Thank you for re-opening the delights of Heschel.
Maybe there is space for some more of his gems.

"The Sabbath must all be spent "in charm, grace, peace and great love...""

Christ certainly brought in the idea of doing good on the Sabbath, his example was spontaneous. Whether communal service is best orchestrated for the Sabbath, is perhaps the question?

I would have thought that the Christian arranges his whole life toward community building and acts of mercy, rather than partitioning the week into 6 days self-service and 1 day mercy-service.

It is no surprise that Adventists use Heschel, a good Jew, to give authenticity and "blessing" for their choice of observing the Sabbath which is Jewish gift and blessing to them. However, as Christians, we are not religious Jews, and rarely ethnic. Adventists do not obey most of the Jewish rituals, feasts, New Moons, and practices ordered by God for them alone. Why not?

The question has been asked on another thread: Are we Judaizers or Christians in Sabbath observance? Because there has never been a Christian Sabbath given for them, SDAs are almost totally alone in adopting and observing this Jewish custom; while it is a very selective process as some, but not nearly all these rules are not today considered applicable. Will anyone please explain this "selective" process?

In the NT, both Jesus and Paul command us to love one another and thus fulfill the law. Paul also says we are now justified by faith and not by the law. How do SDAs interpret the many statements by Paul and the writer of Hebrews interpret the statements about the obsolence of the law now that Christ has come?

Raymond

It is not unusual for a youngster to see everything in black and white. But you are a case. Gay membership and strict Sabbath Observance. Do you have any quotes from Abraham Joshua Herchel on your first cause? Or are you a cherry picker of theology. You make your points well, it is just the points you choose to champion that amuses me.

I believe in the Centrality of the Cross as the primary and most significant witness of the Christian. But then again, some others find great pleasure in majoring in minors. Tom

P.S.

Raymond, Just two questions:

1. Please explain a Herchel Sabbath without the Lord of the Sabbath? Does the Rabbi acknowledge Jesus Christ as the creator? The Messiah? The Rabbi makes a case for time of contemplative rest and chooses the 7th day out of Hebrew history to honor without worshiping Jesus Christ. Poor source material for a Christian argument.

2. I understand you are a student at SAU. Are you wealthy or just where do you intend to seek employment with your diversity of views becoming so well known? Tom

My question to Raymond is, was there an immutable law in heaven? How could it be the OT Decalogue with it's reference to creation [assuming of this earth not the universe] and delivery from Egypt. You quoted:

"The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires..."

Heschel's work was written to help Jewish immigrants arriving in the USA deal with the culture they found. In particular the materialistic 24/7 culture.

Quite why this should be a poor source for Christians is not entirely clear. Principles to be considered for a day of rest, which ever day one prefers, is uplifting.

It is unashamedly a Jewish work, reflecting on the same God who we believe was incarnate in Christ Jesus.

Jewish authors have plenty to offer Christians. I find Rabbi Jonathon Sachs refreshing everytime I hear him.

Victor

Jesus Christ declared Himself to be the Lord of the Sabbath.
Rabbis may be able to give advice on how to keep time. They have no idea of how to worship the one they rejected, and pressured Rome to kill him. They accepted Barabbas and cried "Crucify Him, Crucify Him ----And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed" see Luke 23 22

We can learn a lot about Hebrew history, culture, ethics, and ethos. The answers to the questions Whom to worship, Why to Worship, When to Worship, With whom to Worship, and Where to worship are not found in Rabbinical writings.

Enjoy your fiction. Tom

The Rabbis of the time did Crucify Jesus, 50 days later 3000 people, most of them Jews, a significant proportion of the population of Jerusalem, accepted Jesus through the outpouring of the Spirit and laid the foundation for the Christian faith.

The leadership of the Jewish nation accepted responsibility tothemselves. They were not entitled to condemn their people of the time or times to come. I am afraid that the emphasis given reflects the anti-semitism which leads through Christian tradition to the holocaust.

No doubt youre more comfortable embracing the traditions of the Roman's who also crucified Christ?

Jesus asked us to remember and honour him through the service we give to one another. The worship day argument doesn't cut one way or another. Sunday worship is an invention of human tradition with pagan origin - it doesnt answer the questions asked.

"The worship day argument doesn't cut one way or another. Sunday worship is an invention of human tradition with pagan origins." (Just as is the nature of Christ and the Trinity are of human origins.)

Sunday meetings began before the NT canon was closed, as there are several passages detailing how they new Christians met to break bread and collect offerings.

Both the Resurrection and Pentecost occurred on the first day of the week. The new believers became Christians solely on the basis of Christ's Resurrection, not his crucifixion and death. Had he not been raised there would be no Christian church. The early Christians from paganism gradually began celebrating the Resurrection and NEVER observed or were told they must observe any day in order to believe in Jesus.

Constantine "got in front of the parade" by first wishing to unite the Roman Empire and issued the first religious liberty proclamation (Edict of Milan) in 313, that would "grant both to Christians and to all men freedom to follow whatever religion each one wished." Later, he issued the proclamation granting rest on the first day of the week to all except agricultural workers.

It would have been impossible for any ruler to suddenly establish a day of rest that had not been formerly a regular custom, which was the condition at that time. Studying early church history, the earliest of the church fathers wrote on their observance of the first day and refusal to recognize a day that had originally been a special day for the Jews, as within the Empire, the Christians had to separate from the Jews as earlier it was a confusing situation for the rulers as to the difference between the two non-pagan religions.

Several SDA authors have written extensively confirming the findings above. Mervin Maxwell, Gerhardt Damsteeg, Kenneth Strand, and Bacchiochi have all published books and/or articles on this subject which should be read by all practicing SDAs to get the correct history of the Sabbath to Sunday subject.

An excellent source can be found at:

http://wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/history1.htm

Victor

I don't quote Roman leaders as you embrace Rabbis. None the less, I think history and the Parusia will demonstrate that Pope John XXIII was a Christian. Your insinuations and epithets demonstrate the bankrupcy of your arguments.

By the by, Jesus Christ died for me not by me. It was for you and me that He gave up His life and now sits at the right hand of the Throne of Grace.

Let us challenge each other on Gracious living regardless of time, place, or things. If you enjoy the Sabbath as much as I do you are fortunate indeed. Just guit making it the basis of anyone's redemption, even yours. Tom

Elaine,
I do not separate “Jewish” and “Christian” religious practices but rather see them both as complimentary practices that are a reaction to the same source of inspiration. As Christians we would do well to understand and appreciate the “Jewishness” of our faith. Christianity grew out of Judaism and it is only because of the unfortunate strong presence and, dare I write, “tradition” of anti-Semitism in Christianity that has permitted this myth to endure that Christianity is somehow separate or “superior” to Judaism. Such an opinion is not historically accurate.

Tom,
Thanks for your comment. I very seldom see things in “black and white.” I understand the nuances of faith and am an advocate for the delights of paradox in Christian community (thanks Parker Palmer and Dr. Lisa Clark Diller for introducing me to his writings!).

As per my “cherry picking of theology,” for me, like Karen Armstrong, I find that our theology must be like poetry. I love the story that she tells about Rabbi Elazer when he is approached by some pagan gentiles who tell him that they will convert to Judaism if he can recite, from memory, the whole of Torah. Rabbi Elazer responds, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That is the whole of Torah, the rest is commentary. Convert and learn the commentary.”

I also appreciate what Dr. Alden Thompson once said to me, “All theology is autobiography.”

Tom

Raymond's question was with regard to how one becomes actively engaged in the Sabbath, or sacred time if you wish.

That is the question to which I wished to respond.

Denigrating Jews has no place in my repertoire. When Christ was crucified, Peter and the closest disciples were in denial. We all in our sinfulness, share in the dastardly act.

We can all reflect on the failings of faith. Heaven knows, the Orange Order are again this weekend marching the streets of Belfast celebrating their bigotry against their neighbours having contributed misery for generations.

Western Christians have had their day in the son. We have become known for our greed and materialism - God blessing the rich. Reflecting on the original meaning and purpose of the Sabbath has currency for all Christians.

I could speak of challenges faced in Adventism in my neck of the woods this month and the weeks to come, no need to dig up the past. Every Pastor / Priest in every church will be able to share his/her catalogue of heartache. No virtue in that.

Building up people, getting them to live out the consequence of Christ's sacrifice, needs a bit more creativity.

correction: 'son' should have been 'sun'.

Victor

My point is simply one cannot look to Rabbinical sources to learn how to either keep or enjoy the Sabbath. Christ Himself, rrebuked their Sabbath Keeping. and they to this day reject the Lord of the Sabbath. If one wants to learn about the Sabbath one should look to Jesus Christ the Lord of the Sabbath or Paul who was a Jew of the Jews and a Pharisee of the Parisees for guidance.

Salvation is in a person not in an act. I have not denigrated the Jews. I have related history on a specific religious practice of a people who have corporately clung to the shadow and rejected the figure. Tom

Christians seem quite happy to malign Jewish thought.
Reading what some of them have to say after 2000 years, and giving credit where due seems innocent enough to me.
(Jewish musicians after all contribute significantly to the body of hymnology we now deem Christian.)

Propositional proofing is not the purpose of the search.

I also much appreciate the writing of Parker Palmer nominated by Raymond. I wish that his book 'The Courage to Teach' was available before I started teaching. His idea that the 'sacredness of the subject' transcending teacher / pupil centeredness is valuable, he also highlights the value of 'encounter' in the educational relationship.

In his 'The spirit within' he speaks of living into our possibility space, and become the person we are destined to be.

Palmer became a Quaker through his own quest. How Christian that is, I am not sure, (I think they prefer not to align) he doesn't speak particularly of Christ, but he has a contribution from which I am willing to learn.

My current read is 'Why it pays to lighten up - The Levity Effect' - I'll share the punch line when I'm finished.

Luther's comments on Gal.4:27 regarding ordinances touching days and ceremonies of the OT law AS WELL AS the NT church as well as the papacy is interesting. He saw none of them as effecting ones Righteousness before God.

"Neither do the ordinances of Moses or those of the Pope concern us. But because life cannot go on without some ordinances, the Gospel permits regulations to be made in the Church in regard to special days, times, places, etc., in order that the people may know upon what day, at what hour, and in what place to assemble for the Word of God. Such directions are desirable that "all things be done decently and in order." (I Cor. 14:40.) These DIRECTIONS may be CHANGED OR OMITTED altogether, as long as no offense is given to the weak."

Should be an interesting thought for both 7th day keepers and 1st day keepers to consider.

pat

Raymond and Alden,

Theology as autobiography?

I am to assume that "theology" - theos, God and logos, word has now become a study of ourselves rather than God's written Word called scripture?

Theology as autobiography?

One person on another site said of this concept,

Yeah, I think I agree. If all of life is woven together and integrated to form one thing, then theology is most certainly autobiographical. It has to be, for how else do we interact with the world around us except through our lives and capacity to experience. And yet, it is not merely the autobiography of a handful of individuals, but us all, the whole of humanity. For as much as our individual lives affect our theology, so do our collective experiences.

And thus we have a beautiful tapestry of theology woven from the ages for us to engage and wrestle, argue and refute, accept and embrace, ever drawing us closer to the one called I AM."

Thus, Our experience becomes the norm rather than God's word that judges "our experience" in this paradigm.

regards,

pat

Victor

Immediate classification prejudices all subsequent thinking. You come across as one who enjoys libeling by labeling and then attacking the label. If that gives you comfort and satisfaction, have at it! Just don't run for public office. There is no there, there! Tom

Well, thanks for the label Tom.

I set out trying to respond positively to the original proposition, but find a response that repeats the anti-sabbath / jewish position oft repeated on various threads.

You may care to read the Presbyterian's Inter-Faith Report of June 2008, and some of the press reports from the Jewish perspective, which addresses to some extent your line of argument. Clearly there was a case to be answered.

I recognise that most local neighbourhood churches in the US cut their own congregational groove. However, some of those brands have national identities, the fruit of which is often less than pleasant. If you had lived in Ireland, Scotland or South Africa you would understand. Christianity as a whole has been brought into disrepute.

Sorry if the response seems personal. No offence intended.

The Gospel of Matthew was written about 100 AD clearly with Jewish Christians in mind. I dont believe that you can write them and their tradition out of the picture quite so easily.

Victor

My dear friend. How in Heaven's name can you equate the Gospel of Matthew with the writting of contemporary Rabbi writers. One accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the others reject that thought out of hand?
Please quote any comment that I have made or even suggested that Christian Jews were anathema. In all frankness, Victor, I must tell you again: argumentation is not your strong suit.

I will not burden you with the errors of logic you employ.
Try a continuing education course in logic. It will do you a world of good and spare us a lot of nonsense. Tom

Adventists are surely not antisemites, because they adhere and claim to observe many of the Jewish laws and rituals. In effect, SDAs are hybrids: part Jew, part Christian, straddling the fence on both religions. Adhereing in totality to neither, they reject some, but not all of both religions, preferring to design their own. Unfortunately, hybrids are usually infertile.

"SDAs are hybrids"?

Elaine, I'm a little struck by that assertion. I was always of the understanding that Adventists were Trinitarian Christians of the Protestant persuasion (salvation doctrine can be raced back to Wesley and Arminius's "conditional preservation of the saints", which in turn comes out of dissent with Reformed/Calvinist doctrine, our emphasis on Scripture goes straight back to Luther) with an emphasis on the Sabbath and health not found in other Protestant churches.

And while hybrids often ARE infertile, what leads you to make such a statement? I apologize if I'm missing something...I'm young and not academy-educated, so I may not be making a connection somewhere.