Once again the Western ignorance and Islamic Manipulation come side to side. Here are a few thoughts.

1. If Islam was a peaceful religion, like Musri is saying. Why are Christians in the Middle East being persecuted. Christians in Iraq (thanks to America), Egypt (recently) and soon Syria are being persecuted. What is Musri doing in order to protect Christians. I will bet NOTHING.

2. For those of you who believed Musri, I would like to put a challenge before you. Since Musri claims that Islam is a peaceful religion and is accepting and loving, here is the challenge. I would like you to pack your belongings and move to Saudi Arabia, Emirates, Iran, Egypt, Jordan, or Syria and "saturate" the area with your gospel message. I would loooooove to see how long you will last in that 'loving', 'accepting', 'open minded' atmosphere which Musri claims to be so real.

This is the bottom line. Islam needs to move from talking about being loving, accepting etc. to showing us that they are what they claim to be.

This is the tip of the iceberg.

I talk as a person who has lived among muslims for 31 years.

John
It's troubling to see the Middle Ages persist into our own time. A few hundred years ago Muslims were the ones who were being persecuted and killed by Christians. The mindset is the same: if you don't agree with us, you're against God, and we should not tolerate people who're in open rebellion against the Almighty. Lack of education and hard-core beliefs create a deadly mix, whatever the religion. Even Buddhists and Hindus kill in the context of their religion, when conditions are right for it.

Both the Bible and the Quran contain verses that are sharp enough to sever the heads of those who think differently. Fortunately for us in the Western world, fundamentalists with homicidal tendencies have had their fangs pulled by a secular state that believes in religious freedom. We don't have to deal with the likes of the Lord's Resistance Army in Central Africa. Muslims are not as fortunate. Their crazies still command a lot of power, and as long as they do, nobody is safe.

PS. What are you doing to combat the Lord's Resistance Army? I bet you've never raised your voice in support of its victims. Or do you agree that you're no more responsible for these crazy Christians and their depredations than this Muslim cleric is for the persecutions of Copts in Egypt?

So Masri hadn't stopped everything 'wrong' by one billion Muslims so therefore he is a phony or a hypocrite? Come on!

Religions evolve. I have yet to find a religion that is spotless or that I can agree 100% with. I am neither an evangelist for Islam or Adventism. But I will always work to assist individuals and groups of individuals to evolve to more enlightened positions regarding aspects of their religion that diminish people's humanity, are uncaring to nature, that are poor quality thinking, and that oppress and control people to any degree.

An anti and oppositional stance often helps entrench people in their positions, not change them.

One point made by Imam Musri at the meeting was that extremism exists largely among those who are basically illiterate and do not study the Koran for themselves. Violence, he said, is fueled by political ideology not the Islamic religion.

Much of what western world interprets as Islamic religion such as extreme covering for women and male dominance is more a reflection of the local culture of the countries than of Islam. Example, in Turkey women are not veiled as in Saudi Arabia.

I was impressed with the fact that he claimed to have memorized the entire Koran - in Arabic. He said the poetic beauty of the book does not translate well into English - and that he is constantly having to re-interpret for his parishioners passages within the Koran that are misunderstood in English translations.

As Jim mentioned above - the local congregations in our area have spoken up strongly and frequently against violence... One problem is that Islam does not have a pope - or a central authority figure that can be a spokesperson for the faith worldwide.

Fr Jim, I understand clearly your position: Catholics are eternally the persecuted minority and never the persecutors. Protestants and Moslems are the ever-persecuting evildoers with few redeeming qualities. So simple. So clear.

"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get me"

John IV

I don't think you are getting my point. You say, "I strongly support the efforts that are being put forth" But the rest of your comments don't support what you say. What have you--yes you, personally, someone with 31 years of experience--done to help reduce tensions between Christians and Muslims? HOW do you strongly support? Do you attend mosques or inter-faith meetings, make donations, teach seminars, or write books?

In my view, lip service is nothing. We live is a world where people are dying every day, the targets of religious persecution and bigotry. It's time to make a difference, not to criticize those who making honest efforts. Where is your sense of personal responsibility? I challenge you to get involved in inter-faith work in your community. Then post a blog and tell us how one person can make change in our desperate and divided world.

I support every effort to reduce the tensions especially between Christians and Muslims.

I am especially impressed by the Muslims' loud voice of disapproval when some Muslim terrorists blow up a bomb killing either Christians, or Americans, or Europeans. I am thrilled to watch on TV how decisively they protest against those terrorists.

Do I remember them protesting vehemently against violence when 9/11 happened?
Hhhhmmm.... is my memory failing me suddenly?....

I would really like to understand better what is that discourse about "killing all the infidels." Because I am one of those infidels... and believe me, I am in no hurry to be summarily executed! Sorry, not ready yet for that.

"Islam" does not mean "peace," but "submission," the context being submission to Allah. When a Muslim speaker throws in the bit of taqiyya about Islam meaning peace, be careful of everything else he says.

The Orlando Sentinel reported, on 9/1/11, that Muhammad Musri was charging $5.00 for parking at his mosque on Goldenrod Road in Orlando, which the Sentinel termed a "pay to pray" scandal. "Religion is free; God's place is free," Al-Atassi said. "It's not fair to ask people for an entrance fee." Musri claimed it was all just a big misunderstanding:

"They have it totally wrong. We have explained it over and over that this is not pay to pray," Musri said. "It's a recommended donation, and if someone says, 'I'm not going to pay,' that's fine. We say, 'Welcome, come on in.' "

"But the Islamic Society's website doesn't reflect that the fee is voluntary and optional: "Effective July 1, 2011, a $5 parking fee will be assessed per vehicle during the Friday Khutbah service between the hours of 12 noon and 4 pm, and other special events."

"Muslims could avoid paying the parking fee by joining the Islamic Society with a donation of $30 or more a month and receive a parking decal as a membership perk — which is also optional, Musri said. The money goes toward Islamic Society expenses and charities, Musri said."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-09-01/features/os-pay-to-pray-2....

It has also been learned that the title to Muhammad Musri's mosque on Goldenrod Road is held by the North American Islamic Trust, a subsidiary of the Islamic Society of North America. Both NAIT and ISNA are Muslim Brotherhood-affiliated organizations. NAIT is estimated to hold title to 27% of all mosques in the U.S., although some put the figure much higher. NAIT seeks to ensure that all of the mosques it holds title to uphold sharia law and Wahhabism. A federal complaint against the Holy Land Foundation for financing terrorism named both ISNA and NAIT as unindicted co-conspirators and as "entities who are and/or were members of the U.S. Muslim Brotherhood." The Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in the 1920s by Hassan al-Banna, is the ideological mother of every modern Sunni Islamist terror organization, including Hamas and Al Qaeda. At the 2007 trial in Dallas of the Holy Land Foundation, prosecutors presented copious evidence that ISNA had used NAIT to divert funds to top Hamas official Mousa Abu Marzook and to a number of Hamas-run institutions.

When asked about the fact that NAIT holds title to his mosque, Musri claimed that, previous to the Holy Land Foundation trial, he didn't know NAIT was affiliated with terrorism or the Muslim Brotherhood, and he claimed to be trying to get title from NAIT:

"So, we are still in legal proceedings because after twenty five years of them holding title to our property, it is really very difficult to take it back. And if you happen to know a very good attorney (laughing in the audience) to help us with this because we have spent several thousand dollars already and we have not been successful, because we even offer to buy it back, even though when we listed it they wouldn’t pay a penny. But, uhh, we operate 100 percent independent of them, they do not have any say over what we do, they in my eighteen years of working this organization never have actually contacted them."

In 2009, a Muslim American Society (another Muslim Brotherhood spin-off) fund-raiser at which George Galloway appeared, was held at Musri's mosque on Goldenrod Road. The money was for Hamas, a Palestinian terror organization. When asked about this, Muhammad Musri claimed that he didn't know what was to happen:

“It wasn’t to my knowledge that Mr. Galloway, whom I did not know before, uhh, was invited by the group who used our, they didn’t, do anything at our Mosque. They rented this room, they rented the auditorium of the school, just as tonight we rented this place. And they conducted that event, brought that speaker, without my knowledge or approval, which I subsequently reprimanded them for it, and took measures to bar that group and individuals locally who promoted them to coming."

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.8893/pub_detail.asp.

So poor Muhammad Musri is just a victim. People keep misusing his mosque without his knowledge. He would like to disassociate himself and his mosque from terrorism. He really would. For all I know, Muhammad Musri really is a peaceful, soft-spoken guy who doesn't go along with political Islam. But even assuming that there is a non-political Islam, these stories illustrate how hard it is for a Muslim not to get tangled up with the networks of political Islam.

David Read says, '"Islam' does not mean 'peace,' but 'submission,' the context being submission to Allah. When a Muslim speaker throws in the bit of taqiyya about Islam meaning peace, be careful of everything else he says."

Arabic, like Hebrew, originally had consonants only. The root SLM is behind Salam (peace), Islam (submission), and Muslim (one who submits). The state in which one finds oneself upon submitting to God is peace. Thus, the conviction of Muslims that Islam is a religion of peace--it is a tautology.

As to the statement that "extremism exists largely among those who are basically illiterate and do not study the Koran for themselves," that would be hard to defend. Extremism is embraced by well-educated imams and leaders in many parts of the Islamic world. Is it always political and not religious? Not to hear the advocates of violence. See Ken Ballen's recent book, "Terrorists in Love," which lets jihadists speak for themselves, and tell their own stories.

"He claimed to have memorized the entire Koran - in Arabic." Something done by children in much of the Muslim world.

Yes, Muslims have been subject to misunderstanding in parts of the US. As lovers of religious liberty, we need to stand with Muslims when that happens. But the points raised above about how Christians are treated in many Muslim countries need to be seriously addressed. We need to see more articles in "Liberty" about religious liberty issues in many Muslim countries. And we need to be able to ask Muslims how that fits with the Koran's injunction that there is no compulsion in matters of religion.

I'm glad a few Adventists here and there are starting to dialogue with Muslims. See also the NAD office for Adventist Muslim Relations. We share a belief in the soon coming end of days, and divine judgment; we share a belief in avoiding intoxicating beverages and unclean foods; we believe in prophets, and prayer, and charity. We believe in one God, who made heaven and earth. Seems we have a lot of things we could be talking about.

Who shows up to demonstrate? Again, at the meeting, we were told that the majority of Muslims in the US are college educated and professional people - not the sort to be in picket lines.

It's easy being brave on behalf of other people. Asking Muslims in the Muslim world to risk their lives by standing up to the homicidal crazies in their midst is like faulting the decent Christians of the South for not having had the guts to protest the regime of terror that homicidal segregationists enforced against its Black population. When terror is supported by the State, or when the State is too weak to protect people against it, it's hard to fault people for seeking shelter in their homes.

And what about Muslims in Western countries? Yes, we would have liked to see more heroic figures who'd stand tall against terror and its linkage to religion, but I also find it understandable that a religious community under the kind of pressure that the Western Muslim community is, would be inclined to retreat into the realm of privacy. Most of us are moral cowards by nature, but we expect heroism of others.

David's excursion into the minutiae of this Muslim cleric's organisational activities, down to how much he charges for parking, reveals an incredible preoccupation with Islam as the demonic force du jour. When I was young, it was Communism and Catholicism--and in Europe, the European Union--that supposedly channeled the nefarious machinations of 'the Great Satan.' Now it's Islam. What would fundamentalism be without an enemy? It needs a unifying demon more than it needs a God. The message from fundamentalists of all stripes is: if you're not with us, you're against us, and if you're against us, you're against God.

Our agenda should be to strengthen the hand of those who take on the crazies in their midst, not try to tear them down as being no better than the worst of their faith.

S. google Coptic Christians in Egypt. When we start doing that let me know.

David's excursion into the minutiae of this Muslim cleric's organisational activities, down to how much he charges for parking, reveals an incredible preoccupation with Islam as the demonic force du jour.

My view of Islam is that it is a scourge or punishment for apostate, or post-Christian, Christendom. It certainly functioned that way during the middle ages, fitting in perfectly with the Adventist interpretation of the 1260 days. Islam came to prominence just after the establishment of the beast power in 538 AD (Muhammad was born in 570 AD); when the pope's civil authority was removed by Revolutionary France in 1798, the power of Islam was symbolically removed that same year at the Battle of the Pyramids, in which Napoleon easily destroyed the Mamluk army.

By every objective measure Islam is still very weak compared to the West, but they are very strong in one important thing: cultural self-confidence, or chauvinism. Nature abhors a vacuum, and something beats nothing. Islam may not be a very good religion, but it is certainly better than no religion at all, and so we find Islam, though less than 10% of the population of Europe, totally dominating Europe's policymakers and spineless, craven elites.

The same thing is happening here, too, since President Obama is essentially European in his outlook and ideology. I read a report from the Egyptian media, translated from the Arabic, that the U.S. is in secret talks with Egypt to transfer 50 prisoners to Egypt, including the "Blind Sheik," who masterminded the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center towers and currently serving a life sentence, in exchange for the 19 Americans (including the son of transportation secretary Ray LaHood) that Egypt is now essentially holding hostage. Egypt knows it can take hostages with utter impunity because Obama is weak. Egypt knows it won't even lose the $1.5 billion per annum in U.S. foreign aid, because Obama will veto any congressional attempt to deny that aid.

I guess that most of us hear what we want to hear and screen out much of the rest. However, just a quick Google search reveals these statements against terrorism in the wake of 911 - a sizable number of them being prominent Muslim leaders. Maybe we sometimes don't hear things because we don't listen? And why would we want to continue to be opposed to those who would like to work toward better relations? (no response necessary to that rhetorical question, please). Here are just a few:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131580,00.html

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Let me add a word of appreciation for the article. Even if you take the stance that not enough has been done in the past, I appreciate efforts in the present.

David represents the product of Adventism schools and the faux history taught. The dates given in the Great Controversy were "manufactured" starting with 1844 and working back to find a date that fit with their predictions: predictions that were faulty and was so proved. There were many far more important dates in Christian history, but if they did not "fit" with the math previously decided upon, it was rejected. It's called
"Adventist History," or more correctly known: "rewriting history."

.................find another contrived date on which to base the 1260 day (nor year) prophecy....Aage

the number 1260 itself seems "contrived"..... its 30 x 42......... where 30 represents a "month", based on "moon chronology", and 42 represents 3 sets of 14.... which itself is double the perfect 7...

7even was derived from scientifically uneducated goatherders looking up at the night sky and without optics only seeing the 5 "wandering" planets (planet means wander in greek) which, combined with the sun and moon moved differently against the background of the stars, the bright holes in the overhead "dome" thru which one could see the brightness of the 7th heaven.

so the 7 wanderers were thought to be gods, wandering around the heavens, and gave us the names of the week and the concept of divine perfection.

double 7 is how long Old Jake worked for his two brides

3 sets of 14 is how many sets of generations Matt used to prove that Jesus was the Messiah, coming at the "right" time. Despite Lukes different and probably more scholarly list.

42 is the precise number of kids killed by she bears sent from God to prove to Elisha that he had the force with him despite being bald. how else would the bears know when to stop the killing unless they could count, or God controlled the killing? (or unless this is simply a campfire story told to impress Hebrew kids to toe the line, "or the bears might get you")

"12" is how many zodiac signs pass overhead your average sheep herder in the night sky....so 12 came to represent "all night long", the entire length, the sum total you need. and adding the same time in the day gave us 24 hrs.

Jake had 12 sons. Jesus continued with the numerology when he took 12 apostles. But when He sent out 70 to the non hebrews, He multiplied the Roman 10 times the Hebrew 7 to indicate the message was based on the Hebrew divine, but also for the Romans.

we are to forgive 7 x 70........

"contrived" seems to be the applicable concept to much of ancient numerology.

John IV,

I think I have a sense of humor. I like a good joke. I enjoy clever quips. But I don't go for put-downs. I don't like lightheartedness that comes at major expense to someone else's image and feelings. So I don't find your response to Christie Cales very "Christian"--because , to me, Christie comes across as the kind of loving, sensitive, caring person I enjoy being around; and Imam Musri is my friend.

Our Philosophy Statement at the Interfaith Council of Central Florida puts it this way:

"The United States is a nation of great diversity. Our population represents nearly every region and religion of the world. Such differences can erect barriers, stir up prejudice and create social tension. But such differences can also endear and enrich. The Interfaith Council of Central Florida seeks to harness the positive potential.

"We do not do this by downplaying our differences and our disagreements. We candidly acknowledge that our great faith traditions explain life's ultimate realities in radically different terms. We recognize that some of our claims may be mutually exclusive. Thus we agree to disagree. But we seek to do it respectfully, as friends.

"Despite our disagreements, we equally recognize that the world's great religions share a vast array of core values. The Interfaith Council seeks to highlight these shared values and rally the region's faith groups around causes that are spiritually, morally and socially important to us all."

Imam Musri and I strongly disagree on a array of issues, yet we remain friends and treat each other with respect. I only wish that some of my fellow Adventists could learn what it is that he seems to have learned so thoroughly.

Jim

Ted
May I remind you of John 3:17. Those who do not believe in Jesus as world savior--Jews, Muslims and people such as myself--are promised, in no uncertain terms, that they are dead people walking. If you're going to accuse Islam of condemning non-believers, you need to first take a critical look at your own beliefs. Judaism (think first commandment) and Christianity are just as exclusive as Islam, at least in their fundamentalist incarnations.

The Quran quote is actually quite amusing in that Allah doesn't quite understand that Christ was not the name of Mary's son, and like the Bible's God he has a hard time staying in first person narrator modus--but then again, being God doesn't mean you took Freshman Comp.

Persecutors are always happy when there is a way to justify their actions.

James,
as director of the NAD's Adventist Muslim Relations department, I'd like to thank you for seeking to build relational bridges in a Christlike manner with Muslims. Simply by inviting Musri to speak, you've taken steps to break down prejudices and fears by getting to know a real person and letting facts replace assumptions. It's easier to hold onto beliefs about "Muslim terrorists" when we don't actually know a Muslim... or even when we do, if we continue to read into his or her words what we already believe about him/her, without letting the interaction inform us and extend our understanding.

I also appreciate your attitude in both the article and in responding to comments. It's easy to lose sight of the ultimate goal of loving our neighbors as God does us when we're more interested in proving our doctrines right or finding specks in others' eyes. Oh that Muslims would know Adventists as people who always treat them lovingly and respectfully, in the name of Christ! Imagine what a difference that could make. True dialogue, growth, and change is only possible in a safe and loving environment. If Adventists would consistently choose to create such a space in all interactions with Muslims (or people of any faith group, for that matter), the results would surprise us all.

So thank you, and continue to challenge us to love instead of fear. May you continue to allow Christ to shine through you in a winsome and attractive way.