gospel.' Why not make that the part that has been neutered?"

I agree.

Also, if we must descend with this book's crude and misogynistic title to using barnyard analogies when talking about our spiritual lives, I agree with you that our problems are not gonadal but hornish.

As you say, The problem is not that we lack potentency but that too often we use our overabundance of it to hurt people.

A highly respected colleague of mine who does not teach where I do commented that in this book "Knight sells his soul." But this would make sense only if he were a liberal who is now turning on his own. I've never thought of him in those terms.

Lots of good work is being done these days in apacolyptic thought by the likes of Jon Paulien, Leslie Pollard, Sigve Tonstad, Kendra Haloviak, Roy Branson and Charles Teel, Jr. These are all in Southern California. There are others in different regions as well.

Lisa is so right! To believe that there is only one unchanging way to be an Adventist is contradicted by the history of SDAism itself. Also, to reduce apocalyptic to to intense temporal immediacy is a mistake.

Many thanks!

Dave

Elaine

You make good points, especially about catharsis. Indeed, there are 12-Step Programs for "Recovering SDAs" and they are doing much good.

Unfortunately, the possible analogy of "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic" to "once an SDA always an SDA" puts a big question mark over my suggestion that spiritually abused Adventists need not forever feel trapped by their pasts, that instead they can "move on" and "leave it all behind" in better ways of thinking and living.

So, maybe instead of "moving beyond" an unhappy SDA childhood some will have to figure out how permanently "live with" it.

To me this is a very sad thought.

How I wish that we all could see how many opportunities we all have to learn and do better things, and to embrace the future without having to curse the past!

Many thanks!

Dave