It would be good that some recognize the historic movement leading to the establishment of Israel. It was the product of Britain, the UN and a US Democratic Administration signing the Declaration.

It was not formed by Fundamentalist Dispensationalist though they support it now in accord with their own prophetic understanding.

Happy Birthday on May 14 Israel. May you experience moments of Shalom while recognizing that other Nations also find lasting peace but fleeting.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/...

I truly believe with all my heart that the nation of Israel has so much prospect for peace and joy yet there is still much pain and sorrow that needs healing for both Palestinian and Israeli.

As Israel celebrates her 60th-birthday, let all of us who seek peace in the Middle East strive for a tangible solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. My heart goes out to my Palestinian and Israeli friends in Israel--should this conflict have an end it will be through the thoughtful leadership of the young Palestinian and Israeli generations. May God (Adonai, Allah) be our guide is my prayer.

There's a really good article on the state of Israel's history in the May 5, New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2008/05/05/080505crbo_books_...

There are so many wrongs on both sides, that it is a situation that, doubtless, can never be successfully settled. The Jews are guilty of continuing to build settlements on what was designed to be Palestinian land. The old canard:
"God gave us this land" can equally be claimed by both sides. However, because the U.S. Christian right are some of the major fund-raisers and supporters for Jews to emigrate to Israel, they are firm believers in the OT that God gave Israel this land, and if you are against that, you are fighting God.

The Jews are attempting to do what the Christians could not successfully accomplish in the Crusades: retake Palestine.

The Palestinians have demography on their side. Their birth rates are much higher and when there are so many more Palestinians than Jews, then what? The Jews have prevented (by their barriers) the Palestinians from access to hospitals, food, gas, and other necessities in an effort to control them. This will never work, as experience demonstrates.

Another fallacy of reading the Bible literally.

Elaine,

I speak to you politically. Was it the "religious right" as you describe it that created the 1947-48 plan implemented by the UN and Truman? Was it a biblical understanding on the part of those who designed the plan? I suggest it was more political.

To now blame the present problem on the "religious right" seems to be like blaming the "adopting parents" for the pregnancy of their adopted child.

I am trying to be objective. From the beginning who generally instigates conflict and seemingly has no desire for Israel to exist as a nation or for "peaceful order" to exist...even prior to the present post 1967 war modified borders...the war which Israel's neighbors started as I recall.

I am not a "religious Zionist" but I feel these people have a legitimate right to a homeland considering the "continued" hostility against them in history as a people.

My 2 cents!

regards,
pat

Pat,

If you reread my comments, there was nothing said about the "religious right" as instigators of the original state of Israel. It was a political move, but afterward, both the Zionists and Christian right made much of the biblical promise that the Jews would inherit the land forever, which is why they both agree on this one thing: Israel is their land as a God-given right, and can never be erased.

Israel, surrounded as they are by Arab nations, often quite hostile, is in a precarious position and it is only by the continued financial gifting through the U.S. that they are able to do so. At last check, it was the recipient of the largest amount of financial help from the U.S. than any other country.

Do the Palestinians have any legitimate right at all to that country, since their ancestors occupied it surely as long, if not longer than the Jews? There does not seem to be an answer that satisfies anyone, else it would have been long ago. Even with partitioning, the Israelis continued to settle in the Palestinian partitions, against restrictions that had been previously agreed upon. Both sides have breached these and the world is faced with an impossible dilemma. There is no way that either side can be fairly adjudicated.

Elaine,

But the fact is the "die is cast" and it was originally a political move...fair enough? It seems that Israel has "no right to exist" in the view of most Islamic nations.

It "seems" to me it is always "bait" and if we get that demand more from Israel before we are happy. How do you get that attitude to go away?

pat

"It seems that Israel has "no right to exist" in the view of most Islamic nations."

Failure to understand the Islamic nations' attitude does nothing to aid in establishing peace there.

Since 1949, the U.S. has sent $74,157,600,000 to
Israel, other aid amounts to more than $9 billion. The total benefits per Israeli has been $14,631. The added payments to Israeli settlers to build on Palestinian land amounts to a vital encouragement for them to do so.

"In sheer volume, the amount is the most generous foreign aid program ever between any two countries. It parallels the needs of American arms exporters. Although Israel is an advanced, industrialized, technologically sophisticated country, it receives more U.S. aid per capita annually than the total annual GDP per capita of several Arab states. Approximately a third of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget goes to Israel even though Israel comprises just one-thousandth of the world's total population, and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes."

http://www.rense.com/general31.rege.htm

Elaine,

Was that to help carry out ther non-revocable UN mandate to exist as a nation? Hey, I am nor arguing for the "purity" of everything that has been done from the various motives of many who stand to profit from Israel's existence. As I said, I think the formation concept was more political economic rather than religious Zionism by the Nations and organizations responsibile for Israel's "charter".

At the same time when others don't believe you have a right to exist what do you do?

The monies given by the U.S. to Israel have been ongoing since 1949. As to the U.S. justification, more than 99% of all aid to Israel took place after the June 1967 war, when Israel found itself more powerful than any combination of Arab armies.

The U.S. supports Israel's dominance so it can serve as a surrogate for American interests in this vital strategic region because it has helped defeat radical nationalist movements and has been a testing ground for U.S. made weaponry. Israel has funneled U.S. arms to third countries that the U.S. could not send arms to directly,....like South Africa, the Contras, Guatemala under the military junta, [and] Iran.

According to an Israeli analyst, "It's like Israel has just become another federal agency when it's convenient to use and you want something done quietly."

In the fall of 1993 when many had high hopes for peace, 78 senators wrote to Pres. Clinton insisting that aid to Israel remain
at current levels." Their "only reason" was the "massive procurement of sophisticated arms by Arab states." The letter neglected to mention that 80% of those arms to Arab countries came from the U.S. The Aerospace Industry Association promotes these massive arms shipments and is even more influential, giving two times more money to campaigns than all of the pro-Israel groups combined. (Proving the old adage that the arms makers always benefit from war.)

The U.S. and Israel have been in bed together for the last 60 years, and there is little hope that it will change anytime soon. With this knowledge well-known in the Arabic (Islamic) countries, we should not be surprised at their sentiment against the U.S.

There is an excellent article (annotated) on the history of what led to the Jewish state of Israel, here:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/1948--israel--and-the...

Each side in this conflict--and many scholars and armchair pundits within each side--have their own version of the truth of what led to Israel's establishment, and where things stand today. To arrive at one's own conclusions, one needs to read both sides, and much else besides (scholarly material, not junk). Don't take this blog's word for it, or mine, or any single books' or articles', without doing your own research.

There is a lot of "agenda" on both sides vying for your credulity. While I believe both sides engage, to some extent, in disingenuity and bias, and there is plenty of fault to go around, one side is *generally* more honest and open to peace with co-existence than the other, in my view. But don't take my word for it. Read, read, read...as many perspectives as you are willing to take time for. This Commentary article is a good place to start, alongside the one Carpenter mentioned in the New Yorker (above).

Good luck. It's not an easy task. But I think it's an important one.

I am beginning to wonder if the prophecy of Daniel 11:45 “He shall come to his end and no one shall help him” refers to Israel. Adventist have many theories concerning this prophecy and the importance of the event that happens after it. Daniel 12:1 “at that time shall Michael stand up”

If the U.S. were to forsake Israel for some reason and the Arabs overran it, there might be quite a shake up in the world order.

Raymond,
I've always wanted to visit the holy land. There still is plenty of time. Thanks for this!

JB,

It is my belief that the prophecies of Daniel are best understood when considering the book of Revelation as the reapplication of the OT "promises" to Israel that are given for the NT Church.

Attitudes of those opposing God's people however do not change as they are led by Satan in the OT and NT. When similar conditions exist so can multiple applications of those attitudes exist until the second coming.

Then those who are in Christ are saved from the "wrath" that is to come (Rom.5:9) when Christ comes to deliver His people and destroy their oppresors who hate Him and them among "all nations."Mt.24:9.

My 2 cents,
pat

The "prophecies" of Daniel are only prophetic if one refuses to accept that the Hebrews dated this book as being written between 167-164 B.C. during the persecution under Antiochus Epiphanes and before the Maccabean revolt. It was written to sustain faith and hope among the Jews in their persecutions. In the Hebrew the book is not found among the Prophets but is placed among the Writings, the 3rd and latest division of the Hebrew Scriptures to be canonized.

A large section of the book (2:4b-7:28) was not written in Hebrew, but Aramaic, which the exiles learned to speak in Babylon. There are a number of Persian and Greek words, e.g., the name of the musical instruments in 3:5 transcribes a word that is not only Greek but found with this meaning nowhere in Greek literature before the 2nd century B.C. Likewise, the name "Chaldeans" is also used in a special sense it did not acquire till long after the Exile.

Because it is placed in the Hebrew Bible among the Writings rather than the Prophets indicates a late date; if it had been in existence before ca. 200 B.C. it would have been placed with the Prophets.

The book of Daniel undoubtedly disregards known facts, persons and dates and contains anachronisms in detail and is considered to be the last expression of messianic prophecy in the OT.

Pat,

Your two mites are accepted.

To my way of thinking the best prophecy is the one that can help a person in immediate need; example, the prophecy of Jesus telling the disciples, when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem to get out of the city. The prophecy of Jonah telling the Ninevehites the city would be destroyed in 40 days is another example. I think if we had such information today it would be of benefit to us.

When I look at the enemies surrounding Israel for 60 years, Israel’s amazing defeat of those enemies against over whelming odds, it raises a question as to whether this is the fulfillment of some Biblical prophecy. Israel makes a lot of noise, in the news, for such a small country. Israel as a nation today does not profess to accept Christ as a Savior, yet it seems as if their rise might be of some importance.

Adventist have tried to fit Daniel 11:45 into some future world event. I am saying, the country that comes to an end and no one helps them, could be Israel. After all, it is possible that Israel could be destroyed by the Muslim nations one day. If this did happen it would be of immediate help to the generation living at that time.

Elaine,

I have studied and debated the interpretation that Daniel was not written by Daniel, but was written sometime after the Captivity, as you have explained. However, I am one of those people who has rejected that interpretation, for Jesus himself refers to prophecies of Daniel as being of predictive value. Jesus and Daniel, in my sight, are tied together, if I give up one I have to give up the other. I am not ready to give up Jesus.

I use Occam’s razor when I have to choose between two competing theories; the shortest one which fits the facts is the one most likely to be correct. I will die before the year 2050, if Jesus does not come. With all sincerity I wish to know the truth of what is going to happen to me, my family, my friends. Anyone who can provide me with a reasonable explanation I am listening.

Happy Birthday Israel!
I have been so fortunate to visit the holy land 4 times. It is a wonderful place to visit, and indeed the Israeli people have done incredible work there to build up this land that was a desert before, but is now a blooming oasis. Because of their hard work and smart ideas, they are growing vegetables and fruits by channeling water through the desert for example.

I also had the chance to go over to Jordania and visit Petra, and it is amazing how sudden the change is from one country to the next, from oasis to a desert. So I have great respect for what the Israeli people have done there, and for their character of not giving up. It is not easy to be surrounded by countries that want them wiped out of the chart, and it is impossible for the outsider to put himself in their shoes of what can be done in this situation. I know that Richard Elofer is doing a marvellous work there in the Adventist church, and he is going over to Bethlehem to give Palestinian families Bible study. It is a dangerous work, so he goes there himself. We should pray for him and our Adventist family over there.

I also heard a wonderful testimony from one of the church there, they had evangelistic meetings and prayed that at least one Jew might come. And, sure enough, one Jew showed up by accident at these meetings, and became convinced of the message and he was baptised into the church a little afterwards.

May God bless Israel and its people and I pray that the Israeli people, Jews and Palestinians, might accept Jesus as their Savior.

JB, you wrote:

"the shortest one which fits the facts is the one most likely to be correct. Jesus himself refers to prophecies of Daniel as being of predictive value."

True, but what was predicted if not the soon-to-be destruction of the Temple and burning of Jerusalem? Since this scenario was familiar and occurred during Antiochus Epiphanes who defiled the Temple, is that the prediction you referred to, or later?

Complying with Occam's razor, the 70 AD destruction would seem to be most likely.

Elaine,

I quoted Jesus because He seems to authenticate the book of Daniel. Once Daniel is authenticated as being written by Daniel, during the Babylonian and Persian captivity, there is the possibility of Antiochus, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and more.

Daniel Chapters 10 and 11 seems to go far beyond the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I have studied their history for the last 2000 years and I noticed they have been driven out of every country in Europe at one time or another. The Holocaust was just their most recent persecution in Europe. Finally they seem to have a home in Israel again but that home seems to be in a precarious position. It is possible that Israel may be annihilated by the Muslims one day. If that were to happen, does it have some prophetic meaning?

Adventist, for better or for worse, have a long history of trying to interpret prophecy to conform to some political event. Daniel 11:45 has been the subject of much conjecture. I am only raising the question is it possible the text refers to Israel.

Of course, anything is possible when attempting to interpret biblical prophecy as SDAs and other religions have done that since the first century.

But what did those prophecies mean to readers at that time? Did they presume that it had nothing to do with them but was speaking of a far distant future? Occam's razor applies here: The most immediate application would be that the Jews were scattered following those early disasters, and there have been multiple diasporas both before that time and afterward.

Was Jesus referring to a time of trouble in the 21st century or a much closer time? Why would he or anyone currently, tell followers that this was not about them, but a much later generation--2000 years later, in fact?

The simplist answer, IMO, is that those prophecies were telling of both things past and things future that the hearers might experience:
hence Jesus' warning that this would happen in winter or on Sabbath.

Elaine,

You are right, anything is possible when interpreting Bible prophecy; it’s that way when interpreting any writing. The meaning of any writing is only as good as the mind that interprets writing. To interpret the Bible correctly the living God must direct the reader’s mind. This is what Jesus told the Sanhedrin in John chapter 5. They thought they could read the Bible interpret it correctly and recognize the Messiah when he came.

Furthermore, the correct interpretation of prophecy does not stand alone as an independent attribute. It is the product of the desire to know the truth, searching for the truth, obedience to the truth, staking something of value upon acceptance of the understanding of the prophecy. Sometimes I think of it like putting together a large puzzle. A piece may have no meaning alone, it may be placed in the wrong place early, but as the puzzle continues to be put together its proper place becomes evident.

Another example is the Centurion on the ship caught in a storm with Paul. Paul told him he had a vision from God, God showed him everyone would be saved, if they stayed with the ship. He may not have been a believer, but being in a desperate situation, his “intuition” told him he better obey the only man who seemed calm during the storm. In the end that is what we all want to make it safely through the storm.