Avinoam:

It's sad that you had to go through such an irrational ordeal.
But I beg you, don't leave, STAY!
It's people like you that the church needs fighting for a more rational view of the church's functions.
Of course what you were wearing was not offensive to God, only to those who think God went on vacation and left THEM in charge of the heavenly business. Remembe the Pharisees and the Sadducees? Most of them used to sit on the first row in the temple...
Beware of the "saints" in church - often it's only a matter of time for some of them to have some hidden sin exposed... Yes, the same ones that banned you from playing the piano.

Stay and fight this mediocre mentality!!!

@ Avinoan: "...the majority of the church wanted to implement a strict dress code ..."

If that church is already functioning at a such low level, and kees going down,... just look for another church.
Is there another SDA church that you could attend in the area?
If not, then you are in big trouble.
You are always welcome to watch the services at LSU live on your computer: http://lsuchurch.org/live/

Great services by the way. And no tie required!!!
Two services, pic the one that you like, or both:
1) At 9:30, more traditional.
2) At 12:00, more contemporary.

Hope you will find a resolution to the problem. Keep us posted on this blog.
Would you mind telling me where is that weird church??? In case I am traveling, so that I will never go there!!!

Avinoam:
You will not repent watching the LSU services. clean, biblical approach, women-discrimination free services. Try and see!
The Senior pastor is a talented woman, Chris Oberg. A great preacher. Hope you won't be shocked by the fact that she does not wear a tie!!! :):)

George Tichy - Sat, 01/07/2012 - 08:42
@ Avinoan You are always welcome to watch the services at LSU live on your computer: http://lsuchurch.org/live/
Great services by the way. And no tie required!!!
Two services, pic the one that you like, or both:
1) At 9:30, more traditional.
2) At 12:00, more contemporary.
****************************
Dear George and Avinoan,
Let's translate those 2 service times into the times now in London/UK:
1) At 17:30 hours, more traditional
2) At 20:00 hours, more contemporary
(From now until 10 March 2012 London time is 8 hours ahead of Loma Linda time.
From March 11th until March 24th: London time would be 7 hours ahead of Loma Linda.
From March 25th until October 27th: London time would be 8 hours ahead of Loma Linda time.
From October 28th until November 3rd: London time would be 7 hours ahead of Loma Linda.
On November 4th 2012: the time difference would be back again to 8 hours.)

BTW: I have been the Organist at one SDA church for twenty-something years here in Santo Domingo, and they never urged me to wear a tie. The pianist often didn't. In the SDA church where I am now the pianist, there have been no moves that I have been aware of to urge me to wear a tie. Last time I was in Australia, I sat next to a guy (bloke) wearing shorts, and he obviously felt comfortable with his attire and the people around him. No one was turning to give him any dirty looks.

I would suggest that the members of your church take a tour of our churches in Germany where I am told that one of their church young peoples' groups met "au naturel" one Sabbath afternoon out in nature.
Cheers,
Mike

Pluralism as envisioned by Nam would be the death of the Adventist church. I can't right now think of the saying about standing for nothing; that's Nam's vision for the SDA church in its very essence. What is really spectacular is that such deception has been predicted.

Its prediction convinces me even more that doctrinally the SDA church is on sound Biblical grounds.

Necktie vs no necktie?
Obviously not a religious or moral principle involved.
This falls into the category of courtesy to the local customs.
I have been a church elder for 25 yrs, preached numerous sermons at our church and others and I haven't worn a necktie in years (except at my daughters wedding)
My patients would ask me if I was sick if I wore a tie to my office or the hospital.
You would be welcome at our church anytime without a tie.
All the best
Fred

Christians have been very good at emphasizing and honoring our own beliefs while excluding and even ridiculing others or on the other hand minimizing and altering our distinct beliefs while expressing interest and respect for others.

Instead, my hope for the future of Christianity in general and Adventism in particular is that all of us can learn to emphasize and honor our own unique beliefs while simultaneously having the humility to express interest and respect for other perspectives and beliefs different from our own.

This is not relativism or pluralism but rather interdependence. My hope is not for an Adventism which minimizes and waters down distinct beliefs in order to achieve a bland uniformity but an Adventism in which those with opposing viewpoints could express them honestly, openly, learn from one another, and most importantly in the end demonstrate love for one another in Spirit facilitated unity amidst diversity.

This is what I heard Dr. Nam envisioning for Adventism. I hope that he does indeed represent the future of Adventism.

Avinoam,

I hope you had a chance to visit today's service at LSU Church / live. It was one of the best services I ever attended to. WThere was only one service today, a special one at 12:00 (Pacific time). Just superb. It can be viewed also at http://lsuchurch.org.

Those interested in UNITY in the church should watch this service.

Oops - misspelled our Pastor's name - it is Patterson.

"...just another mediocre Protestant(?) church." - Your (not mine) Friend

Please list those 'another' mediocre Protestant churches! I insist, name them!

thanks for the link, Donna. i took a perusal and I like what I see...honesty. Maybe this is the 'above mediocre' that Your Friend says, he appreciates.

Marianne F.

No need to waste sympathy -- think of the souls for which those who mislead will be held accountable. Feel sorry for souls lost and those who led them astray.

Your friend: that those 2 are leading souls away, is a very strong claim, but without any argument it is just a lame and unfair attack...

Fay, thanks for your candor. It is indeed tedious to see that EGW quote that "we should not think that all our scriptural expositions are without error" knowing that the ones who cite that will ignore scores of EGW quotes on a subject they want to revise, such as origins. No one is fooled, merely annoyed.

The liberals never, ever come at us with new "Scriptural expositions," merely with the insistent demand that the Church bow to contemporary culture, with regard to origins, homosexuality, women's ordination, or what have you. Hence, that EGW quote doesn't apply, even prima facie.

The irony of this necktie thing is beyond belief. Neckties are as much jewelry as any necklace. They have absolutely no practical function. They are, in fact, proven to be filthier than a toilet seat - full of bacteria since they're not cleaned very often.

But, I once heard a very prominent Adventist evangelist... a present day star... hold forth on how he didn't even wear a tie clip. Maybe he should go the whole way and "emasculate" his tie. :)

Seriously, though, think about the fact that this issue is even up for discussion, and seen by some as a point of contention.

Thanks...

Frank

How about turning it around and looking at the possibility that a church that would adopt such a dress code, and make it a test for participation and the use of ones spiritual gifts, is promoting a highly legalistic culture that is focused on externals? It's interesting that the NT never once describes what Jesus, or any of his disciples wore to the synagogue on Sabbath. You can bet it wasn't a tie. Meanwhile, God looks at the heart.

I understand the idea of not doing anything to offend a brother or sister who is weak in faith, and can have their experience damaged by the exercise of our liberty in ancillary and disputable matters. This is clear from Romans 14. But this issue is something quite different. That a church would propose a dress code that has no biblical basis, and use it as a criterion to stop "conscientious objectors" from exercising their God given gifts to bless others is in an entirely different ballpark. To me, it speaks of a warped view of spiritual priorities.

In the end, I would personally look for a church community with a healthier climate in which to worship and participate.

Thanks...

Frank

David, you write: "The liberals never, ever come at us with new "Scriptural expositions," merely with the insistent demand that the Church bow to contemporary culture, with regard to origins, homosexuality, women's ordination, or what have you."

FWIW I would refer you to the article I recently wrote on this website entitled Adventism and the Intersex Problem. Perhaps you didn't read it, which is fine, of course. But that article is explicitly trying to responsibly understand what scripture is and is not saying concerning homosexuality. As such, it falls under the heading of "new Scriptural expositions".

You may disagree with my conclusion and whether you think it responsibly treats the subject. That's your prerogative. But your above statement is flat-out false. BTW, it's pretty dangerous to make assertions that include "never, ever". One counter-example knocks it down.

"The liberals never, ever come at us with new 'Scriptural expositions,...' " - David Read

This is fact. There are no "new" Scriptural expositions. There is what there is, and always has been. The Scriptural text, as it is, some parts certainly being interpreted in different ways by different readers.

However, fact is also that most of "the text" is not that difficult to read or understand, one can do it by him/herself. The problem starts when Scripture is encapsulated in a box in which all understanding is subject to what EGW said about it (or "saw", or "copied from..."), then forced upon everyone as a litmus test foir being considered a good, genuine Christian. And this is what is crazy about adventism. This approach is unbiblical, and makes absolutely no sense within the Christian frame (left alone among unbelievers...).

"...never, ever come to us..." - This is one of the problems, the sense of entitlement. It seems that the so-called "conservatives" feel like being on a podium, and the "rest of the crowd" (the "infidels"??) have to come to them almost in attitude of submission. I would just remind people that it's the car that got stuck that goes nowehere.

It's the "dogmatic mentality" that creates friction, not the "liberal" (actually, progressive) views. This is another hypocritical fact in traditional adventism, saying that "we don't have dogmas." Ooohhh boy, may be not on paper, but in practice, yes, there are plenty of them on the plate

From Wikipedia:
"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers."

Any bell ringing???...

Frank7,

You are mistaken, and many with you here on this blog, when you believe that having a gift entitles anyone to a particular election. It is not the gift that matters only but also the spirit and also the regulations. Like I said as an example in another comment, only the Levites were authorized to deal with the things pertaining to the temple. Does it mean that they only had the physical and intellectual "skills" to perform these duties? Of course not. But it is how God organized the system and this for a good reason. And I am sure that some people in other tribes may have thought that it was unfair above all if we consider this notion of priesthood of all believers (by the way, this notion is found in the Old Testament too).

So Avinoam can play music. Does this qualify him for a music position in the church? No, because Satan also knows music. Would you like to have him playing or leading your music also in your church? I don't think so. The disposition of spirit is crucial too for a position in the church. If he cannot get over a small requirement from the church maybe he is not fit for a position in that church. He and some people may think that it says a lot about that church (and maybe they are right) but it says also a lot about Avinoam. Like Tom Zwemer said, it is not a moral issue. And I am sure that Avinoam would have no problem wearing a tie if he was visiting the President or the Governor (above all if it was asked to follow a particular dress code).

Anonymous7, your advice would allow a church to make even abusive requirements. The notion of unquestioning submission/obedience to religious authority is highly perilous. Many monasteries & convents required this back in the day to test "the disposition of spirit" as you call it.

Should churches have a dress code? Probably regarding modesty. But beyond that our concern should be "the disposition of spirit" behind attempts to impose requirements that exceed biblical ones.

Proverbs 25:12
"Like an earring of gold or an ornament of fine gold is a wise man's rebuke to a listening ear."

Anon7

I am amazed that you would go so far, or so low, about the use of a necktie in church.
Or , may be, what bothered you most was denouncing the "power & control" issue that actually runs behind the scenes most of the times, isn't it? Or false modesty "a la Pharisees".

Comparing this to the Satan and Eve event is ludicrous (actually, childish). Where did GOD ordained any use of a necktie in church? There is more in the Bible about DANCING in God's presence than wearing a necktie. When was the last time you obeyed this commandment???

The same men that wear golden watches are usually the ones who forbid women to wear a golden watch... I bet you know what is this called, right?

Once I was invited at a dinnerparty with a European Princess and Prince. I did wear "nice" and appropriate clothing. But the situation is still very different from the situation at church. I did not want to offend anybody, so I tried to dress like they dress (less expensive though) (I tried, I didn't say I succeeded...). But God is very different! He is not a spoiled Prince who invites only those who can afford a certain dress code. You can come to God the way you are.
I would appreciate if our church decided to give away all the money they saved on neckties in order to feed children in Africa or anything like this. This could be the first worldwide necktieless denomination. A great sign, don't you think? And so easy...

Wow, as I have read through this blog, I am struck by the fact that, our recent study in Galatians had absolutely no effect on the traditionalist Judaizers who are hell-bent on controlling the lives of others. The gracelessness, that has been exhibited is astounding.

What warped kind of thinking tries to use a parable showing the Robe of Christs Righteousness, graciously given and stubbornly rejected, as an example of a dress code, self righteously imposed, to exclude the exercise of giftedness for the edification of the church? A traditionalist, anti-biblical, graceless, judaizing, kind of thinking!

And THIS type of thinking and graceless teaching is exactly the reason why people are leaving. People are quick to see the hypocritical nature of the whole thing. Some here demand scripture to prove a "progressive" stand. I ask you to stop twisting scripture to support your TRADITIONS OF MEN!

no problem, you can count on me... (but in Europe it is quite immoral to take off one's wedding ring..)

"And ditto the useless wedding rings and the jewelry? How about it Frau Faust? Maybe we could also include some hungry children in other countries too although maybe this isn't politically correct??" - Your Friend (not mine...)

You are twisting the persperctive again. The issue is not what is ALLOWED or FORBIDDEN. The issue is CONTROL of others. What one wears is nobody's business, as long as there are no moral issues involved, of course.

I am not giving up wearing a necktie most times when I go to church. But it's not my business to judge the guy who sits nex to me without one, and nobody's business when I am not wearing one.
Same for wearing rings, earrings, expensive watches (even if not golden...),or driving luxurious/expensive cars (what about this one?).

Hey.... Jesus didn't ordain any woman, right??? Well, he didn't wear a necktie either, neither did he ORDAIN anyone to wear one! So, I guess that by the ultraconservatives' (golden) rules, the issue is a non-issue, right? (Just a matter of consistency. here..)

Can you imagine someone being criticized for coming to church driving an old YUGO??? (If there is still one running out there...). But yes, following the mentality of the conservative "golden rule" I bet some people would like to implement a "car code" along with the dress code. They are, in essence, the same thing!

I hope Your unFriend drives a nice car, otherwise he will not be allowed to play the piano at church this Sabbath....

Take away people's ability to think independently and by themselves, and you will be able to brainwash them, and than they will be delighted to polish your shoes!!!!! (For free, and thanking you for the "marvelous opportunity" you are giving them!!!).

"The education that consists in the training of the memory, tending to discourage independent thought, has a moral bearing which is too little appreciated. As the student sacrifices the power to reason and judge for himself, he becomes incapable of discriminating between truth and error, and falls an easy prey to deception. He is easily led to follow tradition and custom.
...
"The power to discriminate between right and wrong we can possess only through individual dependence upon God. Each for himself is to learn from Him through His word. Our reasoning powers were given us for use, and God desires them to be exercised. "Come now, and let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18), He invites us. In reliance upon Him we may have wisdom to "refuse the evil, and choose the good." Isaiah 7:15; James 1:5."

EGW, Education

(In response to David Read's comment here although it pertains to a different thread. There I've given my take on the fallacy of dismissing the issue d/t its "rarity."

I found the following helpful--

"Transgender refers to a situation in which a person feels that the gender assigned to that person at birth (boy or girl) was not the right one for him or her. DSD (disorders of sexual development) is about physical sex development (how a person’s body formed), not about gender identity (who a person feels himself or herself to be).

"We [don't] have to have a consensus on what counts as different-enough-from-average to count as a DSD. There is, in fact, no consensus on how small a penis must be or how large a clitoris must be before it counts as a DSD.

"Estimates from specialists working in major medical centers suggest that about one in every 2,000 births at a hospital involves a child whose genitals are atypical enough to make the child’s sex unclear. But, as noted above, if we count all types of sex anomalies, DSD must be considered much more numerous than 1 in 2,000. One review estimates that about one in a hundred persons has some kind of sex anomaly.

"So what we can say w/ some confidence that DSD are more common than the average person would probably guess. ... DSD affects our families, neighbors, coworkers, and friends. 

"People tend not to talk very much about the scientific facts of sex development, and in most cultures, clothing covers up some of the evidence for natural sexual variation. This means that many people simply don’t know about how complicated and varied human sex is. Additionally, until relatively recently, the medical system treated DSD the way cancer used to be treated: with a veil of secrecy and often even shame.

http://www.accordalliance.org/learn-about-dsd/faq.html

"Our reasoning powers were given us for use, and God desires them to be exercised."

George Tichy:And when you do..., you may be compared to Satan, as Anon7 did above.
May be he didn't read the book Education yet...

George, using our reasoning powers doesn't mean doing whatever we want. I wonder what you have understood from the book Education. Maybe you should read it again...

I've read the book, and frankly I find it scary, not necessarily by what it says but by what it implies. In many places it implies that education is great ONLY if it bolsters the SDA paradigm and if it you find that the knowledge you are gaining, is leading you away from that, you need to check your motives. Asking questions is great, as long as it's the 'correct' questions; go beyond that, Satan is gonna grab ya.

Fay, do you find it scary when the Catholic church says that outside of her there is no salvation or that she is the only true church? Or what about Islam where they say more or less the same thing?

Many religions have that claim, that they have the truth.

One has to be right, unless you believe that they are all right or that all of them have some elements of truth (of course, they all could be wrong too).

"That'd simply leave Adventist wedded couples looking like they cohabit without the benefit of marriage, as is popular in the wider culture."

Doesn't this demonstrate, as has been the case numerous times with the libs, that culture is superior to any thus saith the Lord? --Your unFriend

Which 'thus saith the Lord'? Shouldn't co-habiting couples be married?

"Don't you have rules in your own house?" --Anonymous7

Whose house is the church? Who gets to make the rules that exceed biblical requirements?

Dear Your Friend,
Regarding the wedding ring in Adventism:

A wedding ring in most cultures symbolizes that the couple are legally married. All (no exceptions) the SDA Pastors wives in Australia/New Zealand wear wedding rings. When they attend the GC sessions they are requested to remove them.

Wearing or not wearing clothes is another cultural custom. Adventists generally respect the customs of the culture that they are in. For example in Saudi Arabia, men and women cannot be publicly seen wearing shorts; whereas in the US, Europe and Australia it's acceptable. There is a world of difference between the dress codes in the times of Ellen White compared to the dress codes of modern times. Imagine the Adventist pioneers seeing the college ladies sun bathing topless on the roof of Daphinee Chapel at PUC like was common practice when I was a student there back in 1980. (Note: the roof of Daphinee Chapel is out of bounds to men.)

There have been times when Adventist missionaries have been insensitive to the cultural customs, like when they went into very primitive tribal areas and put bras on the topless women at their baptisms. At mission institute this example has been given as an example of mistakes Adventist missionaries have made in the past.
Cheers,
Mike

hopeful:"Whose house is the church? Who gets to make the rules that exceed biblical requirements?"

The church is the house of the assembly, not just of an individual. So an individual cannot just decide for the rest of the group. If a local church decided of a dress code for people in office then people in office have to follow the rules.

Naturally the church has to be balanced as I have seen some local churches "taken over" by a few people and the decisions of the church were in fact the decisions of these individuals. The individuals also have to be balanced as I have seen also some individuals who thought that they could do whatever they wanted in the church without considering if it was appropriate or regard to the rest of the church.

The question is to know if it is wrong for a local church to have dressing standards for officers and if it is abusive to enforce it.

Thanks for correcting me. ..I do apologise...eeks, i read it wrong.

What i read WRONGLY did resonate with my experience, and still does with some of the older folks that i know

If we were to generalize the issue of the tie we will have people poorly dressed in church because they don't see the reason why they should be formally dress. After all, God see the heart, right?

*************

Exactly...God sees the heart. He values the inside over the outside...it's all over the Scriptures. And, the stress on clothing in the NT is to..." put on the Lord Jesus Christ," "clothe yourselves in love, which is the bond of perfection," " put on the whole armor of God," etc. It is a continual spiritual emphasis that the clothing of the inner person will issue forth outwardly in the fruit of faith, hope, and love. This is what God values. How is this issue of tie wearing and dress codes central to this??

It also seems that Adventism has historically had a hard time grasping the principles of Romans 14...and it continues to this day, as evidenced by what's going on on this thread. We have a talmudic like body of instruction on every point of life that has been used to create a legalistic type of thinking that looks to regulate every decision of life with a rule and regulation...not trusting people to make decisions based on their own understanding of biblical principles and their own relationship with God. The actual legislating of tie wearing by a church is a prime example of this. The fact that some here try to justify what has happened to Avinoam based on the fact that the local church simply has the authority to impose such, and that one not bowing to such is simply rebellious, is even worse. It's a total misunderstanding of Christian liberty.

Paul speaks of such things as disputable matters in Romans 14, and that everyone should be left free in their own mind to make their own choices concerning them. He also says that both the weak and the strong should not judge nor condemn one another over such. If tie wearing doesn't fall under this type of category, I don't know what else would. Yet, the condemnation of Avinoam and his actions has rung loud and clear.

Sad...

Frank

Thanks for posting Alex...

The 2 man dialog was just more evidence of an exercise in futility.

Looks like most posters had a necktie polemic party instead of listening to the sermon

Almost a 36 minute sermon and notice how little of the Bible got any attention. Just a quick mention of Acts 10 and 15. ..and the pastor is trying to get ideas on how to be relevant and fill pews???

I heard so many modern ambiguous, general buzz words...
Why not just have a pluralistic Saturday social club where anyone can worship their favorite anti-Christ that they want?

Jeff...why not be like Jesus and start your own program and leave the old multi-level bureacracy wineskin institution alone?

Relevant??? Is anything in the bible relevant for hope and peace?

Polarization??? What do you expect from a collection of sheep/wheat and goat/tares?

Julius never hears anything, radical, creative, or innovative??
What do you expect from an institution that generates, fanatic insubordinate gainsayers infected with SDA pride, paranoia, and passivity?

Julius wants bold changes to meet needs? What needs?

You want people to come to church and feel safe? What people? Dopers, hypocrites, soozers, gays, thieves, adulterers, liars., selfish snobs.gossips..? Don't offend anyone by reading any challenging verses in the bible......Just say we are saved by grace and that the blood of Jesus covers all sins.

16:50 Yes, the SDA need to be like the Anglicans and Methodists and cooperate with ministry groups outside the denomination so that the Gen Conference can bite their nails more about diversion of tithes.
The SDA need to have a minstry to support all Moslems in USA...that will thrill their hearts,

26:15 Room in SDA for pluralism and various approaches.....uh like what??????

29:00+ Have a bunch of SDA who eat whatever they want band together to promote health...Yeah right..
Just serve pork n beans at the potlucks....

29:00 Yes, Julius let's have gays be members so they can feel safe, approved, accepted, and valued...
Didn't even hated Joel Osteen say to Oprah that being gays is a sin as mentioned int the bible.
You trying to get a church larger than Lakewood??

1 John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no PRIEST to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

ICHABOD

What a Cult.

Arguing over neckties.

For your reading enjoyment re: neckties.

http://minmintie.blogspot.com/2008/08/necktie-as-phallic-symbol.html

What a Cult Redux.

Wedding Rings????

Really?

Really?

Really?

That is so, so, so, so Wilsonian.

Fay, let me quote myself from another thread:

"May be some of us should start a new church. I already have a name for it:
CHURCH OF SINNERS

("The Saints" are unwelcome)"

"Anyone with a high view of Scripture would assume that the Bible's teaching on homosexuality still applies to the more than 99.9% of people who are either clearly male or clearly female, but you use the rare instances of 'intersexed' people to cast doubt on the entire Bible doctrine"

Isn't the .1% (or less) statistical amount the same measure by which we are to judge a prophet? Mr. Read, you must learn to not pick and choose your rules...

Late one afternnon the pump that provided all the water to the campus of Old E.M.C. broke down.
My dad and a fellow student were assigned to repair the pump. The pump was down in a sump, water, oil, and grease did abound.

They repaired the pump just as the dinning room was closing. They were refused a seat since they didn't have time for a shower and a change of clothes. They asked permission to eat in the kitchen.
They were refused. They went back to their rooms--showered and changed clothes. Now they were denied as the food line was closed. They both returned to their room hungery. Dad stuck it out until Breakfast. His partner chouldn't take it. So in the middle of the night he broke into the kitchen and ate an entire apple pie. The break-in and missing pie were noticed as the cooks opened for breakfast.

Both my dad and his fellow student were charged and punished for breaking and entering and for thief of school property.
They both resisted the urge to go back to the pump and "unfix" it. But of course neither ever forgot.

Now if the pump had gone down on the Sabbath, the same two students would have been asked to ignore the rule of no work on the Sabbath day and go fix the pump. But no, the chow-line time-line was more holy than the Sabbath. Go figure. Tom Z.

Tom,

Thanks for posting that story. The church is still populated by many 7th Day BADventists.

George,

U can have the "CHURCH OF SINNERS" so that the members can continue to identify with crime and defeat.

The church I would have would be a LIFE ENRICHMENT CENTER where all of the outcasts and criminals would feel welcome and accepted ...and TRANSITION from guilt, shame, chaos, depravity and fear.... to a life of peace, hope and joy as they are spiritually rehabilitated, decriminalized and come to know Jesus... AND... were equipped to minister to those like themselves.

Humans are wicked , deceived, LAW trashing, GOD hating, TRUTH trampling, criminally insane rebels on penal colony EARTH run by warden SATAN. God has a merciful, forgiving, gospel of GRACE rehab program to decriminalize EARTHLINGS.

"U can have the "CHURCH OF SINNERS" so that the members can continue to identify with crime and defeat.' - Jim Roberts

Jim, how would your church treat gays and lesbians? (the LIFE ENRICHMENT CENTER )

And yes, I am changing the name of "my church" to CHURCH FOR SINNERS

(Still the "saints" and judgmental people are unwelcome... because nothing can be done for those... they are already "enriched"... with their own pride...)

Fay,
I noticed he is not wearing a necktie.... so I am not much interested in what he says... :):)

Jim....you and I do have one thing in common; glad it isn't fanaticism, but we are both dyslexic

George,

Just as there are different flavors of SDA, there are different flavors of gays and lesbians.
They would be treated on a case by case basis , just as criminally insane 7th Day MADventists, 7th Day BADventists and 7th Day SADventists would be treated.

consider yourself fortunate

Pagophilus, you also would, by default, be setting up that child for alienation and suicide.

..

Julius Nam need to spend more time with Jesus and the bible instead of the NOT WISE intellectual worldly crowd.

Anonymous7, you sound just like some of the brethren who defend the dress code by saying "if you were invited by a governor or a president or a businessman you'd also wear this or that". I don't understand how this is relevant to the church. The church is not a presidential office or a corporation or a investment bank. And it's not as if go to church in swim wear, I already wear fine trousers and a shirt. I just don't see the need to wrap around my neck a long piece of cloth for any kind of decorative purpose, it's ridiculous. And I feel nobody should be prevented from playing the organ, collecting offering, reading the mission story, etc. only because they see no meaning at all in wearing it.

Avinoam, the church should be even more respected than the White House! But unfortunately we take the sanctuary as a place to have mundane conversations or worse.

In any place of importance, there is a dress code. The church is not your personal house where you can do whatever you want. If the local church has decided to have a particular dress code, there is nothing wrong in following that dress code even if you don't like ties. You are not entitled a position just because you want one. There are conditions to follow. They may seem arbitrary to you (and maybe they are) but that the choice of the church. If you want things to change then attend the next business meeting and propose the change. This is one way you can use to change things.

"---1) What should the church do with those people who were born "unstraight?"
There is no such thing. That is a combination of upbringing/influence and a choice made later on in life. - Pagophylus

Pago, please, if you have no education whatsoever on this issue (as you just portrayed yourself), abstain from writing such silly things. I asked 3 serious questions. This is a serious blog and I expected reasonable and knowledgeable people to contribute aiming to expand our understanding of the issue.

But your answers are just outrageous and show that you have absolutely no knowledge in this field. As a Psychologist I do, and I tell you right here that you are either totally ignorant on the issue, or you are outdated, or you discriminate about gender issues, or you just like to annoy people. If you can't contribute with something realistic and factual, go for a walk - but don't mess this environment with that type of BS (Bold Statements)!!!

@Avinoam:

I have seen grown-ups "misbehaving" in the church so everything is possible. But I was saying that you were misbehaving. I was just saying that a local church has the right to define a dress code. You said that it was the church elite who decided to come with a regulation. This church "elite" is elected by the church so they represent the church. If the church disagree with a particular regulation, it can change it. This is why I told you to bring the issue to the next business meeting to speak and possibly vote about it. For the time being it seems that the church body has accepted that regulation for its officers and you have to follow it.

What I find interesting is that you are asking the church to consider that wearing a tie is not a big deal while you are making your wearing of a tie a big deal.

Concerning God, He is interested in the least detail. But even if He is not interested in the tie issue, He is certainly interested in your character and your behavior in time of adversity. And to me, it seems that this tie question is an important one to you and that it creates a kind of stressful situation for you. Now how are you going to act in that situation? I am sure that God is interesting in that.

I am not entirely opposed to protecting some of our folk from flawed doctrine. We aren't all equipped to filter and process the varied perspectives that are presented to us. So those tenets we are convinced are worth believing are at some levels worth protecting.

Don Tucie
The voice of one crying