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Will 'The Great Controversy' Project Harm Adventism?
Back in the 1980s, I was the Church Ministries Director of the Quebec Conference. I was alone at the office when the phone rang. I was instantly startled by the tone of the voice at the other end. An angry man went on the attack: “Is this the headquarters of the Seventh-day Adventist Church?”
I asked who he was.
“I am the police commissioner of Montreal.”
Somewhat frazzled, I asked him the reason of his call and obvious unhappiness.
“We have received numerous complaints about a book entitled The Great Controversy that is being placed in letter boxes in a “wealthy section” of the city. After some research we have identified your Church as the publisher and distributor. A quick perusal has clearly shown that the book is very anti the Catholic Church and thus falls in the category of ‘Hate Literature’ because its content can easily create hatred between communities”.
Then he quoted from an article of law that prohibited such an action and mentioned the heavy fine that went along for distributing material attacking another church.
My mind went numb for a moment, then I explained that our church did not usually do mass distribution of books, only short brochures that summarised who we were and what we believed. I added, that it was very possible that some individuals might be acting on their own and that we would certainly find out who and try to stop the action. He relented and agreed not to proceed with the threat.
Later I reported the incident to the conference president who quickly found out that a church member from another conference had donated $20,000 to some local members for the purpose of purchasing and then distributing the book. They selected the wealthy part of the Montreal. The action infuriated the residents who also had a long history of complaining to the police about Adventist church members who on Saturday mornings caused quite a bit of inconvenience by parking anywhere they could due to a lack of car lots. Of course, the two incidents were not related but together they had exacerbated the hostility of the community.
The saddest part was the reaction of those who had initiated the “evangelistic” dispersal of the book. Upset when the conference asked them to stop, they accused the leadership of cowardice, apostasy, and bowing to the pressure exerted by the “agents of Catholicism that infiltrated the church.” The incident taught me how difficult it was to explain to determined believers that not every action was Biblically timely or wise. Instead they found comfort in their understanding that good people were always going to be persecuted, even by their own church at times. I believe that the action of the conference was instrumental in protecting the Adventist church from what might have been a very nasty court action (we all know the frenzied appetite of the press for such occurrences).
Therefore it was with apprehension that I heard of the General Conference plan to freely distribute The Great Controversy on a large scale. I believe that the book was inspired and I know that Ellen White wrote that it should be placed in all homes, but I find myself wondering if doing so at this time in history is wise.
Did not the Apostle Paul write that we should not treat the prophecies with contempt but test everything and hold on to what is good. Doing so will enable us to avoid every kind of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Not treating the writing of the prophets with contempt is about testing them as to their timeliness and relevance, which will help us to avoid using them in ways that are not good.
Written in the United States of the nineteenth century, The Great Controversy had quite an impact because America was a Protestant country and any writing that depicted in dark overtones the doings of the Catholic Church was bound to be highly popular. Some of the words that Ellen White used to describe the Pope and the prelates of Rome are very harsh but the political, social, and religious contexts made it understandable and facilitated the spread of the book. Today, any publication that dares to use a similar approach is quickly vilified as hate literature. We condemn similar anti-Catholic language used by white supremacists in their rallies, should we be careful not to be perceived as doing the same?
In 1988, I became the pastor of the Ottawa church. After my first sermon I was standing in the foyer greeting the members on their way out. A distinguished looking lady introduced herself, then told me that after being a Charismatic Catholic for years she had recently been baptised into our church. She informed that she had been severely criticised by family and friends but had maintained her relationships. She then invited me to meet with them, which I readily accepted for the following week. When I arrived, the lady greeted me but the ten other people in the room remained withdrawn. I had hardly had time to take my seat when to my great surprise the hostess asked me to justify the publication of The Great Controversy, which she said had almost prevented her from joining our church. Some well meaning Adventists had given it to her. She explained how harsh she had found the author’s statements against her church which, she added, had always been there for her whenever she had gone through some difficult and painful experience. I noticed the nods of the others. Then the dam burst, accusations and feelings of resentment surfaced. They had all read the book and were quoting those passages that referred to the Pope as a monster and also described Satan and the priests conniving to destroy the Truth. The remarkable thing was that they did not question the historical facts but the interpretation of the facts as well as the overall tone and the ‘vitriolic’ words. I must admit that defending the book against these accusations was not easy. I most certainly do not wish to repeat the experience.
Mass distribution, I’m afraid, will cause a similar reaction. I do not believe that having to face irate people and the press and maybe the court, charged with distributing hate literature, is necessarily what Christ had in mind when he said that those who would be persecuted for his namesake should consider themselves as blessed.
Beyond my personal experiences, I have listed below some reasons why I am not sure of the wisdom in mass distribution of The Great Controversy.
The length of the book:
It is well established that reading is no longer the favourite pastime of our contemporaries. Furthermore, reading religious works has been out of fashion for quite a while (even for believers who prefer to watch religious programs on TV). Today, communication must be fast if only to retain the attention. Few people have or take the time to read anything unless it is “texted”, emailed, on Facebook or Twitter. Newspapers are folding because of the decline in readership. I believe that it is much to expect that people would take the time to open a six-hundred-plus-page book, which moreover requires at least a passing interest in European history.
Postmodernism:
The West at best shows a very limited interest in religion and secular Australia and New Zealand show almost no interest at all. Add to this the fact that postmodernism rejects any idea that pretends to gather together clusters of events that have no natural link with one another and interpret them in terms of a common theme and ascribes meaning to them. The Postmodern mind finds it problematic to accept what it calls a meta-narrative defined as the overarching explanation of a state of affairs. The author of The Great Controversy does just that when she gathers historical events covering almost two thousand years and incorporates them into a vast panoramic concept that she identifies as the war between God and Satan. As acceptable as this seems to us as believers, this approach is highly suspicious to most contemporary readers.
Does it contain error?:
Adventist scholars spend quite a bit of time researching our beliefs and practises. Most of the time the research will confirm the doctrine under scrutiny, but sometimes the scholars are lead to acknowledge that added insights shed new light that calls for a re-evaluation of some beliefs. Over time the new understanding becomes part of our system of beliefs. Thus, many scholars and well-informed church members consider somewhat outmoded some prophetic interpretations and beliefs that are presented in the book. Three cases in point are (1) the signs in the sun, moon, and stars dating back some two hundred years are not considered to be indicative of the nearness of the Parousia; (2) the understanding of the investigative judgment; (3) That it is Satan and not God that pours the seven bowls (Revelation 18) over the wicked. The people who might choose to read the book will probably be the kind of readers that will question some of the theological material and, finding it wanting, reject the book altogether.
As a result of all the above, I’m afraid that the rubbish bins of our countries will be filled with discarded copies of The Great Controversy. That would be a tragedy indeed and certainly not what Ellen White intended when it was first published.
—Pastor Eddy Johnson is the director of ADRA Blacktown and pastors two churches in the suburbs of Sydney, Australia.
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Click the up or down arrow on this comment to share your general impression of this article.
I would like to hear from some American pastors with the kind of courage it took to write this post.
Every system creates its self-justifying myths, with good and bad guys, heroes and villains, and emblems of identity for members. There is nothing wrong with this. The problem arises when the originating community passes their myth on and on, without regard to changing times and circumstances.
It is time to write a new story which enables a hearing for the good news. If Adventism cannot survive without it, the "Great Controversy" theme as an arch-narrative needs to be re-written as the story of love and justice throughout history, not as the story of "truth" and "persecution."
If one were to read KKK literature of the 1930's one would find a close parallel to the tone of Great Controversy. My mother's side of the family were Romon Catholic. We lived just across the tracks from the Pound. Wisc. Catholic Church. We had a back porch view of the Church and the Priest's dwelling.
During the early 1930's the local KKK would burn a cross on the front yard of the priest's home.
My Aunt Bea was a Nun Sister Mary Leonard. She was a tiny woman less than 5 feet tall. She had a Master's degree in English and was a trained nurse. She taught nursing in several catholic hospital settings her entire adult life. She was a kind, gentle, Christian lady that I admired very much.
I later taught At Marquette University College of Dentistry for eight years. The intellectual level of the Jesuit Priests was impressive as was their social mission in a disciplined academic setting.
There were a few hair shirt pietistic young priests who were tolerated by the leadership with a bemused smile.
I could have a congenial conversation with the President and Vice President of Marquette much better than I could with any officer above me at LLU.
I don't doubt that there are dark passages in the history of the Church--name any denomination.
But as an alleged prophectic people, Adventists have been notoriously wrong. It was only been civil constraints that have protected some from a similar fate of those of the Dark Ages.
As cruel as Great Controversy is on Roman history, its greatest crime is its depicting of the final generation. The book has absolutely no redeeming features. Tom Z.
*The Great Controversy*, while critically important for the Adventist community, is a complex and in many ways deeply problematic book. When I read about the distribution plan the first thing I worried about was the anti-Catholic tone of much of it, which is so rooted in anti-immigrant bias and hysteria of the 19th century. Given that this kind of bias and hysteria also characterizes the early 21st century, it seems we have a profound responsibility to clearly think through, as a community, how to make sense of what can easily be read as hateful and prejudiced, before spearheading another book distribution project. A decade or so ago it was not uncommon for me to find a Catholic student weeping in my office, unable to understand the source and motivation of the vile and hateful things he or she had heard otherwise amiable and loving fellow students, and even teachers, saying about them in and out of class. I have been glad to notice that this has not happened in some years, and I would hate to see it start up again.
We also know that there are many elements of this book that raise serious and for some troubling questions about Ellen White's process as a writer, the meaning of her inspiration, and the nature and limits of her prophetic function. These are questions the Adventist community has never really begun to adequately process for itself, and has spent much of the last 35 years sweeping under the carpet.
If this new distribution plan stimulates renewed, honest and open discussion of these kinds of issues within the community it will be to the good - I just hope it is not at the price of inflaming hatred and legitimating persecution, or spreading invalid and non-productive understandings of the nature of Ellen White's ministry. Of all the things that we could invest resources in as a community to better serve the needs of a suffering world, this seems like a curious choice - and one that we have not adequately thought through for ourselves.
**************************************************
Aubyn Fulton, Professor of Psychology
Pacific Union College
"We are all more simply human than otherwise"
Congratulations for your sincere and non-polemic style. I entirely agree with you. Some of the wording (anti-catholic and aggressive expressions) of the Great Controversy has alreay been changed because of interventions from Europe in 1913. In the 50- and 70-ties of the 20th Century whole sentences and passages in the Great Controversy had to be omit in the German and Spanish versions because of new laws in Europe and Southamerica. At that time we didn't even know the terminology "hate-crime" in Europe. -
The GC pushes the Great Contrversy project saying that we can publish different versions of the book. If we distribute the entire book in great numbers we will also be in great trouble. If we publish only "light" versions journalists will ask why we didn't publish the entire version with all the vitriolic woding. The trouble will not be "light".
I suggest that the GC should also give the PARL and COM Directors in the US, Canada, Europe, and Australia etc. a crisis intervention strategy together with the Great Contrversy promotion material. I don't understand why PARL and COM directors don't pay more attention to this project. It will be them that wll have to answer embarassing questions - not their presidents.
Anton
The writer admits: "I believe that the book was inspired and I know that Ellen White wrote that it should be placed in all homes."
This will continue to be the problem: those who are firmly convinced that only an inspired prophet could write such scathing review of church history and indicting one in particular, truly reflects most of Adventism. Until the church can admit that she has lost all her relevance for today, and simply file her books into the dustiest basement of libraries, this will be revived again and again.
What would Adventism be with EGW and her prophectic words? This is the crux of all such remarks. What would Momonism be without Joseph Smith? Neither can separate from their prophectic founder, and ignoring them will leave Adventism, as well as Mormonism, bereft of the very reasons for their existence. Adventists claim Jesus as their founder, but without EGW they would become part of Christianity and no longer "separate."
Keep it up, Teddy and your fans, it backfired in the 80's and tomorrow it will only fill the trash heaps.
Elaine
I have heard many stories of people who came into the Church after having read the Great Controversy.
I think the key is tact and balance.
My biggest caution would be the length of the book more than any fear it would offend others. I think that observation is accurate.
I myself try to give away books (one by Chris Blake), but it is not easy to find people who like to read. Maybe at some time in the future people will have cause to pick up the book and benefit.
In the meantime, I would recommend Patriarchs and Prophets or Desire of Ages first (or Steps to Christ as the need arises).
One thing I would like to see is more attractive printing (like you see in the Happiness Digest Series).
We do need, however, to focus on nurturing SDA writers. There are a lot of books to be written to lay the groundwork for The Great Controversy in my opinion.
"Searching for a God to Love" is one I would suggest. I am sure there are others.
Beyond this, our outreach needs to be way more personal than it is. I say cover all bases, but emphasize the right things. People these days, more than anything are looking for acceptance and genuine friendships.
Aubyn Fulton said:
If this new distribution plan stimulates renewed, honest and open discussion of these kinds of issues within the community it will be to the good
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It just might, and it will be good for all involved. I think interest and appreciation for EGW will grow among other things if this is done right.
What is the picture (apparently of a handbill) below the post title in reference to? Is this something Adventists handed out at some point?
I think it would be a huge leap of understanding for Europeans, Asians, Middle
Eastern, or Latin Americans to believe a United Nations of the World will issue a “decree against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, denouncing them as deserving of the severest punishment and giving the people liberty, after a certain time, to put them to death. Romanism in the Old World [Europe] and apostate Protestantism in the New [North America] will pursue a similar course toward those who honor all the divine precepts” (GC 615).
Every nation would have to support this degree in order that final judgments might be just and final. Everyone would have to realize their decision to honor the Sabbath or not will seal the fate of the world resulting in severest judgments of God upon humanity with the end of world history in an enormous bloodbath of war and natural disasters.
EGW says that this is possible due the impersonation of Christ by Satan which stirs world courts to support a universal death degree to those who honor the 4th commandment.
I wish I knew what Hindus, Muslims, Buddha’s or secular Europeans think of this point of view? In their mind is this easy to believe or does it sound implausible?
In 2008 John McCain had to back away from John Hagee, a Texas teleevangelist of the Gambino variety, when the press discovered that he was spreading anti-catholic bigotry of the kind found in Great Controversy. (Nowadays you can only get away with this kind of hate speech if you direct it at Muslims.)
It's of course up to the SDA church leadership if they want to disgrace their church by spreading this hoary conspiracy theory that masquerades as theology, but I don't see that members should enable the GC by participating in spreading this book.
One thing would have been if the book's view of Roman Catholicism was true, but it's nothing of the sort. It's hard to use any other words than slanderous paranoia to characterize it. Let's go over it briefly:
1. Before 1517 there was only one Western Christian Church, headquartered in Rome. Any crimes committed by the Western Church before the Reformation--and there were many--must be laid at the feet of Western Christendom.
2. When a divorce takes place, new constructs appear, the ex-husband and the ex-wife. Any crimes they committed before their divorce, is a shared responsibility. Protestants accusing Catholics for the crimes of the Middle Ages is the pot calling the kettle black. Both share a responsibility for the Crusades and the Inquisition.
3. If you want to blame the RCC as opposed to Protestantism for anything, you must start at the Reformation. The problem is that historically there is no material differences to speak of between Catholics and Protestants since the 16th century. Both groups held on to the most basic elements of their common theological heritage, both continued persecuting heretics and killing them when they could, and both groups moderated themselves as a result of political pressures growing out of the Enlightenment. Only bigotry can cast one as of the devil and the other of God.
Aage
If this distribution brings some sort of backlash it would not be because of the Gospel of Christ. It would be because of the inflammatory stance of the SDA message which has nothing whatsoever to do with Christ's Gospel.
It's one thing to be persecuted for distributing the Gospel message, but quite another thing to be taken to task for calling other people worshipers of the devil. Maybe this is the only way SDAs get persecuted so they can imagine they're in the right. What could be more telling than to be persecuted by the Catholics no matter what the reason. Some sort of circular reasoning - "see we knew it, Catholics will be persecuting us in the end', but we will have made that happen by instigating them to defend their honor as a Christian church. What a mess! It's like the little twerp complains he got smacked in the mouth by the "big guy", but doesn't say he stuck his tongue at him first.
In 1973 SDA historian Donald McAdams came across EGW's first draft of the 1888 GC chapter on Huss and Jerome. The entire chapter, McAdams discovered, was basically a rewrite of J. A. Wylie's The History of Protestantism, including its historical errors. The most interesting part of this chapter, though, was EGW's own material, which was so poorly written that her editor deleted all of it from the final manuscript.
Here are a couple of samples from EGW's rather pathetic prose--and I'm not making this up--that was not deemed sufficiently inspired to make it into print:
"And the day has come in 1887 when the Scripture is being fulfiled when signs and wonders shall be wrought that if it were possible they will deceive the very elect and the man of sin will come with lying wonders, wonders that will apar in sight of men to prove *that* a lie is Gods truth. But the only safty for Gods people in this age is the sure word of prophecy; Gods oricles are to be the sure foundation tradition customs human doctrines will be urged upon the people but they have the detecter in their hands that tells them what it is safe for them to accept and what to reject...."
"We trace the footprints of Satan and his emessaries by the fruits that mark their pathway from generation to generation to the present time outward events are not nee [sic] evedences. ['the' crossed out] God's [mid toward?] us The very first Christian was put to crul death, and the very first murder escaped alone. Gods outward providences are not to be read as the exact evedences of his love and affection toward us. When ever there has existed and continue to exist a self righteousness and a persecuting spirit there is nothing like a missionary spirit how ever they may weare the missionary cload let us look to see if the Spirit of men are changed who have not the restorative power of the Gospel of Christ Jesus up to the time of the Lord 2500 years after the time ['when this' crossed out] of the murder of Abel what is the decision of our Lord. He was the truth his judgment must *therefore* be true He was one who could read the hearts of all men and he would not darken the picture already dark enough He says out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts adulterous fornications murders thefts covetousness wickedness and deceit lacivious and evil eye blasphemy pride foolishness. All these were ['working with a' crossed out] active agents until the charicter be benovalent Jesus proved it before all heaven before the universe he the perfection of all ['exeel' crossed out] excellence the brightness of the Fathers glory come to earth and as a messenger from heaven to restore by his precept his example the moral image of God in man. But his own nation said he hast a Devil crucify him Who was it the chief priests the rulers of the people came down to the period after his death and resurrection and ascention to heaven..." and it goes on and on.
Since I'm a teacher by profession, let me propose some study questions at this point:
1. Why haven't I heard anything about this before?
2. In what sense is this chapter of Great Controversy inspired, when the words of Wylie the historian have been retained but those of EGW have been tossed out?
3. What do you make of the fact that EGW places Creation 2500 BC?
4. Obviously, nobody would ever have gotten through Great Controversy if EGW hadn't had an editor with the skills to discriminate between inspired rubbish and inspired gold and the ability to make God sound lucid. Was her editor also inspired? (If you did the same, edited a book or manuscript of hers and published the edited version, you'd be condemned for the effort.)
Aage
Aage,that should be 'were her editors also inspired?' :-) :-)
Rich
I was proof reading while you wrote it. It should be "Was her editor" (of this chapter). But, yes, none of us can claim verbal inspiration, can we?
Aage
I attended the Southside Seventh-day Adventist church when I lived in Edmonton, Alberta. We, as a church, carried out a mission project of distributing a copy of the Great Controversy to every home in the south east section of the city where the church was located. I don't know the exact count of how many books were distributed but they filled a train box car. There were probably over 30.000 books. The project took about two years to complete as they were handed out door to door. There was not one complaint.
I understand the concern that many people will be turned off by receiving the Great Controversy in the mail. However, isn't the theology here that we do this to alert people and so deprive them of excuse? So whether they like it or not doesn't matter. After they get it in the mail, they have been presented with the choice, our obligation to them is complete, and as far as "finishing the work" we needn't concern ourselves further with them.
Kelly: It is good that there was not one complaint. Now, it would be even more interesting to know whether your church was able to evaluate if the project was successful or not. A boxcar-full represents a lot of money, even if one assumes a low per-copy rate and bulk mailing. Was there much response from the mailing? Did people investigate Adventism, with positive results, as a consequence? Or was there minimal response or none at all? No complaints can mean many things, including the book was just mostly tossed out. But it could be helpful to evaluate past attempts to see - pragmatically - if the cost/benefit was worth it.
Loren, I detect tongue-in-cheek with your comment. But to carry that logic further we need not mail books. Such an unwarranted expense. On a cost/benefit basis we need only blanket the globe with radio via AWR and the obligation shifts to the potential recipient. N'est Pas?
If Ellen White said to use the Bible instead of her words in our public discourses, why would the church break with the spirit of her words and throw her words out to the public without preparing them?
Kelly,
No complaints and now the Edmonton churches are overwhelmed by the numbers that were converted. Right? ... Or could the effort put forth in this endeavor have been better spent helping the hurting on the streets of Edmonton.
BTW glad to see you read Spectrum. We need your input more often.
Aage...the info in your first paragraph is explosive, but hardly surprises me. It just leaves me dumbfounded as to what it will take for apologists to actually sit back and say, "WHAT???" To me, this just shows that this is not about truth and evidence. That was the hardest pill for me when i started to question Adventism, for I was so brainwashed to truly, truly believe that I belonged to a group of people that valued the honor of truthfullness, above all other peoples. For a while, I could scarcely believe what i was experiencing. Now, after many years looking back, I can see that the level of deceit was far greater than appeared on the surface,...it goes deep, permeating. And now do deny that there is any level of serious deceit, the apologists have to become part of it......blows my mind
Why are we making apologies for what EGW wrote (or in many cases - 'borrowed')? It seems to me that with the black/white no gray, my way or the highway tone set by Ted, a revisionist approach to EGW should be unacceptable. This could very well be a healthy thing for the church. Perhaps after Ted and his agenda are through, a phoenix will arise from its shambles - a phoenix-church that can no longer make apologies for EGW, no longer delete entire passages, no longer paint out her and her staffs jewelry, no longer sweep unscientific and un-factual claims under the rug, no longer pretend she wasn't ordained, and no longer put her before or even on par with the Bible.
Personally I think EGW would be happy to see such a church. A healthy Bible-based church. Not the lip service we give now to the authority of the Bible while trying to act out perfection in our lives. Rather, an actual grace oriented church modeled after the life of Christ and no longer after the well-meaning, but dated and contextual, wishes of a 19th C woman.
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
Cherilyn said:
If Ellen White said to use the Bible instead of her words in our public discourses, why would the church break with the spirit of her words and throw her words out to the public without preparing them?
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I think this might be a case of well-intentioned people taking Ellen White a little too literally. She apparently stated that she hoped this book could be in every home.
I think some people have taken this to mean that it is the most important book of all that she wrote and that we should actively distribute a copy to everyone. (Or that maybe we are even directed to do so.)
I tend to think Ellen White herself would disagree with this.
She was adamant that circumstances change things and that her counsel should be applied with reason and common sense since this is what God expects (a rough paraphrase of her statement: "God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense."--Bio., vol. 5, pp. 312-315).
I think Ellen White very much believed that the principles she outlined were what was important so that the church could be raring at the bit to make them personal and to then interpret them in creative ways that would glorify God.
There is, however, a strain in our church that is suspicious of such creative autonomy. They are much more comfortable with an instructional approach ("This is what to do." etc) In other words, some people are more comfortable being told what to do. Such are less welcoming of the idea that "Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things." (Bio., vol. 5, pp. 312-315)
Interestingly enough, I think that once they are sincere, God blesses their efforts. God is not vindictive and spiteful (or scornful). While He might wish they would exercise their creativity as beings made in God's image, and come up with new ways to present the unique message in the 21st century; I think God loves their efforts and blesses them. We might see greater success if the other half (the more adventurous) would pitch in wholeheartedly.
Are the doctrines of the SDA church impossible to uphold with EGW's approval? Is it possible to envision a viable, growing church without her?
If not, it is truly a product of deceit from beginning to end. If it is the only Christian church of all the thousands of denominations that must rely on a single individual who has been proclaimed inspired, a prophet of the Lord, then God help us. It is no longer a church with Christ as its head, but has replaced him with a faux "prophet."
If this is not true, consider: had there been no one as EGW, and proclaimed a prophet, would there still be an SDA church?
Elaine
Dan Clarke said:
Kelly,
No complaints and now the Edmonton churches are overwhelmed by the numbers that were converted. Right? ... Or could the effort put forth in this endeavor have been better spent helping the hurting on the streets of Edmonton.
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Dan,
I think that the church needs both kinds of people.
Some people are more comfortable sticking to a prescriptive formula. You cannot doubt their sincerity. They really believe that these methods work. I think that their efforts will not go in vain--not because they are "right", but because God is good and His desire is to save people anyways.
What we need is for people who believe in a more relational evangelism to also give it their best shot. Yes they'll be underfunded; but I think God will also bless their efforts.
There is no need for either-or. This is a both/and.
I think that people these days are looking for hope. They need to know that they are valued and that there are people in this world that they can trust. Eventually they will discover why (or because of Whom) you are so trustworthy.
I think there might be more effective ways to reach people, but ultimately:
1. People can only work the way they are most comfortable.
2. God will get the glory--not our methods.
Elaine,
I don't think it's possible for the SDA church to exist without Ellen - in as much as its genesis was built upon the spines of her books (compilations). However, this doesn't mean that the Church cannot clean house. In fact, the Church MUST clean house in regards to the position to which it has elevated EGW, the excuses it has made for her human (and therefore understandable) errors. It's not so much EGW for which the Church must apologize - anyone with an inquisitive and thoughtful brain can sift through the context of her contemporary cultural and societal norms. Rather, it is for what the Church created her to be for which it should apologize. Not only to the world SDA community, but to her (ruined) family.
But I suppose this is something you and many others here recognize, and the question is really whether or not the church is strong enough to withstand such a move without fracturing entirely.
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
The too, these are real people we're trying to reach/give hope. We might as well get to work and stop arguing about it.
Nothing much will change as this is the nature of our church (Didn't Pastor Seibold write an article to this effect: "Whose church is it anyway?"). Let us just think the best of others, support one another and move forward.
At least that's my opinion.
Hi Also,
I agree both kinds of people are needed. We put our eggs in one basket too many times.
That was just a little jab at Kelly as he is a friend of mine and a fellow Albertan
Have a Happy Sabbath All!
With an attitude like that you should not be an Adventist pastor.
The Great Controversy is a concise summary of the history of good and evil and the attacks against God's people by Catholics and others. It is correct in all its assertions. people may not like it, but that always goes with challenging people's existing ideas.
There are many wonderful people in the Catholic church, but that does not mean that the organisation isn't being used by Satan as his primary means of achieving his ends.
And how can you be an Adventist pastor not believing the investigative judgment?
"How can you be an Adventist pastor not believing the investigative judgment?"
Simple: Never preach on it, and no one will know whether you believe or not!
Elaine
>>> If Ellen White said to use the Bible instead of her words in our public discourses, why would the church break with the spirit of her words and throw her words out to the public without preparing them?
Why doesn't some investigative reporter look for links between the Wilson family, who ever is printing the GC books, and the White Estate.
When you see someone say "lets buy millions of copies of these books, and give them to people who will throw them in the trash" you have GOT to be suspicious of a financial motive.
Those of you who were SDA during the Folkenberg administration will know that such connections are plausible. Those of you who were SDA during Teddy's dad's administration will also know that finances within the upper levels of the SDA church often leave much to be desired.
/Bevin
I am curious how Ted takes the following quotes into account or does he think there will be no reaction?
There is danger that our ministers will say too much against the Catholics and provoke against themselves the strongest prejudices of that church. There are many souls in the Roman Catholic faith who are looking with interest to this people; but the power of the priest over his charges is great, and if he can prejudice the people by his stay-away arguments, so that when the truth is uttered against the fallen churches they may not hear it, he will surely do it. But as laborers together with God, we are provided with spiritual weapons, mighty to the pulling down of the strongholds of the enemy.—Letter 39, 1887. {Ev 574.2}
Avoid Unkind Thrusts—Let not those who write for our papers make unkind thrusts and allusions that will certainly do harm, and that will hedge up the way and hinder us from doing the work that we should do in order to reach all classes, the Catholics included. It is our work to speak the truth in love, and not to mix in with the truth the unsanctified elements of the natural heart, and speak things that savor of the same spirit possessed by our enemies. All sharp thrusts will come back upon us in double measure when the power is in the hands of those who can exercise it for our injury. Over and over the message has been given to me that we are not to say one word, not to publish one sentence, especially by way of personalities, unless positively essential in vindicating the truth, that will stir up our enemies against us, and arouse their passions to a white heat.... {Ev 574.3}
Just as the SDA church "chooses" its favorite supporting Bible texts, it also chooses its favorite EGW quotes. Once in a while, they might be appropriate, but for the most part, they should remain between the covers of the red binding.
Elaine
I have heard several times about some link between the Wilson's and the printing company. What are the facts? What is this based on? What are the implications? What are the concerns?
Dan Clarke said:
Hi Also,
I agree both kinds of people are needed. We put our eggs in one basket too many times.
That was just a little jab at Kelly as he is a friend of mine and a fellow Albertan
Have a Happy Sabbath All!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok. I get you.
I have a question though.
Is Quebec more Catholic than Alberta?
I was wondering if that may have caused the reaction narrated in the article as well as the lack of reaction that Kelly (from Alberta) spoke about.
If so, I think this is where Ellen White would have counseled that "Circumstances alter conditions".
Eddy, perhaps a closer reading of TGC may reveal that an essential step to bringing down the great persecution is for church-goers to park their vehicles badly. All the better if they are Durangos, Lexuses, X5s and Sequioas, to hop across those curbs.
Is the Gospel contained in this book the Great Controversy?
Millions of Catholics will be in heaven according to their own lights. But as a system arising from her deadly wound, show me that the Catholic Church should not have a masterplan again to persecute all that reject her authority! Just little clues: What's in your US$1 bill: whose eye is it? What's the meaning of ANNUIT COEPTIS & NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM?
Even most Adventists don't know that The Federal Reserve is not belongs to the US Government at all since it's owned by the Central Banks owned by Catholics Jesuits--believe it or not!
Who does control and shake the stock prices, commodities, or creating unstability as it happened in Iraq or Libya? What's the main purpose of Catholic church via its Jesuits to unstable the whole world?
Sorry, but don't ever campaigning the hatred of the book "The Great Contoversy" unless you made some true and fair articles about JESUITS or at least about The FEDERAL RESERVE. Catholic will not persecute again only because of today's Pope's nicest smiles and "peace" sermons? Oh Lord...help me!
The first thing the Adventist Chruch should do would be to establish that it is a Christian Corporate Body. The Book Desire of Ages would be a far better choice. That book at least emphasises the four great themes of the Gospel. The Glory of the Incarnation; The Glory of the Cross; The Glory of the Empty Tomb; and the Glory of the Instalation of Christ as our Advocate--more over it affirms the Priesthood of all Believers. We each and all can come boldly to the throne of Grace. Then the invitation: Come Let Us Worship Together! Let Jim Coffin, Ron Osborn, or Smuts Van Rooyan write the invitation. Someone who loves to tell the Story and does it so well. Tom Z
Desire of Ages would be great. It was largely written by many great Christian authos and was highly inspired by they insights and writings!
It is interesting to see the protest, hand wringing reaction to this GC outreach effort of the book GC
I would think the naysayers would say "'go for it, I give it the green light "because evidently there would be all of the problems associated with the program and then the corporate body/leadership would have vege-egg on its face and then the anti authority , Korah klones, power- that- be despisers would go.."naaa naa nee naaa naaa, told ya so, good riddance, like that lawsuit? Maybe the GC would crumble and/or crash and burn. The biggest downside would be.....who would they gripe about next?
Where would Adventism be with the Catholics an those conspiring Jesuits constantly infiltrating our church? Who would be their adversary? The papacy is far less powerful today with all the Pope's pronouncements who is paying attention? Only the Adventists who are watching for the Catholics to begin the Inquisition again with all Adventists their target. Look under your bed tonight--there's bound to be a Jesuit hiding somewhere.
Elaine
Eddy wrote.."I believe that it is much to expect that people would take the time to open a six-hundred-plus-page book, which moreover requires at least a passing interest in European history."
Yeah, mail out a book like Desire of Ages which is over 100 pages more to read.
Most SDA don't even spend time reading their SS lesson.
Regarding religious material, the secular western world has the attention span of a retarded fruit fly with ADD.
Typical outreach tactics by a group who doesn''t know how to get the lay person outreaching at ZERO cost. Some of us who care ,outreach every week to scores, if not hundreds of the unchurched and/or Christian deceived at ZERO cost. I have mentioned here and to personal ministires leaders ,and at church.
Almost all are NOT INTERESTED.
Salt and light???? What a joke.
Mail out the GC, maybe the beauracracy will crumble and then thousand or most pastors will have to bail out and then the lay people will need to get out of the pews. The ones who really care anyway.
My theory is different, and unique:
I think that the SDA Corporation is sick and tired of getting complaints from people being writen on the Spectrum Forum. So they want the persecution to happen quickly, to end their own tribulation.
What a better way to trigger a persecution than to attack other denominations openly and viciously?
And for this to happen, what could be better than a large scale distribution of the main book that attacks others so violently?
The campaign may end up being successfull ...
One reason for the lack of outreach by most is that the are hesitant, doubtful, ashamed or embarassed of the SDA church.
Fine... are they ashamed of Jesus and/or the bible?
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
George
The campaign may end up being successfull ...
Bad press, good press...both is press
Stay tuned.... those who wish for a grand distribution of The Desire of Ages will not be disappointed.
Coming soon on Spectrum... an international reading forum on Ellen White's best book that will include Adventist scholars and many from other faiths.
I thought "date-(time) setting," scare tactics, name calling in the name of religion i.e. Infidels, other churches are "Babylon," judging others not of the SDA faith had gone by the wayside. What happened to "love thy neighbor?" I have catholic friends I'd rather break bread with than some selfrighteous SDA's I have run across who can quote EGW forwards and backwards. It's time to put the plan on the trash heap of history.
D. E. Park
The seven bowls/vials are in Revelation 16, not Rev. 18. Before we start correcting the errors in Great Controversy, lets correct the errors in this article.
Elaine Nelson,
Are you Adventist? And if so, why?
I ask, out of respect, for in every post I see you critical of the church I love. While I don't agree with every stance and action the Adventist Church has taken, is taking, and will take, I am honored, and humbled, to pastor in the church I grew up in. Yes, I grew up in a highly legalistic, critical home, but I was encouraged to think, question, ponder, and make my own decisions as I grew into an adult. Even after leaving the church, and exploring other options, I have found the comprehensive view we hold of truth in the Bible to be refreshing, and perhaps the best ideal of God's perfect character of love.
Ellen White is the most amazing gift God has given the world in these last days. I don't consider that Ellen White is only the property of Adventists, although she greatly impacted the Adventist Church in her leadership and writings. While I would be first among many to admit she has been used incorrectly, often in a judgmental, hypocritical way, I don't ever consider undermining her God-given authority to write as led by the Holy Spirit.
While many of her writings were specific to a person, situation, or time, there are those writings, such as the "Conflict of the Ages" series which were written for everyone who choose to read them. If I believe, as I do, that God inspired Ellen White, than I must also believe the Holy Spirit guided Ellen White in writing the Great Controversy. Ellen White herself said the Great Controversy should be spread "as the leaves of autumn", but she didn't say God wanted it that way (although that may indeed be the case). As I believe the Great Controversy, among other books, is pertinent to Christians, and non-Christians all the same, than I must accept what has been written in the book as a message from God for our last days.
I understand the argument for the "harsh" language in the book. Under the appropriate understanding of Ellen White, her gift from the Holy Spirit, and the writing style of the book, I would consider giving the book to others. I believe I would do so only after I know they are grounded in Christ, and I have gotten an opportunity to know them well enough that I could be trusted to share this powerful book with them.
Here is the issue; giving the Great Controversy cold is to many like getting a cold glass of water in the face. To some it's revolting, to others refreshing. We could argue we send them out, and trust the Holy Spirit to find the right recipients. We could also encourage our members to love their neighbor, and by gaining their trust, we would then look for the Holy Spirit to provide the timing to share the book. When understood in love, the Great Controversy is an honest read, that must be understood in it's context of Biblical prophecy and historic realities.
I sincerely hope Elaine, that your heart is not so bitter (as it always appears in your responses) that you would reject Ellen White, and other Adventist truths as understood through the lens of the Bible, and therefore reject the Holy Spirit's truth being revealed in your life.
Pastor Dean Waterman
Community Praise Center
Alexandria, Virginia
@ Dean Waterman: "I don't consider that Ellen White is only the property of Adventists..."
Let's not forget that EGW's books are actually NOT a property of any Adventist at all. Neither the Church or the members of the church. It's the private property of the WHITE ESTATE only. A good sourche of income, by the way...
"...that you would reject Ellen White, and other Adventist truths as understood through the lens of the Bible..."
This is news for me. All my life in the SDAC I always heard that the Bible should be interpreted through the lens of EGW. Which was already very bad. An now this? We should understand EGW through the lens od the Bible? This is just nonsense! Why do we have to understand EGW at all if we already have the Bible? So it's actually what was always evident to me, that EGW is kept on a higher pedestal than the Bible itself.
Yes, ADventism has made progress in the agricultural business, growing all kind of NUTS everywhere... Unbelievable!!!
Dean, If I seem bitter it is because the church was less than truthful about so many things that it would take too large a post to list.
Truthfully, it is because I have found that denominationalism has no part in salvation. The SDA church began with untruths and continues. The Ellen White that was sold by the church never existed.
She was said to have only a thrd-grade education and such a gifted writer! All the while her many editors made her work passable. As Aage has demonstrated above, had her work not been heavily edited it would not have been worth the paper it was printed on.
Yes, she will always have devoted fans as the SDA officials have seen to it by not disclosing the efforts to keep secret her many copyings from other writers and never given credit. Also, the many erroneous facts about health have been no longer printed. IOW: if careful editing, eliminating much of her writings, and re-writing, re-wording, and re-publishing in modern languages her outmoded ideas and thoughts, the EGW Estates continues to be most profitable with their constant advertising in SDA publications.
You may have been taught to question, but all Adventists were not; in fact, it was actually discouraged for many who waited until later in life to personally study and discover what had been kept secret. "Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me.
The real unanswered questions: Must one be an SDA to be saved? Must one observe Sabbath to be saved? Must one believe in the vision in the cornfield of what happened in heaven in 1844 to be among the saved as Ellen said, or else the door would be forever shut? Finally, must one accept Ellen as a prophet to be saved?
You may have answered them, but would you share the answers to those three questions for the rest of the readers here?
Elaine
In 1973 SDA historian Donald McAdams came across EGW's first draft of the 1888 GC chapter on Huss and Jerome. The entire chapter, McAdams discovered, was basically a rewrite of J. A. Wylie's The History of Protestantism, including its historical errors. The most interesting part of this chapter, though, was EGW's own material, which was so poorly written that her editor deleted all of it from the final manuscript.
*****************
Aage...
I never saw this before, and I must say, it is nothing short of shocking to me. The words and thoughts of the prophet herself are not deemed even legible enough, let alone inspired enough, to make it into publication. Does that leave Wylie as an inspired source? Is it because EGW and her editorial team put her stamp of authority on his work that it became inspired writing? But it could only be under her name, and of course never his, in the eyes of the Adventist community?
This is an absolute mess!
Thanks...
Frank
Great article. I actually have a couple hundred words written of a very similar article that I was to slow to get finished and published. I think your article is rather more gentle than mine, which I had tentatively titled "Why I think the Great Controversy Project is Kooky." It will stay on the shelf for a later time or maybe forever, but I want to add some comments:
1. This is a perfect case of taking what Ellen White wrote blindly without looking at time and place.
2. I believe that Ellen White would think this project as it is apparently currently perceived is kooky for the following reasons:
A. The book is too long.
B. There are historical inaccuracies that are known today but not then.
C. The language of her writing is not representative of today's written or spoken language.
D. The length of sentences and paragraphs are to long for what people are comfortable reading today.
E. Given the current state of the world the tone of the book is horribly harsh toward Catholics. It is possible they would have been seen as less harsh when written, and at least within the Protestant world this view of Catholicism was the predominate view.
F. The Scriptural references need to be updated to a modern version.
G. I have no doubt that the emerging power of Islam would also be addressed - please don't particularly read meaning into this except to say, that in many respects, Islam is having a much more profound impact on our world than Catholicism.
3. I firmly believe that if Ellen White were alive today she would either do a massive rewrite of GC or write an entirely new contemporary book.
4. Loren points out one of the great errors of Adventism. That it does not matter if we do things that drive people away from Adventism and even away from God, as long as we feel righteous about what we have done. If fact, I am fearful that we gain a level of satisfaction when we drive people away because it fits our view of the end of times.
5. Finally, I wish we would actually sit back take a look at where in North America Adventism is growing and figure out what they are doing. Yes there are a few places where this is true.
To use a very traditional Adventist approach. I think God will hold us accountable for what we do with the $200 million it will take to pull this off.
My the Cliff Notes version of the article I was going to write.
In the grip of grace
Steve Moran
Honestly, if we're foolish enough to do this, I hope the Adventist church faces a "very nasty court action (we all know the frenzied appetite of the press for such occurrences)."
Federal Reserve, your post hardly warrants a response. But in case you have any interest in re-examining your assumptions about the world, I suggest you google "bankrupt archdiocese" and then ask yourself how there can be multiple archdioceses filing for or considering filing for bankruptcy if in fact the Catholic church runs the Federal Reserve? I know... since you are a conspiracist, you'll respond that this is just a smokescreen, a diversionary tactic by which the Catholic church seeks to make us believe it is not in control. My response then would be that your accusations are just a smokescreen to make us believe you have secret knowledge that we don't have, when in fact you do not.
Frank 7....I'm sure that this will be of interest to you also.
http://anti-adventism.ru/main/20-ellen-g.-white-the-myth-and-the-truth.....
But don't you think people should be made aware of the end times. Our concern is not their response, but commission of God. Why is the church so afraid of facing reality. The world is crumbling, hurricanes in unexpected places, might I add earthquakes too. Jesus is coming soon, and we're trying to keep people happy and content?? We must be exposed to unruly and unnatural behaviors, second-hand smoking, and other things that offend us, but we must be scared to share truth as it is? Maybe the door was not opened to distribute these books then, but maybe a door has opened now. People now more than ever need to know of Satan's deceptions in these last days. We need to not sit back and enjoy the peace we have. All the earth is trembling because Jesus is coming soon and we His ambassadors are sitting enjoying the calm. We have to warn the world of a coming storm... and there is not much time left. There will be no easy way in this post-modern world to tell the truth. "When the truth starts stepping on toes, it ceases to be truth." Let's go tell it.... "wise as serpents and harmless as doves"
"when the truth stops stepping on toes, it ceases to be truth"
Let me ask this, if God sent a prophet - definition being a prophet is like a mouthpiece of God. It is not the person then that is held in high esteem but rather the message itself. And the origin of the message is God. Therefore, the Bible and EGW should be in sync. EGW writings give the message for God's last day people. God's message through her could not be opposite to the BIble because it is the same God who gives it. It is God's message given through a mouthpiece that being EGW. BTW, the message is copyrighted by God.
Eddy Johnson, I just gave you a green arrow. Thank you! :)
Jim Roberts, why would I want to see my Beloved Community, which involves Adventists, Catholics and many more, crash and burn? That would make me very, very sad.
This situation is deeply convoluted, though. Yes, people are embarrassed about the church. I believe that there are good reasons for that, which Aage partially pointed out.
(Whoa, Aage, why haven't we seen that?! Now I believe the part about the "third grade education," though I can't really boast about my literacy either - but that is just shocking, really!)
Posted by Aubyn Fulton - Fri, 08/26/2011 - 10:27
We also know that there are many elements of this book that raise serious and for some troubling questions about Ellen White's process as a writer, the meaning of her inspiration, and the nature and limits of her prophetic function. These are questions the Adventist community has never really begun to adequately process for itself, and has spent much of the last 35 years sweeping under the carpet.
Aubyn, that is exactly the issue, IMO. As SDA theologian and historian, Arthur Patrick said years ago:
The time is far past when reversionist responses are likely to do anything but further damage to the credibility of Ellen White.
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/white/patrick/egw-teachers.htm
Basically, the response since 1919 has been to kick the can down the road, and now the road is hitting a brick wall. I feel this in every cell in my body.
I would encourage people to read this 1993 Spectrum story written by Jonathan Butler about Ron Numbers, as it is instructive about how this story has played out, and the impact it has had on actual flesh-and-blood families (corrections welcome from any involved):
Historians as Heretics
http://www.spectrummagazine.org/files/archive/archive21-25/23-2butler.pdf
Bright 'lights' cast deep shadows. One can only psychologically project so long before the projections start reaching up and biting one on the behind. (Don't ask me how I know that....)
It is a truism that one becomes like what one resists, so yeah, I think Adventists do need to think and talk deeply about Catholicism and how they may be unconsciously mirroring it even while resisting it outwardly. I believe that will require an indefinite moratorium on passing out anti-Catholic literature, and a whole lot of prayer.
It it unrealistic and naive, I think, to suppose that monolithic religio-political organizations are toothless. The Catholic Church certainly isn't toothless, as Matthew Fox has recently pointed out to his own distaste - RCC recent history is far from benign, as we all know, but neither is Adventist history benign - far, far from it.
http://www.matthewfox.org/
As I said until I nearly drove Donna crazy, hierarchical organizations are hotbeds of abuse. If you don't think that's true of Adventism, you haven't seen the seamy underside of it like I have, which would leave you with no doubts.
(BTW, Bevin, I also think Adventists should be really watchful about who is making money on these "instant church" projects. Just a hunch.)
We are hearing the swan song of authoritarian, hierarchical organizations, I believe, but if we can all muster some Grace, the swans won't have to crash in flames.
Zack Plantak's current call for "spiritual reality" is timely, I think, as is Matthew Fox's call to reinvent Christianity, as is Stuart Kauffman's call to Reinvent the Sacred, as is Thomas Berry's call for an Earth Community.
The universe is a community of subjects, not a collection of objects.
--Thomas Berry
It saddens me to have to agree that this is not the right time for a mass distribution of Great Controversy.
1. People need to be convicted of the truth of the Adventist doctrines from the Bible. Only after that has happened will they be interested in the themes and the history presented in Great Controversy. In working to win people to our message, we should always begin with the Bible and prove the doctrines from the Bible. Starting with Ellen White makes us look like a cult.
2. The top story in the world today, number one by a wide margin, is the worldwide revival of Islam. Many people who are casually interested in Bible prophecy are mainly interested in whether and how Islam fits into Bible prophecy, and there is but little about Islam in Great Controversy. Some of the things that are in Great Controversy--an extended discussion of the Reformation, an extended defense of the Millerite movement--seem less relevant to people today.
3. The Great Controversy may very well constitute proscribed speech in places like Canada and Western Europe, which do not have a First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech. In these places, the thing that gets you in trouble is not whether what you've written is true or false, but whether it hurts the feelings of some specified victim group. Mark Steyn was persecuted by the Canadian "human rights commissions" for accurately quoting a Norwegian imam:
"We’re the ones who will change you,” the Norwegian imam Mullah Krekar told the Oslo newspaper Dagbladet in 2006. “Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries is producing 3.5 children.” As he summed it up: “Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours.”
The quote was accurate, but it put Muslims in an unfavorable light, so Mark Steyn and Maclean's Magazine were dragged through the Canadian "human rights tribunals." Same thing only worse for Dutch politician Geert Wilders. He was criminally prosecuted in the Netherlands for saying hurtful--but mostly true--things about Islam.
It is not problematic to sell Great Controversy in bookstores or on the Internet, or to give it to people who have already expressed an interest in the Adventist message. But mass distribution of it in places like Canada and Western Europe could be illegal (although I don't think a case will actually result, if only because Catholics are [informally] not one of the protected victim groups: Muslims, gays, lesbians, etc.) But even if we're unlikely to get into legal difficulty, distributing Great Controversy in those countries is mostly a waste of time and money anyway. Most of the books will end up in a landfill.
I just published a blog article on this subject, you can read it at:
http://cafesda.blogspot.com/2011/08/great-controversy-and-canadian-law.html
Adventist Media and Conversation Blog
RT1, just a friendly reminder and nothing new here: Don't ever campaigning the hatred of the book "The Great Contoversy" unless you made some true and fair articles about JESUITS or at least about The FEDERAL RESERVE.
Since the Federal Reserve privately belongs to big bankers, not the US Government, and was the product of the Jesuits...Have you ever ask yourself that you keep trying not to belive this fact by condemning others as "conspiracists"? Who owns The Federal Reserve? Why did the Catholic chuch via its Jesuits assassinate President JF Kennedy? Why? Who are the next victims? Btw, in general, I'd rather believe to former Catholics than to former Adventists.
Federal Reserve, now you've tipped your hand. You are a Jew trying to pin the blame on the Catholics! EVERYBODY knows that the real power behind the Fed are the Jews. Right?!! http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=177
I have heard some Adventist evangelists refer to the Medieval Church as being the persecuting power, rather than the RC church - and such a view is correct - at one time all Christians were of the RC faith so it was our very own ancestors who persecuted. The power that will persecute in the future will be an amalgamation of various denominations, not one church. There will be a polarization into two groups: those who follow the God of freedom to choose; those who follow the consortium that follows the god who uses force to compel the will.
Why can't the book be revised by the White Estate?
I have seen the copies to be distributed.They are absolutely tacky. All I can say is to quote a famous Adventist from another time period which aint really all that long ago: "Oooh mah soul." Little Richard.
"Federal Reserve", What country are you from?
Is this Dan from Lacombe formerly from Calgary Central?
I believe we will see many people come into the church that have read the Great Controversy.once the events that are foretold in it begin to happen. These books are seeds for the kingdom. That's my belief. As for helping the hurting on the streets, that is also a worthy ministry that the Edmonton churches have done.
Ah Ha! So it is you! ahahahahahaha
Ron Corson, in your blog you mention two Canadian criminal code sections, "Advocating genocide" (§ 318) and "Public incitement of hatred" (§ 319). But you've entirely missed the system that has proven so chilling to free speech in Canada, to wit, the "Human Rights Commissions." Anyone who's been through the human rights mill, a vilely contemptible, quasi-legal bureaucratic shakedown, would absolutely love to have the straightforward protections and safeguards provided by the criminal justice system.
Enlighten yourself by Googling "human rights commissions" "Mark Steyn and Mclean's," "Ezra Levant," and "Stephen Boissoin" (who was ordered to pay $7,000 for disparaging homosexuals in a "letter to the editor" of the Red Deer Advocate).
This was a great article. But one question has been left unaddressed: when exactly would a good time be to distribute such a book? I don't foresee a time when it wouldn't be offensive, or when, as David Read pointed out, it wouldn't make Adventism seem like a cult.
I was always taught, and still believe, that Adventism is a movement about striving towards biblical Christianity. While Ellen White has been instrumental in the development of this community, it remains that her work is peripheral to our main objectives--to preach the gospel in light of the three angels' messages, and to live out our faith. Valuable as the Great Controversy might be, its main focus is not the gospel.
This issue of hurtful words is intriguing. Is there any risk attached to quoting the words of Mullah Krekar, for example, when they may be read in Canada?
Anyway, when someone says something hurtful, and the aggrieved party complains, an apology ought to be enough. But, published words are a different matter.
So, suppose someone takes offense at the above quotation and requests redress. What steps could be taken, by way of explanation or retraction?
If TGC was to be updated to take Islam into the picture, there could be an innate hazard of causing offense. In that case, how would the publishers cover the risks?
Just thinking out loud.
Trevor, maybe Aage can see if one of his friends in the home country can prevail on Mullah Krekar to retract his statement.
Great things will happen to the church if the GC is distributed as proposed. The saints will rally, and the lukewarm will disappear. The followers will remain, and the thinkers will flee for the hills. The church will be persecuted, supporting the notion that it is the remnant. Tithes and offerings will go up as the saints vote with their check books, while the total number of adherents will decline, reducing the pressure on bulging churches and the need to employ additional ministers. The Review and Herald Publishing Association will make a profit, at last. All of this will provide a much needed correction to the current social structure of the church, ensuring that teddy is returned as life president at the next GC session.
We should be so grateful.
There are some really nice NRSV Bibles out there, some leather-bonded, some with a zip, and if someone would knock my door one day and offer me one, or if I'd find it in my letterbox, I'd be more than happy to accept this gift. Why aren't we investing all that money to give out Bibles with good quality paper and good cover material (for some reason I doubt people would be throwing such Bibles into the garbage can)? Is it because we're worried that the Bible could, potentially, lead a person to God but not necessarily to the Adventist denomination?
@Robert Ramsay: "Why can't the book be revised by the White Estate?
Why the White Estate? Are they "inspired" too? Is it a genetic phenomenon in that family?
Revising the book, a.k.a. cleaning it up, would be agreeing that the book is not perfect, thus jeopardizing the very idea of EGW's inspiration.
The church will never, ever allow this to happen. Oldwhiteism would be undermined if they did so.
I heard that the RCC and the Protestant Churches heard about the 50 million GC books project, and they decided to counter-attack with their own plan:
To distribute 50 million of Walter Rea's book, THE WHITE LIE.
And now, what do we do Mr. President????????
What connection does Ted Wilson have to the company who is involved with this project? What does he or his family or friends have to gain from this project ? Monetary or non-monetary?
@Avinoam: "Is it because we're worried that the Bible could, potentially, lead a person to God but not necessarily to the Adventist denomination?"
Yes, this is part of what "cultism" is.
In our case it's Whitecultism. It's telling people that there is only one true church now, a special one because it got some "new inspired scriptures" that have been added to The Scripture to make the latter complete and finally usable...
I just wonder what it would be like to belong to a true SOLA SCRIPTURA ADVENTIST CHURCH? Bible ONLY!
Imagine sermons based only on the Bible! With no reference to "other books" as source of God's revelation and truth.
A SS quarterly based only on the Bible???? I doubt the current editors could do that.
Current pastors would need to be re-trained for such a complex task...
Peter,
You have asked a pertinent question. Let us know what you find out.
So David Read's concern about spreading the Great Controversy is that it doesn't cater to the bigotries du jour, islamophobia and hatred of gays and lesbians! The portrayal of Roman Catholicism as Satan's synagogue had even less to do with reality back in the day--widespread though it was--than the anti-Muslim screeds that hyperventilating right-wingers such as Mark Steyn are spreading today. These people have always been around--those who hate anything and everybody who look different or are different. In American history they are known as the "know nothings" and "nativists." The Klan that remerged after D. W. Griffith's movie, Birth of a Nation, in 1915, encapsulated all the bigotries of the day, going after Blacks, Catholics and Jews. If the Klan is still around today, I'm sure they've already added Muslims to their hate list.
And David, Norwegians have the same high opinion of Mullah Krekar that you have. His has been a scandalous presence and a national embarrassment ever since he applied for asylum in Norway. The only reason why the government hasn't been able to get rid of him is that he'd be executed if he were returned to Irak. Krekar, like any fundamentalist preacher, believes that great days are ahead for his message, that soon some kind of latter rain is going to take it beyond critical mass and set the world on fire. Well, he's about as right about that as those who believe that you can generate a fabulous revival of primitive Adventist godliness by spreading the Great Controversy.
PS. Of Elmer Gantry, Sinclair Lewis' fictional mountebank evangelist, he says:"He had learned that the Pope at Rome was plotting to come to America and get hold of the government, and was prevented only by the denunciations of the Baptist clergy with a little help from the Methodists and Presbyterians...."
Aage
Anony_mous: "when the truth stops stepping on toes, it ceases to be truth"
I don't know who you're quoting, but that's a the sort of asinine phrase you'll hear as a sound bite on some emotionally-based, poorly researched AFR program.
Truth may step on toes, but just because it's steps on toes doesn't make it the truth. Untruth is going to step on just as many toes, but similarly just because it steps on toes doesn't make it untrue. The fact of the matter is, people are going to feel trampled by truth, untruth, myth, fact, rumor, theory etc.
“Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily...” - Thomas S. Szasz
Until we are humble enough about ourselves and what we believe in and are willing to suffer that injury Szasz refers to, truth will ALWAYS step on our toes. Only when we're willing will truth tap us on the shoulder if, to our own delight, it doesn't first slap us in the face and announce "Here I am!!!"
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
@Peter: "What connection does Ted Wilson have to the company who is involved with this project? What does he or his family or friends have to gain from this project ? Monetary or non-monetary?"
I know nothing about their (possible) gain. What I know is about the LOSS that THE CHURCH will experience in term of social image. Millions of enemies will be created!!!
A few people have a "bright" idea at the GC, and millions of ADventists around the world will have their social and religious image damaged or destroyed forever. What kind of strategy is this???
The Bible commands to spread the Good News, which is well defined in the Scripture.
The book Great Controversy IS NOT THE GOSPEL!!! It's just a compiled book that targets people easy to catch with fear. After reading this book people actually become fearful and jump in the nearest boat just in case...
Again, I ask: What would a SOLA SCRIPTURA ADVENTISM look like???
David Read,
To model the intolerance of hate speech in Canada is something any developed country should strive toward. The cases you mention were indeed hate speech - particularly Stephen Boissoin - where he left the protection of the church walls where particular beliefs such as his are protected and aired them in front of people in the pages of the paper without the context of A) their approval, and B) the personal relationships of fellowship in church. = hate speech. He was let off easy in my opinion.
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
I remain very interested in the source of the handbill(?) pictured above of Nixon and the GC quote. Can anybody help on that? Alexander?
@Steve Moran
You have provided a superlative summary of the problems with this project. All I have left to do is issue a hearty Amen.
Are these the mega-thick paperback books with tiny print, poor paper, and a tacky front cover? All qualities in a book that repel readership?
Perhaps a blessing: tactics to repel and discourage the reading of hate speech.
In January 1980 the then General Conference President Neal Wilson called a meeting of nineteen Adventist scholars and administrators to Glendale for two days to consider the recent findings of literary dependency in all of Ellen White's writing, not just in The Great Controversy or Sketches in the Life of Paul. They determined after hearing and reviewing the evidence provided by Walter Rea that the Adventist Church was facing a sever problem that had the potential to unsettle many faithful followers over the sourcing of Ellen White's writing, in all of her writings, except a few earliest books. Don McAdams was there and told the group that every paragraph in the Great Controversy should be footnoted if its derivation was to be properly recognized. Walter Rea stored this nugget in his mind.
And recently, after years of cross-reading in multiple sources, determined that McAdams was absolutely correct. Ellen White basically copied every paragraph or its ideas were derived from other sources not her own. He coded each paragraph and sent this to the White Estates. There is a copy of this thick book in the Heritage Room at Loma Linda University, and he may have also sent it to Andrews where his papers will be deposited.
Professor Fred Veltman found 31 percent of The Desire of Ages could be attributed to non-Adventist Protestant writers so you probably have a problem there too if you recommend this book for its beauty, unless it doesn't bother you that Ellen White denied consistently throughout her writing life that the very words she used were her own, unless supplied by an angel. In such instances she used quotation marks.
Cheers
tjoe
This action of the Seventh-day Adventist Church represents the Judaizers of Paul's day.
Jesus condemned them in no uncertain terms as recorded in Matt. 23: 12-15.
None of us stand in a position to point fingers at the sinful history of others. Condemnation is not our role. If we have responded to the invitation to Christ to enter the door He opened for all, it is our duty to go out in a healing ministry and invite one and all to enter that same door. There is no such invitation in any of the 678 pages of Great Controversy. It is a purloined self righteous bit of puffery.
The question that needs to be asked is: "How can a book, based upon the human errors of history, the distorted understanding of prophecy, its fear generating intent, and the self aggrandizing of the promoters be evangelistic in any sense of the word?"
Frankly, as presently constituded the Seventh-day Adventist Church has nothing positive to say to its own members let alone the world at large. It should be addressing the beam in its own eye before attempting to remove the mote in anyone elses eye!
For an institution to be founded in disappointment to end in disrepute and rejection by sincere thinking people is a very sad commentary on humans that insist on running ahead of the Lord. Tom Z
"Why can't the book be revised by the White Estate?"
It would have to be done at least every generation, as no longer are the Catholics the enemy de jour but it's Muslims, and at the current pace, by the time the book was "revised" there would likely be another "enemy." Adventists require enemies, and have since its birth: they have always been more "against" than "for" anything. Condeming other churches is their M.O.
Elaine
David Read is correct, Canada has problems with free speech issues because of their human Rights commission which appears to be corrupt and inept. It appears to be an outgrowth of those who believe in hate crime legislation but could not get the legislation into the law. If the Adventist church got involved somehow with that group and the other high profile authors who are being frivolously tried by the human rights commission I would say go for it because they would win this issue in the end and be heralded for protecting Canadian free speech rights.
From an article on the subject:
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“Canada’s ‘human rights’ laws are abominable,” he said, “especially Section 13.1 of the Human Rights Act, which criminalizes any speech that makes a person feel uneasy. So it’s not a matter of truth, or evidence, but of feelings.”
Section 13.1 prohibits speech, including speech on the telephone, or writings on the Internet, that is “likely to expose a person or persons to hatred or contempt.”[4] Whether this is “likely” to happen soon, or in the distant future, the law does not specify. Nor does it define speech that is “likely” to do this. In practice, “human rights” commissions have allowed plaintiffs to define it, based on their subjective feelings.
“Now, finally, there is quite a stirring against the human rights commissions—at least among the newspapers,” De Valk said. “We hope this is beginning to change the environment.”
Canadian newspapers have been increasingly critical of “human rights” commissions since complaints were brought against Ezra Levant, Mark Steyn, and Maclean’s magazine. Levant, when he was editor of the now-defunct Western Standard, fell afoul of the “human rights” regime when he published the notorious “Muhammad cartoons” to illustrate a news story about them. Maclean’s, Canada’s most widely circulated magazine, published excerpts from Steyn’s book, America Alone, that discussed the growing Muslim influence in Western Europe.
But Levant, Steyn, and Maclean’s have vigorously defended themselves. Their high-profile cases have led to calls for investigation of the commissions’ procedures and even for repeal of portions of the Human Rights Act—first by newspaper, and lately by members of Parliament. Meanwhile, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have launched their own investigation of the commissions.
“The Canadian government has got to be convinced to act,” De Valk said. “We have a Conservative government and a Conservative prime minister; but it’s a minority government, so the Conservatives can’t go forward without support from the other political parties.” http://chalcedon.edu/research/articles/canadian-human-rights-commissions...
Adventist Media and Conversation Blog
Glenn,
Google for "catholics crucifying nixon" (with quotes) and you will find it. It appears to have been a Branch Davidian pamphlet. And oddly, their web site still features it prominently. Apparently he's not a crook in their eyes.
Mark
A reply to Robert Ramsay "Why can't the book be revised by the White Estate?"
The answer is obvious.... if the White Estate begins to modify or remove sections of Ellen White's corpora of writings where will it stop? Should the amalgamation of man and beast statements be altered for people offended because of nineteen century ideas of racial supremacy, for instance.
There is at least one instance where we know that the White Estate removed sections of The Great Controversy. (Most Americans are not aware of this.) The German Constitution after WWII included a section that speaks to churches making derogatory statements about other churches. It is not allowed in Germany and carries stiff criminal sanctions. So when The Great Controversy was translated into German the government warned the White Estate to remove certain offensive statements against the Catholic church or expect to go to jail. The letter probably was also addressed to the General Conference leadership since the White Estate is owned by the GC. After taking up the warning with legal council those sections were removed in The Great Controversy...a fairly easy compliance motivation. So it can be done, but perhaps it takes the threat of jail time. Thus, if you find The Great Controversy offensive in the English version against the Catholics learn to read German. Those section have been "whited" out.
Cheers
tjoe
Joe,
So why doesn't the White Estate just translate the German version into English, and ... "woooof"...., problem resolved!!!............................
Regarding the "handbill":
http://www.the-branch.org/Catholics_Crucify_Nixon_Watergate_Jesuits_SDA_...
https://ldpd.lamp.columbia.edu/omeka/exhibits/show/group_research/partne...
I'm not personally in favor of mass mailing the Great Controversy. It appears to be an injudicious move -- and lazy, as well. Where we should take the time to befriend those we wish to help, and if the door opens for sharing, all well and good, we instead carelessly throw a book into "the streets" like so much propaganda, and hope that someone will pay attention. Surely there are more effective ways to share whatever issue might matter most to us.
But what concerns me more is the way in which some approach inspiration. The claim of the "enlightened" is that they don't believe in verbal inspiration of the prophetic writers in Scripture. And I agree with that point of view. But then along comes a modern-day prophet, and her validity is dismantled, using the argument that verbal inspiration is the hallmark of God's messages. Why is verbal inspiration of the Bible incorrect, but EGW must be verbally inspired in order to be genuine?
Forget about EGW's theological and historical viewpoints for now. Her main role, as seen in Testimonies Volumes 1 to 9, and other books, was to provide personal correction to individuals. Visions were given her that revealed the personal and secret lives of people, and the recipients of these messages many times acknowledged that she had been shown accurate portrayals of their lives. Some changed their actions, others resisted. The fact that EGW could know information that only could have been revealed to her by God, gives the stamp of authenticity to her testimonies. From that foundation, it is up to us to weigh whether some of her other observations were inspired or just her human understanding, or even statements made in her uninspired moments of daily living.
As to the fact that she received only a third-grade education, I would expect her writings to look like the extract presented by Aage. I don't expect polish. But, to me, the divine message bleeds through the clumsy phraseology. And unless one is a believer in verbal inspiration, the manner of expression should not become an issue. Indeed, for even the more educated Bible writers, when you read their phraseology in the original Greek, it can be just as confusing and disjointed.
Reading, say, Matthew 20:1 in the Greek translation, it literally reads, "like for is the kingdom of the heavens to a man a housemaster who went out when early to hire workmen into the vineyard of him agreeing and with the workmen for a denarious the day...." and if this were read from right to left, as done in that language, it reads even more poorly, "to a man heavens of the the kingdom is for like workmen to hire when early who wnet out a housemaster...."
Editing was essential to make the core thought be readable and understandable. Likewise, for EGW.
I think the reason why there is this brouhaha over her writings is because those who raise the objections actually still believe in verbal inspiration..
Now George....why doesn't the White Estate just remove The Great Controversy from its inventory altogether since it was not written under the inspiration concepts we learned to believe, but a copy from many sources merged by the help of "bookmakers" and literary assistants......and "woooof" ....problem resolved!!!!!......
Then take the next step. Surely, the Adventist evangelists and/or scholars could create a shorter, more attractive marketing instrument to catch the imagination of the "unwashed" living in the market space of the wicked. Move to modern times and use TV documentaries like the Mormons have done showing families around a table of abundance and all joined together in happy and supportive conversation.
Cheers
tjoe
This generation is a truth averse people. We live in a society with its "victims" of obesity. The genes are at fault, it's not that people eat too much food and drown in soda (and sit in front of the TV and video game). Our economy is certainly going to collapse very soon because society "deserves" the American lifestyle of living beyond its means and running credit limits to the max, government included. It is not likely that those that take too much will cut back and start giving.
So why doesn't it surprise me that this generation doesn't want to hear religious truth either. How quickly we forget that the persecuting church of the Dark Ages; the church that killed the martyrs and prevented access to the Holy Scriptures, is the same church that is prophesied to join with the lamb-like beast, turned enforcer of Revelation 13. It will cause the world to march down the wide path to destruction. And this is the same generation that squelches uncomfortable truth, calling it "hate speech." We are on a collision path with destiny. If the SDA church does not cry out, the rocks will.
The world has been thumbing its nose at God and natural law too long and we are on borrowed time. It's time to put worldly things and evil political correctness aside and focus on getting ready for Jesus to come. It is time to send ALL of our literature out like the leaves of autumn, the Great Controversy included. You libs who are uncomfortable better start getting used to discomfort, because it's coming, ready or not.
Faithful Disciple
George...."creating millions of enemies"....I don't see it that way, but your way of seeing it does, i admit, omens of exciting times ahead. Personally, I think that most of the printed pages will hit the landfills before it hits the eyes of the recipients. Loading up the train is only a slight detour to the landfill.
I see this more of a gesture to God.."okay God, we gave it our best shot, now the ball is in your court."
@Thomson - Sat, 08/27/2011—“Her main role, as seen in Testimonies Volumes 1 to 9, and other books, was to provide personal correction to individuals.”
It is the content of some of EGW’s advice that concerns many:
For instance, take her inspired counsel to a woman whose husband was “an overbearing, tyrannical man, fired up by Satan whenever his satanic majesty can work effectually through him to intimidate this trembling, shrinking soul. She [the wife] has so many times been thrown into agitation that her nervous system is shattered, and she is merely a wreck…Her marriage was a deception of the devil. Yet now she should make the best of it, treat her husband with tenderness, and make him as happy as she can without violating her conscience; for if he remains in his rebellion, this world is all the heaven he will have.” Testimonies Vol 2
Faithful....I seeing nothing appealing or attractive about your 'ready or not' God, and i doubt if I am alone, even all of those lounging on couches gorging on potato chips and cheap soda.
Good afternoon,
Is Spectrum's people the same with God's people? Why?
Joe,
I think hat your suggestion of removing the book from the inventory, and "woooof" .....problem resolved... is a GREAT idea. Still better, remove all books. Or just keep them as collateral inspirational readings. But STOP ADDING THEM TO THE BIBLE.
66 Books are enough, we don't need 122!!!
I really envision a SDA Church that is based on SOLA SCRIPTURA "de facto" - not only in words. Tired of hearing that we are Sola Scriptura based when WE ARE NOT!!! This is just hypocrisy.
Are there ANY SDA doctrines or beliefs that cannot be taugh using the Bible ONLY?
1) If there are not, then we are OK, we can easily become a Sola Scriptura church with no problem.
2) If there are..., than we are OK as well, we can easily purge the non-biblical beliefs and become a Sola Scriptura church with no problem.
What is, then, the actual problem? Pride? Elitism? Denominationalism? Arrogance? Business profit (from selling books)? Too big to fail? Difficult to change after so many years misguidind people about the truth? Sentiments of superiority? What is it????
YES WE CAN become a Sola Scriptura Church.
Well..., can we really????
Faye, I get your point.
You said also, "I see this more of a gesture to God.."okay God, we gave it our best shot, now the ball is in your court."
Well, why trying such a "gesture to God" with a book like GC? God gave us the Bible as a sufficient source of information on salvation.
Which book would God choose to spread 50 million of them? The GC, or the Bible?
Could triggering other churches' anger and enmity be a calculated target of this GC's administration??? .....Something like, "Let's accelerate the coming of the end!"
If so, well, thanks but no thanks... I am not in such a hurry!!! I think God knows what he is doing. But may be Teddy I knows best...
@Frank Allen - Sat, 08/27/2011 - 09:00 - It is the content of some of EGW’s advice that concerns many:
For instance, take her inspired counsel to a woman whose husband was “an overbearing, tyrannical man, fired up by Satan whenever his satanic majesty can work effectually through him to intimidate this trembling, shrinking soul. She [the wife] has so many times been thrown into agitation that her nervous system is shattered, and she is merely a wreck…Her marriage was a deception of the devil. Yet now she should make the best of it, treat her husband with tenderness, and make him as happy as she can without violating her conscience; for if he remains in his rebellion, this world is all the heaven he will have.” Testimonies Vol 2
Frank, I don't claim to understand everything that EGW wrote. I haven't investigated every context in which she made statements. Were they "I was shown" statements? Or merely commentary?
Re your example above, though, I do believe the counsel given was meant to include the conditions of the times in which the person lived. For instance, today women would be free to leave such abusive relationships, but 150 years ago? Here's a quote from one historian: ""Women of the mid-19th century had no such choices. Most lived in a state little better than slavery. They had to obey men, because in most cases men held all the resources and women had no independent means of subsistence." http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/history/19/overview.htm
Some of EGW's advice took into consideration the times in which she lived, I think.
Fay, it is unfortunate that you have a Harry Anderson picture of God sitting in the meadow with the lion and the lamb, and all of the little children. That is a partial picture. The Bible also speaks of disobedience, judgement, death, destruction, and an end of this world. The signs of the times in the world and in the church declare where we are. Your sarcasm does not excuse you from what is coming. It's time to get ready.
Faithful Disciple
"Some of EGW's advice took into consideration the times in which she lived."
But she certainly did not always agree with James nor submit to him. Her advice was to others.
Elaine
I was handed a copy of the vitriolic and bigoted tome when the Pope came to Washington DC a few years ago. I experienced the same at the Toronto WYD. Adventists were out in force with all the other assorted anti-Catholics. They carried signs proclaiming the Pope as the anti-Christ and gave out plenty of copies of the Great Controversy. We could feel the hate I assure you. The fact that the SDA church will continue to give out mass quantities of this book simply shows that they have not renounced their official anti-Catholic bigotry. That is such a pity as there are some fine Adventists who have eschewed this sordid past and sought reconciliation. I hope this effort fails and brings home the fact that the polemical times are over. Btw, I am not a Jesuit.
Faithful disciple: " We live in a society with its "victims" of obesity. The genes are at fault, it's not that people eat too much food and drown in soda (and sit in front of the TV and video game). "
So then why is the First Lady making such a noble effort to get people to eat more healthfully and to get their move on, only to the unending criticism of vacuous GOP pundits like Sarah Palin and that airhead Ann Coulter?
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
Pyalie, Michelle can't even convince herself and her own husband who lead by example and are seen eating big artery-clogging burgers for all of the country to see. She is making an effort. I'm not sure it's so noble, and it does not seem to be convincing anyone. But what should I expect from politicians who love to make rules and laws that apply to others, but not themselves.
Faithful Disciple
In a comment Pastor Dean Waterman wrote:
"Ellen White is the most amazing gift God has given the world in these last days."
A pastor says things like this? One can often tell person's defensiveness and the weakness of an idea in religion is by how superlative the language is.
What about Love? Family? Friends? Air? Martin Luther King? Modern medicine? Jesus?
Despite Adventists giving away Ellen White's books for 100 years, Rick Warren's recent The Purpose Driven Life has had a larger impact in Christianity than Ellen White's writings. And I'm not even antagonistic toward her.
This project should be troubling to those who care about wise stewardship. Warren's book SOLD tens of millions of copies (among many Christian books to sell well). On the other hand, Ted Wilson, the visionary for a multi-billion dollar organization, thinks that people will read something that's given to them. As anyone who has been a literature evangelist, or walked down a city street knows: a give away is a throw away. Of course some will read, and we'll hear a few testimonies via church media, but how will that be as a return on investing millions of dollars into printing 127 million copies (the current number according to Wilson at ASI)?
Faithful Disciple,
It's beyond me how no matter what she does, what she wears, what she says the First Lady gets zero respect from the likes of you. Would you rather she sat on her duff and stared at her computer screen? She's not 300 lbs, is active, practices moderation and so can damn well eat a burger if she wants to while still promoting healthy lifestyle. Goodness! Her husband even gave up smoking in support of her efforts.
But, when small minded people who can't get past political differences with her husband and refuse to see the value in her efforts, in their pettiness they criticize instead. I don't agree with everything her husband does, and I for sure didn't agree with just about everything GWB did as president, but both First Ladies were and are upstanding citizens who made and continue to make a huge difference through their efforts.
In short: Get over yourself!
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
Yes it is I.
Even though we on this blog may see the issues differently the chance to communicate our thoughts is important. Some times we can put our thoughts to the public much better than trying to get up and speak in public.
God Bless you all!
Pyalie, boy you sure read a lot into stuff. I said nothing about politics. All of our political parties leave much to be desired. I am a conservative.
Faithful Disciple
"I said nothing about politics...I am a conservative."
You didn't have you. It was already abundantly clear.
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
How about sharing a book of the Bible, like John and its portrayal of the love of God?
Or how about something about hope. We are the people of hope, the Church of Hope with the HOPE channel?
Or something to improve people's lives--maybe a copy of Vibrant Life magazine?
Or a CD of inspirational music? Jennifer LeMountain or Take Six?
Or an invitation to a free delicious dinner, or to a place where you are not condemned but loved and assisted with your needs?
Maybe a little booklet on Christ's love? Or a local address for people to find help for any of their needs?
A loaf of bread has more religion in it than.....
To all participants in the present discussion:
Irrespective of the stance one may take regarding the various theological cross-currents in contemporary Adventism, I am truly appalled that devotees of a magazine like Spectrum would look with the slightest favor on civil laws curtailing any form of speech. Wise voices from the political left in America have long found justifiable fault with the kind of "hate speech" laws that exist in countries like Canada. Regardless of how offensive the thinking of such persons as Ann Coulter and Mark Steyn may be (depending on one's point of view), genuine freedom requires that all have their say. I am truly baffled why folks on this site, who thrive on pushing the envelope of outrage on a variety of fronts, would think any differently.
Years ago, an author in The New Republic magazine wrote on article titled "Thought Crimes," in which he addressed this subject. (I forget the author's name and the date of the article, but I remember it well.) The author, being both Jewish and gay, said he fully expected certain folks to hate him, and he fully expected to hate them back. But he said that under no circumstances should police and judges be in the business of inspecting people's opinions. In a truly free country, he wrote, bigots have their say like everyone else.
As to the claim that The Great Controversy contains "hate speech," I see such a claim as no more credible than for someone to claim an authentic account of the Holocaust is "anti-German" (and I have heard such claims, by the way), or the claim that an authentic historical account of the slaughter of native Americans or the mistreatment of African-Americans is somehow unpatriotic for a citizen of the United States. The problem we have today is that few understand the distinction between loving people and hating certain of their ideas or practices. In reality, I think we all understand this difference, if only selectively. All of us, I am sure, would agree that a racist deserves Christian love, even if his or her ideas deserve the deepest contempt from one professing the name of the Lord.
Regarding the alleged historical errors of The Great Controversy, I urge all in this conversation to read my critique of Graeme Bradford's books where he recites all these various allegations. You can find my critique by going to greatcontroversy dot org and looking for "The Loss of Transcendence." Then click on the section "Ellen White and Eschatology." In the seciont titled "Other Maters" in this same list of articles, I have spent considerable time demonstrating the fallacies of a Spectrum article written many years ago by one William Peterson, which claimed Ellen White's account of the French Revolution was historically flawed.
I would also urge those on this blog to carefully investigate the facts before believing the account offered here of Ellen White's original chapter on "Huss and Jerome" in The Great Controversy. I for one would like to see an assessment of this from another source. At the bottom line, it is the finished product that ultimately counts, and the process by which inspired writers develop this product may vary. (Let's remember how Nathan the prophet gave King David counsel at one point which God had to correct that very evening; see II Sam. 7:3-17.)
I am not in the least worried about a more in-depth discussion of the issues surrounding Ellen White's inspiration and authority, together with all the charges made by her critics. I believe that once the light of scrutiny is placed upon these charges, they will be seen as either fabricated or irrelevant, being in large measure the product of experience-driven theology and the age-old resistance of even professed believers to the radically intrusive, life-reordering counsel of God's messengers.
Finally, I must say I am sad to hear David Read advise against the current Great Controversy project. I can handle disagreements with him regarding secular politics, but it seems that perhaps his political views have caused him at present to see a greater threat to Christendom in the current scene from gays, lesbians, and Muslims than from right-wing Christians seeking to illegitimately legislate personal morality. In truth, the message of The Great Controversy is pointedly relevant to the contemporary political scene in America, one in which a professedly Bible-believing presidential candidate leaves her congregation because of its adherence to Biblical teachings regarding the papal Antichrist, and where both she and at least one other candidate for the same office are known to hold theocratic views of the American government. Recent media reports have placed the spotlight on these views and their background as held by these particular individuals That sounds an awful lot like The Great Controversy--not to mention Revelation 13--to me.
God bless!
Pastor Kevin Paulson
Pastor Kevin Paulson,
Are all of EGW's writings inspired and if so, do you personally follow them all? Is being chubby a sin?
Dear "PastorAnonymous" (whoever you are):
Most assuredly I believe all of Ellen White's writings were both inspired and authoritative for the church. (This excludes, of course, those she specifically designated as common letters which did not involve spiritual counsel for God's people.) And yes, by the grace of God, I endeavor to obey that counsel. I still have a long way to go, but God isn't finished with me yet.
And frankly, I believe anyone who holds denominational credentials and lives from the holy tithe should have the courage to sign his or her name to any statement made in public.
God bless!
Pastor Kevin Paulson
One more point. The claim was made early in this thread that Ellen White's statements about Catholicism in The Great Controversy were reflective of the anti-immigrant hysteria in America at that time. Such a claim is utterly groundless, fanciful, and absurd. Not a word in Ellen White's writings, anywhere, can be found admonishing Adventists or anyone else against the alleged peril of immigrants of any kind coming to the United States. Indeed, the fact that such talk is utterly absent from Ellen White's statements about the papacy, its teachings, and its future aims is evidence of inspired discrimination between legitimate warnings and those of a purely prejudicial nature.
God bless!
Pastor Kevin Paulson
Kevin
It is beyond any rational challenge that Ellen White used without attribution the work of other authors.
If she said: "I was shown" It was assumed shown by God. If on the other hand she was shown by God where to find an authoritative source, she should have said so. However, she repreated claimed until her death she did not depend upon or use the published work of others. Now that is bearing false witness--certainly unrepented of to her readers.
Please don't come back with the retort that Jesus quoted Scripture without direct and explicit attribution or that the Book of Revelation is jam packed with Old Testament sources.
The most chilling aspect of your blog is your final "God bless!" To seven paragraphs of put down.
It is typical of the "cloth" mentality and duplicity of the "Church". Far better if you had closed with: "May God have mercy on your soul!" That would be honest with your argument.
Tom Z.
It should also be noted that the pamphlet featured at the top of this article, alleging that Catholics were "crucifying Nixon," was not written or published by Seventh-day Adventists, but by the Shepherd's Rod. I remember well this pamphlet from my teenage years. It was circulated during the Watergate scandal, and was being passed out under Adventist windshield wipers at camp meeting and other gatherings. It has no relationship to any distribution of The Great Controversy by any officials or members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
I am assuming a copy of this pamphlet still exists, or it would not have been available for use in this article. I urge anyone with access to the pamphlet to check out its origin.
God bless!
Pastor Kevin Paulson
". . . perhaps his political views have caused him at present to see a greater threat to Christendom in the current scene from gays, lesbians, and Muslims than from right-wing Christians seeking to illegitimately legislate personal morality."
Well, Kevin, I calls 'em like I sees 'em, and that's how I see things right now.
I'm not expressing any doubt in the ultimate vindication of the traditional Adventist eschatology, but it is not happening right now. Sunday vs. Saturday is a non-issue in the world; no one cares. There's far less friction between Protestants and Catholics today than there was in Ellen White's day, thanks in part to the reforms of Vatican II. By contrast, the friction between Islam and the rest of the world is now very real and very bloody. (And even where there isn't fighting, Muslims like Mullah Krekar are quite open in noting that a Muslim demographic conquest of Europe is almost fait accompli.)
And it isn't "illegitimate" to legislate personal morality, if that what's you mean by defining marriage as being between one man and one woman. The family is the foundation of society, order and civilization, and its preservation is very much a legitimate concern of the government.
Dear Tom Z:
I am not denying that Ellen White used sources without credit. Ellen White candidly acknowledged this in her introduction to The Great Controversy (p. xii). The notion that she denied this is based on out-of-context statements like her statement in one setting that "the words are my own" when she was speaking of the length of women's dresses. No one has yet produced evidence that her statements on this subject borrowed anything from other sources.
The use of Old Testament references by Jesus and the apostles, often without credit, is but the beginning of the problems faced by Ellen White critics with regard to the use of uninspired sources by Biblical writers. What about the apostle Paul's uncredited use of the apocryphal book The Wisdom of Solomon, in such chapters as Romans 1 and Ephesians 6. (New Testament scholar Bruce Metzger, in his Introduction to the Apocrypha, has documented this carefully, as I have in my critique of Grame Bradford's book Prophets Are Human on greatcontroversy dot org). Jesus also quoted Rabbi Hillel without credit in citing what we call the Golden Rule. Many other examples could be cited.
If you are prepared to condemn Ellen White for the uncredited use of uninspired sources, you had best be fair and do the same to any number of Bible writers.
What is more of a "put down," my friend? You and all the others on this site constantly bashing Ellen White, her authority, and her character? Or the few of us who dare to offer contrary evidence, whether from Scripture, Ellen White's own writings, or simple reason? Harry Truman once said, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." If you can't handle vigorous challenge to your outrageous attacks on one I and many others hold to be God's prophet, you had best find something else to do.
God bless!
Pastor Kevin Paulson
It is oxymoronic that the political party that wants and preaches "less government" is the same one that wants government in the bedroom and the doctor's office! That's a real paradox!
Elaine
Rev. Paulson, in no way do I support hate speech laws and there use to deny people their first amendment rights. Print it if you will just as they still print Mein Kampf. That being said Ellen White faithfully reflected the anti-Catholic bigotry and polemic of her times. The Great Controversy is full of hate and error. It feeds the insane anti-Catholicism that still lurks in the American psyche. The Pope is not the anti-Christ, but your worship of White is surely idolatry. Your beliefs are not biblical and I would wager that you wouldn't mind a theocracy so long as you were the theocrat.
Dear David R:
The fact that there is less friction now between Catholics and Protestants is a dramatic fulfillment of Ellen White's predictions in The Great Controversy. When that book was written, political campaigns were still being won with the slogan, "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion." Protestant-Catholic antipathy was the order of the day when Ellen White predicted they would one day work together for common political goals. That is now happening. And that sounds to me like inspiration!
Saturday and Sunday may not be a burning political issue right now, but you might want to go read David Barton's book The Myth of Separation, in which he not only attacks the separation of church and state but defends Sunday laws in American history as evidence of our country's "godly" heritage. This book was publihsed in 1992, and Barton would serve in 1996 as a member of the Republican Party plattform committee. Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed have also written favorably in major books of theirs regarding Sunday laws, and the late Pope John Paul II issued an encyclical in 1998 in defense of them.
So the issue is not far from the minds of many on the Religious Right in America, and all it would take would be a major crisis to bring such an issue to the fore. In the meantime, it is the PRINCIPLE of legislating personal morality and thus forcing the conscience that is being established as legitimate by the Religious Right in today's America. And in fact, Ellen White predicted this in The Great Controversy:
"Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state, that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured" (GC 581).
For this reason, and countless others, I strongly support the current General Conference initiative for the widespread distribution of this most timely of Ellen White's books.
God bless!
Pastor Kevin Paulson
"Ellen White is the most amazing gift God has given the world in these last days."
A pastor says things like this? One can often tell person's defensiveness and the weakness of an idea in religion is by how superlative the language is.
What about Love? Family? Friends? Air? Martin Luther King? Modern medicine? Jesus? Alex Carpenter
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Certainly EGW was a most amazing gift. I know no one who has ever even implied that an alleged womanizer, MLK, was a gift from God. It shows to what an unhealthy extent political correctness has made its inroads into the extreme left.
The majority of all books ever printed have been discarded. That should be a reminder that by far the majority of books are little read and have minute influence, including the one being discussed here.
How many of the world's billions have ever heard of the Great Controversy? How many have read it?
In the big scheme of things it is most insignificant even to the majority of Adventists who also never read it, let alone the entire world. A tempest in a teapot that if Ted's plans are carried out will engender much more hatred toward the church that eagerness to hear more. Who wants to hear more hatred from anyone?
Elaine
Why not limit the flow of books "by" EGW to Great Controversy?
Were it better to disband all the SDA clergy and use the money spared that way to distributing all EGW books en masse to every American home?
If giving one book is a good idea, giving a whole library must be a better idea.
Books like Messages to Young People (or how you call it nowadays?) would surely be great hits among secularized persons. At least it made a deep and lasting impression to my tender mind while I was in my teens.
So, start printing different several books and distribute them like autumnal leaves.
And the Clear Word Bible would be a real clincher, too.
Pauli Heikkinen
Kevin Paulson wrote:
"One more point. The claim was made early in this thread that Ellen White's statements about Catholicism in The Great Controversy were reflective of the anti-immigrant hysteria in America at that time. Such a claim is utterly groundless, fanciful, and absurd. Not a word in Ellen White's writings, anywhere, can be found admonishing Adventists or anyone else against the alleged peril of immigrants of any kind coming to the United States. Indeed, the fact that such talk is utterly absent from Ellen White's statements about the papacy, its teachings, and its future aims is evidence of inspired discrimination between legitimate warnings and those of a purely prejudicial nature.
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Hi Kevin. Much of this thread is a rehash of arguments I remember spending many early-morning hours with you on in Newton lobby so many years ago. I doubt we are any more likely to change each other’s minds now. I will take a stab though at the anti-immigrant issue.
What I wrote above was that much of the anti-Catholic tone of GC is "rooted in anti-immigrant bias and hysteria of the 19th century". I stand by that claim, and would be interested in any actual evidence you have to dispute it, other than simply asserting the contrary.
Notice that I am not claiming that White explicitly attacks immigrants in her writings; I am claiming that she repeats anti-Catholic rhetoric and propaganda that was common in 19th century America, and that this anti-Catholic vitriol was based to a large extent on fear of immigrants, especially those from eastern and southern Europe, and a general fear of difference and diversity increasingly found in the big cities. Catholics represented an accessible manifestation of otherness for many rural protestants, who projected on to them their dark fears and hatreds and animosities. As you imply, White's version of this anti-Catholic prejudice was significantly less ugly than its presentation in other voices of the time, but that does not change the fact that her anti-Catholic rhetoric is in fact rooted in anti-immigrant bias and hysteria of the 19th century. We have seen in this thread that for some, the natural transposition of the anti-Catholic prejudice in the original drafts of the GC would be to change the target of the prejudice to Islam - which I think speaks volumes about the centrality of finding a demonized other to define oneself against to the message of the GC.
While I'm on the line, I will also note that my opposition to the GC distribution plan is not based on a fear of offending overly sensitive minority groups (indeed, I often take pleasure in offending people, majority or minority). I share Kevin's distaste for anti-hate speech laws. Of course, this does not mean that I have a taste for hate speech. I think it should be legal to distribute the GC, and I would be willing to fight for Ted Wilson's right to waste millions of dollars to do so. I just think it is both an ineffective way to spread the good news, and morally wrong to propagate hate speech (even though legal).
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Aubyn Fulton, Professor of Psychology
Pacific Union College
"We are all more simply human than otherwise"
Well played, David @ Sat, 08/27/2011 - 01:46
Maybe the question is along the lines of "where would one look to find out who is doing what to whom?".
For me, it's Samuel Huntington, Niall Ferguson, Chris Hitchens. But, then, it's about media and communications, too. A quick search on Krekar shows he has been accused of being involved with the death of Aussie cameraman, Paul Moran, in Iraq.
Kevin
If one were to distill your comments they would be reduced to:
"Go to hell! Have a nice trip!"
As I told the story before: You remember me of the evangelist who made a home visit to my Uncle and Aunt just prior to the last meeting of a two week effort--which they attended every evening at the request of my dad. As he closed his private call he said: " Now you have heard the entire Truth, you can accept and go to heaven or reject and go to hell." My Uncle bless his heart replied: "I imagine you plan on going to heaven. The evangelist replied certainly. My Uncle said: "In that case, I prefer to go to hell!" I was 15 at the time. I was never so proud of my uncle. Yet I stayed with Adventism into my 50's. The honey dripping vindictiveness of post Glacier View was the tipping point for me.
Now the honey dripping sarcasm of ordained apologists need to be called up short. Tom Z
It's amazed me that some SDA churches in N.America becomes more and more having Ecumenical mentality while at the same time start rejecting the The Final Warning through the Advent Movement just before the second coming of our Lord. Adventist Camp meetiings, Women's ministries, Pathfinders, SDA schools/universities are now flooded with Non-Adventists speakers. They don't promote themselves but we as a church keep inviting them by proclaiming, "We as SDA should not be selfish and never think that Jesus don't love nor save them". Sounds good, eh? Well, nothing wrong with those kindda typical statements. However by ignoring the consequences that the senses of rational beings will finally become so confused...so then we cannot be trusted to make right decisions. Unfotunately this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit.
Sure we have to love everybody. But The Holy Spirit never reveals Himself in such methods, to invite good and nice speakers but hate the Truth...but anyway we allow them to speak in our churches while at the same time we're also attacking our fellow Adventists who love to share God's last warnings inside "The Great Controversy"!
Those non SDA speakers of course such a nice, loving and more friendly than Adventists for sure. Yet this is an invention of Satan (by using not criminals but nice people) to COVER UP his ingenious methods for making of none effect the pure, elevating, ennobling and sanctifying truth for this time.
Btw, our church leaders only say: Don't judge; Stop criticizing!
I wish more of our church leaders as well as Spectrum also redirect the same message to those who hate the important project of the distribution of "The Great Controversy": Don't judge; Stop criticising!
There is a great deal of difference in fighting for someone's right to distribute literature; but when it is using the church's money--members' tithe money, do they have a choice of how, when, and where it is spent? Or, like the government is it simply like taxes and the administration makes such decisions?
Well, not exactly, Congress is the holder of the purse, while the SDA leadership holds the purse and makes all decisions with little or no input from its members. Was there a vote taken on disbursement of the GC?
Elaine
When that book was written, political campaigns were still being won with the slogan, "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion."
No, Kevin, elections were being lost with that slogan.
That slogan was uttered in the presidential campaign of 1884 by Dr. Samuel D. Burchard, addressing a gathering of the Religious Bureau of the Republican National Committee, a week before the general election. Dr. Burchard was:
"a lifelong enemy of the saloons, a steadfast Union man who had assembled a regiment of volunteers in the church basement, but [he was] not noticeably anti-Catholic. Perhaps his own explanation later is the best, that like many preachers he could hardly resist a good alliteration, 'a mere rhetorical flourish' improvised on the spur of the moment."
Burchard's rhetorical flourish was widely acknowledged as a serious gaffe, an embarrassment, and the Republican candidate, James G. Blaine, lost the election to the Democrat, Grover Cleveland (even though the latter was accused of fathering an illegitimate child). In fact, the Wikipedia page about Blaine says that he blamed Burchard's extemporaneous alliteration for his loss of the election:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._Blaine.
Next time, do a teensy bit of research before you do like Dr. Burchard, and throw something in just for a rhetorical flourish.
"As you imply, White's version of this anti-Catholic prejudice was significantly less ugly than its presentation in other voices of the time, but that does not change the fact that her anti-Catholic rhetoric is in fact rooted in anti-immigrant bias and hysteria of the 19th century." Fulton
A. Fulton-
Pastor Paulson's claim that EGW'S writings were not rooted in anti-Catholic rhetoric of the time is just as credible as your statement to the contrary. Please show us the incontrovertible evidence to support your allegation.
In fact to those of us who accept her writings as being inspired Pastor Paulson has more proof on his side.
To compare EGW's unacknowledged borrowing from other sources with Paul's use of the Wisdom of Solomon or Jesus' adaptation of Hillel in order to justify what she did is little short of absurd to me.
Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the NT writers lived in a time and culture that was far different from EGW's 19th c. America. They borrowed from not only from oral traditions, but also shared a common Hebrew corpus of writings, both sacred canonical and what could be termed apocryphal, that was community property, so to speak. This type of quotation was thus the common practice of the day, and thus carried no ethical considerations.
EGW's situation was vastly different. While there may have been a common pool of ideas and publicly stated beliefs among early Adventist writers of which she was part and from which she borrowed in her writings, one cannot extend the same parameters to her relationship to health writers, devotional writers from other denominational affiliations, and historians of her day. This is all the more problematic when one considers that she was writing for publication and profit, and borrowing without credit from those who had done the same. This consideration was never even a blip on the ethical radar screen for Jesus and the NT writers.
While there were not the developed copyright laws that came into being in the following century, such practice was still considered to be unethical by the standards of her day. As has been well documented, such practice in her book, "Sketches of the Life of Paul," even brought the church to the brink of legal difficulty.
This ended up being Veltmann's greatest concern in his source study of the Desire of Ages. It wasn't that 31% of the material was borrowed and reshaped by her, and what now seems to be by her editors, for her own homiletical purposes. It was that it was borrowed without any crediting of sources. This is what created the ethical quandaries that he spoke of in the summation of his project.
To use the introduction of the Great Controversy as a blanket admission of her borrowing is also ludicrous. That statement was clearly intended to apply to just that volume. It does nothing to address her dependence on other sources that existed for decades, but was never publicly admitted, and is now downplayed by those so eager to keep up the official hagiographical portrait of her before the church.
I don't view EGW as someone who had nefarious designs or a sinister agenda. She was a human being who had very limited skills, and who by herself could not possibly keep up with the writing demands under which she labored. She also bore the mantle of authority of prophet within Adventism, and probably feared that an admission of source dependence would have been devastating to the many who viewed everything she wrote as a direct pronouncement from God.
We now live a century after her death. Should we not grow up out of this fear?
Thanks...
Frank
To model the intolerance of hate speech in Canada is something any developed country should strive toward. The cases you mention were indeed hate speech.
Let me get this straight, Pyalie: If Mark Steyn accurately quotes something an Imam in Norway said to an Oslo newspaper, on the record, for public consumption, then Mark Steyn is guilty of hate speech???
Has any pope ever suppressed freedom of speech with such fatuous unreason? At any rate, you have to go back a long, long way to find a pope as frightening as Pyalie.
In the era of Amazon Kindle and iBook, only our church would commit to spending hundred of thousands of dollars (millions?) to print a book to send to Americans to read. So don't worry about anyone getting inflamed by it as almost no one will read it. What we should be angry about is that money that could pay pastor's salaries, mission work, care for the poor and the sick is being wasted on an effort like this.
David Read: "Let me get this straight, Pyalie: If Mark Steyn accurately quotes something an Imam in Norway said to an Oslo newspaper, on the record, for public consumption, then Mark Steyn is guilty of hate speech???"
Yes. Absolutely. Context can entirely change the intent and tone of an article, an action, a word. It did in this case as Steyn's intent was to malign the Imam and the entirety of Islam. What the fool didn't realize was that the arrogant writing of the Imam was enough for any interested individual to roll their eyes at and dismiss. The Imam's brilliant and successful intent was to incite a hateful response, and Steyn vapidly played into the sceme. Being that he could not be prosecuted for stupidity, he was at least prosecuted for hate speech.
This has NOTHING to do with free speech. Hateful speech is not an option in Canada. For some reason, here in America it's celebrated as an option under the guise of free speech.
Case in point: http://godhatesfags.com/
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1 Corinthians 13:13
The greatest evangelistic effort would be for church members to be loving, kind, caring, forgiving, patient ... - not just with friends and people like them. But to everyone - especially the one's they don't like, disagree with, and who don't act think or feel the way they do.
Jesus said being kind to people you like is no big deal because even evil people do that. The true test is the transformation that has taken place inside that brings authentic, no-strings attached kind, respectful, patient, forgiving ... approaches to those we hate, dislike, disagree with, or don't relate to.
We have a long way to go. When friends of mine see how nice we can be to non-Adventists to woo them but then see how many treat members who don't conform, they have said they'd rather stay outsiders and get the warm treatment. Others see it is morally bankrupt and want nothing to do with a church that often demands conformity and too often manifests harsh ill-treatment in words, attitudes and actions or even forms of shunning to those who don't conform, or to those in society who have different values, beliefs and lifestyles.
I find hardcore adherence to historic Adventism often far from the spirit of Jesus and often very unpleasant, if not hurtful or harmful - unless you adhere or agree to it. Very anti-Christ!
Just a couple of comments:
When my forefathers and mothers immigrated to the USA from Ireland in the mid-1800's, they were greeted with banners. Not cheerful banners, but signs at businesses and employers saying "NO IRISH"; not because Irish-ness was so subversive, but the Catholicism they brought was thought to be (Look how long it took to have a Catholic President. I remember the End-Time scenarios batted around during THAT election!). The Irish landed on the east coast, concidentally the birthplace of the Adventist movement. Not a pretty chapter in our SDA story, but we might could actually own up to it and throw out the old materials and move on.
I live in a small rural area, and a couple years ago some sincere out-of-town believers chose our little zip code to blanket with the GC. We were not notified in advance and the backlash was enormous. Fellow preachers in the town ministerial association (my friends) required a lot of explanations. Co-workers and employees who only read a few pages asked "is your church really this nuts?" The senders of these books have no idea of the hurt and broken relationships their little experiment in zeal caused. It's like dropping bombs on cities from thousands of feet in the air - the damage is impersonalized for the bomber, leaving the carnage for the rest of us to deal with. In rural places where everyone knows everyone and memories are long, this can take years. Please don't do this to us again, or let us know in advance so we can set up a recycling bin...
I'd rather be known to belong to a group that manifests what Martina has just mentioned than one that dumps cheap quality anti-catholic, conspiracy theory leaning books on an unsuspecting public who hasn't asked for it, doesn't appear to seek or want it, and who has largely no interest in it. In a society with many seeking to be environmentally responsible, this dumping of unwanted hundred million books on unsuspecting people is immoral and will be seen to be immoral.
Send 127 million spam emails out and you will be sued in any western country if they can catch you. This is spam of a different sort. Don't fall for the fallacy that people will only give them to people who ask for them or really want them. I've taken books from well-meaning people that I haven't wanted and that have gone to the second hand bookshop or even in the trash. It's easy that risking causing offence.
From a marketing perspective, enlightened people are now talking about the ineffectiveness of pushing products onto people when they don't want them. Even pushing advertising onto people annoys many and creates distaste and alienation. Permission marketing is taking on where people are honoured, where people choose advertising they want to see. (Realise this GC stunt is basically a marketing and advertising stunt for the Adventist church. We don't want people just to read the book. It's a hook for a different product.) People are more likely to read an ad or read the book if they have asked for it and taken some action to get it. Putting it into their hands without them seeking it first is most likely to result in it just being put in the bookcase or into the bin.
From ethical, environmental, psychological and marketing (and other) perspectives this whole project is flawed.
On the other hand, it is well known in marketing that sometimes an ad that really annoys people and gets on their nerves is effective in getting people to take notice of the product and has the effect of raising the product profile, and sometimes increasing sales. But its a gamble, and highly unethical when used for spiritual purposes. Perhaps this is what Ted and the gang want.
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I'm sure it will be said that the idea of the GC giveaway is not to just dump them on people but to give them to friends, families, colleagues who are interested. But the start of the project sets the tone totally differently. Soon after Ted scored the presidency the GC spammed all the postboxes and letterboxes without many kilometres radius of the General Conference headquarters. Did anyone take notice of the "No Junk Mail" signs or requests? Was everyone in those areas interested in getting the book?
This is another feel good, pat ourselves on the back, simplistic ploy. Scam and spam! Milk the flock of their $$$$, give them a feel good and dump it mostly on those who don't really want it. There should be a law against it but it's a free world.
Gold medal for the Stupid Awards!
Pyalie does not know what he is talking about, in fact Mark Steyn was cleared by the human rights commission back in 2008:
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Great news for free speech fans that likely won't get reported much of anywhere outside the rightosphere: the national Canadian "Human Rights" Commission has declined to prosecute a "hate speech" allegation against columnist and author Mark Steyn and the magazine Maclean's.
The allegation, brought against Steyn as part of an effort by the Canadian Islamic Congress (that country's resident apologists for radical Islam comparable to CAIR here) to use the government to censor critics of Islam. It was the second of three motions before three separate bodies to be dismissed; Steyn still awaits the decision of the British Columbia provincial commission.
The national commission did not announce the dismissal publicly so here's the Maclean's reaction:
Maclean's magazine is pleased that the Canadian Human Rights Commission has dismissed the complaint brought against it by the Canadian Islamic Congress. The decision is in keeping with our long-standing position that the article in question, "The Future Belongs to Islam," an excerpt from Mark Steyn's best-selling book America Alone, was a worthy piece of commentary on important geopolitical issues, entirely within the bounds of normal journalistic practice.
Though gratified by the decision, Maclean's continues to assert that no human rights commission, whether at the federal or provincial level, has the mandate or the expertise to monitor, inquire into, or assess the editorial decisions of the nation's media. And we continue to have grave concerns about a system of complaint and adjudication that allows a media outlet to be pursued in multiple jurisdictions on the same complaint, brought by the same complainants, subjecting it to costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars, to say nothing of the inconvenience. We enthusiastically support those parliamentarians who are calling for legislative review of the commissions with regard to speech issues.
Read more: http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-sheffield/2008/06/28/mark-steyn...
Adventist Media and Conversation Blog
To all participants in the present discussion:
My old college pal Aubyn Fulton has still failed to document his accusation that Ellen White's statements on Catholicism were "rooted" in anti-immigrant bias. If in fact this is true, we should be able to find at least some evidence of this in her writings, or perhaps those of her Adventist contemporaries. The fact is, no such evidence has been cited in this conversation. This is the problem when one clings desperately to the illusion that all religious beliefs are the product of their environment--the essence of the higher-critical mindset. If one is to assume any human source for Ellen White's convictions in this regard, a far likelier possibility is the stance of historic Protestantism regarding the papacy, rather than the immigrant issue regarding which neither she nor her Adventist colleagues had anything to say--at least that I know of.
Regarding the allegation that source utilization by Biblical writers and Jesus was somehow "vastly different" from that in which Ellen White engaged, again this is a claim without factual support. I can understand why the persistent Ellen White critic is so tenacious here, since the fact that Biblical writers used uninspired sources without credit is a devastating blow to the case against Ellen White on these grounds. The bottom line is that an uninspired source is an uninspired source, irrespective of what that source might be. Whether in the sense of oral or commonly held traditions, or other authors to whom one had access, it represents evidence that inspired writers do not always get their language direct from God, without intermediate help.
And by the way, the Ephesian church to whom Paul quoted without credit certain passages from the Jewish apocryphal book The Wisdom of Solomon, contained many Gentile believers who would not have known commonly held Jewish traditions or writings. These works would have been as foreign to these Gentile believers as non-Adventist authors might have been to Ellen White's readers. And to be fair on this point, it has been documented by such as Robert Olson (in his book One Hundred and One Questions, available from the White Estate) that Ellen White and other church officials advertised in our papers a number of the books she is alleged to have borrowed from. That is hard to reconcile with an accusation of deceit and cover-up. Conybeare and Howson's book The Life and Epistles of Saint Paul was one of these books that was thus adveretised, according to the evidence from our publications at the time.
What is more, prior to the advent of modern copyright laws, it was commonplace for devotional writers such as Ellen White, as well as those from who she borrowed, to use without credit various sources at their command. The claim that is was considered "unethical" is dubious at best. Moreover, when one considers what a small portion of Ellen White's overall writings has even been alleged to have been borrowed, one wonders why certain ones make such a giant issue out of this. Even in Rea's book The White Lie, nearly all the borrowing that is alleged is in such standard Ellen White works as the Conflict Series and similar books, such as Christ's Object Lessons. Very little such borrowing is alleged in the Testimonies, and almost none in the vast collection of her writings as found in the periodical articles, manuscripts, and letters of counsel. All things considered, the volume of Ellen White material alleged to have been borrowed really isn't much. And when you read what is supposed to have been borrowed, it fully blends into the consensus of Ellen White's theology and worldview. Whatever she used, from whatever source, took on the thematic structure and flavor she gave it.
Regarding the slogan "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion," perhaps it didn't win the 1884 U.S. presidential election, but certainly it was a rallying cry for the Republicnas in that and many other elections during that time, when the Republicans well-nigh dominated American public life. The bottom line is that such a slogan would never be used today, as Protestants and Catholics now get along fine--exactly as Ellen White predicted. The ecumenism forecast by Ellen White was far, far in the future when she wrote The Great Controversy.
Someone has also mentioned those Adventists who found end-time overtones in the 1960 election of our first Roman Catholic U.S. President, John F. Kennedy. This was admittedly one example of a regrettable misuse of an authentic theme in Bible prophecy. The simple fact that Kennedy was Catholic should not have constrained thoughtful Adventists to consider him an enemy of religious freedom or a likely architect of the coming Sunday law. Nothing in the writings of Ellen White lends itself to such knee-jerk thinking. As it turned out, Kennedy proved to be perhaps the strictest protector of church-state separation ever to hold the White House in the 20th century.
One final note on the 1960 election. While Kennedy received an overwhelming majority of lay Catholic votes in that campaign, William Manchester (in his book One Brief Shining Moment) has documented that most of the Catholic hierarchy preferred Nixon in that election, due to Kennedy's political liberalism.
God bless!
Pastor Kevin Paulson
Regarding the slogan "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion," perhaps it didn't win the 1884 U.S. presidential election, but certainly it was a rallying cry for the Republicans in that and many other elections during that time, when the Republicans well-nigh dominated American public life.
Kevin, it was never a rallying cry. It was a one-time gaffe in one election that may have cost James Blaine the presidency. Why do you want to double down on your own mistake?
Although, I think a close variant, "Rum, Romanism, and roués," may have been the rallying cry of the Kennedy family.
This post is in regard to Aubyn Fulton's comments above, and subsequent ones by Kevin Paulson, regarding Ellen White's opinions on catholicism being rooted in her times.
I will let Aubyn clarify himself as he wishes. However, I will say that if she is not "rooted," she certainly parallels the attitudes of the times in some respects. Her readers would without doubt be familiar with both the cultural themes and Ellen White's. The biases of the interpreter will determine whether these parallel ideas constitute "roots" or not. (smile)
For those who would like an hour's worth of context of America's 19th century viewpoints on immigration, anti-catholicism, America as the New Israel, etc. watch http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/Afla : David Goldfield, author of a new book, America Aflame, presents. 1:05, April 12, 2011, BookTV.
Take it easy! Please be nice to all former Jesuits that disagree with the demand of dictatorship of our Catholic Church in which we used to serve. Very few people know anything about the Jesuits because of their extreme secrecy but showing themselves publicly as a loving, tender care, sweet as possible. But the most dangerous about this Spectrum blog and liberal Adventists are that they decided not to believe and don't care even what the ex-officers of the Catholic church said. Sure we are one of the team members that had been scheduled to stop the distribution of the Great Controversy in other languages. But the things happened when some of our friends found dead in their very stable health and strong condition when suddenly they stop breathing (but in different occations). Others dead while watchig TV and in their vacations. In other words, they're dead in their own peaceful days.BUt this all happened in the very secret plot and plan including some orchestrated murders. Now back to the book The Great Controversy, the miracles happened in some europe and asian countries when some Adventists rejects and even hate the distribution of the book, God raised up non Christians to distribute the book, and all of a sudden some little childrens as well as mentally disabled people spoke up straightforwardly and very clear the messages written in the Great Controversy. Due to this miracles happened, some Jesuiits became so afraids and lose our "faith", then started reading the GC. All in all, you may not believe our owm testimonies. But sorry, we already anticipate it.
Why am I being censored, Alex Carpenter? Read all my past posts on Spectrum and I think you will see that I have been very respectful in them. And as for my comment from a week or so ago about Ted Wilson which caused me to be censored for the first time, I ask that you read Matthew 23 and John 8:44 and ask yourself if my comment was any more "offensive" than what Christ says himself in these passages. My comments have not been any more subjectively acrimonious than others I have read here. If you are going to censor and ban me from commenting, then you should apply your criteria equally to everyone and not just single me out. I do not think that is the right solution, however, and only ask that I be allowed to share my comments in the same manner that others are allowed.
Ron Corson, Muslim activists actually filed three "human rights" complaints against Mark Steyn and Mclean's, one in Ontario, one in British Columbia and one with the national human rights commission. Only the one in British Columbia advanced to the hearing stage, and there was a five day hearing in June, 2008, after which the BC commission declined to prosecute. Why did they decline to prosecute? Not because they had any principled reason, but because they knew Mclean's had the resources to appeal to a real court of law--as opposed to the shabby, contemptible human rights commissions--and potentially get the "human rights codes" quashed altogether. The human rights commissions like to pick on people who do not have the resources to defend themselves, like Stephen Boissoin. As Steyn said:
"they didn't like the heat they were getting under this case. Life was chugging along just fine, chastising non-entities nobody had ever heard about, piling up a lot of cockamamie jurisprudence that inverts the principles of common law, and nobody paid any attention to it. Once they got the glare of publicity from the Maclean's case, the kangaroos decided to jump for the exit."
The story is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_complaints_against_Maclean%27s....
There is no freedom of speech in Canada. I would not want to have anything to do with sending out "Great Controversies" in that particular jurisdiction. The "human rights codes" outlaw the publication of "anything that discriminates against a person or group, or exposes them to hatred or contempt" which is vague, broad, and non-specific enough to include virtually anything, absolutely including the "Great Controversy."
So because there is no real law, the cases effectively boil down to whether the "human rights commission" thinks it can bully you and get away with it. If you have the backing of a major media corporation, they'll fold, but if you're just some private citizen whose letter to the editor criticizing homosexuals or Muslims got publish, like Stephen Boissoin, they pound you into the ground. If the commission saw that the worldwide Adventist Church was willing to put a few hundred thousand into attorneys fees, they'd probably just dismiss the case and run away.
And the really frightening thing is that Pyalie is more than okay with all this. He's in favor of it. The modern Left despises freedom of speech and will deny it to any who oppose them, and that includes you and me, Ron. I say the modern "Left" because it would be truly perverse to describe these people as "liberals" or with any cognate of the word "liberty" (except perhaps "libertine"). These "human rights codes" are just campus speech codes write large to cover a whole nation. Wherever the Left rules--Canada, Western Europe, or American university campuses--free speech is a dead letter.
Kevin wrote:
“My old college pal Aubyn Fulton has still failed to document his accusation that Ellen White's statements on Catholicism were "rooted" in anti-immigrant bias. If in fact this is true, we should be able to find at least some evidence of this in her writings, or perhaps those of her Adventist contemporaries. The fact is, no such evidence has been cited in this conversation. This is the problem when one clings desperately to the illusion that all religious beliefs are the product of their environment--the essence of the higher-critical mindset. If one is to assume any human source for Ellen White's convictions in this regard, a far likelier possibility is the stance of historic Protestantism regarding the papacy, rather than the immigrant issue regarding which neither she nor her Adventist colleagues had anything to say--at least that I know of.”
**************************
I see now that two posters in this branch of the thread have issued some kind of demand that I present evidence for my assertion that Ellen White’s anti-Catholic hatred and prejudice was rooted in anti-immigrant bias of the 19th century. This demand posture puzzled me, and then I thought perhaps it stems from a misunderstanding of something I addressed to Kevin earlier:
“I stand by that claim, and would be interested in any actual evidence you have to dispute it, other than simply asserting the contrary”.
Perhaps this is seen as me similarly demanding proof from Kevin for his claim disputing mine, but that would be a mistake. I simply, literally and quite genuinely meant that if Kevin was basing his disagreement with me on some specific evidence he had, I would be interested in learning about it – but if he was just asserting a contrary claim, I was not interested in several rounds of stating and refuting competing interpretations. Kevin has every right to disagree with my claim, and is under no obligation to provide me with proof that he is right. The basis for complex claims such as these is complex, perhaps outside the scope of the comments section on a blog post, and unlikely to be reduced to a single footnote.
Kevin correctly notes that our disagreement here is related to our understanding of White as a writer. My understanding is that, whatever the exact nature of her inspiration, she was to a large degree a product of her time and culture. 19th century rural Protestants were often hostile to immigrants (and to the diversity of thought and practice increasingly found in the growing cities of the time), and this did inform their anti-Catholicism (note, by “anti-Catholicism” I do not simply meaning disagreeing with the fine points of Catholic theology or organizational practice). I suspect that Kevin is not really disputing this part of my claim (that anti-Catholic sentiment in 19th century America was related to anti-immigrant sentiment among many 19th century Protestants). This is pretty well established in the scholarship of the era, and Pastor Mitchell has provided a nice link that gives some of this evidence.
I suspect that what Kevin disputes is the part where I claim that when White, a rural 19th century Protestant, expresses virulent anti-Catholic views, she is influenced by (and her views thus rooted in) the anti-immigrant bias of the larger rural 19th century Protestant culture that she was part of. I suspect further that this disagreement in large part is a result of Kevin’s belief that the defining and important views expressed in White’s writings are influenced only (or at least to such a large extent as to render all other influences essentially irrelevant) by her divine inspiration, and that to acknowledge the influence of any contemporary cultural process is not so much a slander on her character (i.e. “she didn’t like immigrants”) but a devaluing of her role as a prophet. Clearly, I disagree with Kevin about this, but I think it would be silly for me to demand proof from Kevin that White was not substantively influenced by her culture, just as I think it would be silly for Kevin to demand proof from me that she was (and here I must admit I have no proof text from White in which she says “my anti-Catholic views are rooted in the anti-immigrant attitudes of the rural Protestant culture I have been raised in”).
I do think that the question of how White’s writings relate to her cultural context is critically important. I have my own thoughts about it, but I would love to see the Adventist community commit to an honest, vigorous and safe conversation, with input from many perspectives. Indeed, this is the kind of conversation we should have amongst ourselves, for rather a long time, before we start carpet-bombing others with copies of a book like Great Controversy.
**************************************************
Aubyn Fulton, Professor of Psychology
Pacific Union College
"We are all more simply human than otherwise"
Whenever the Right rules, or wants to rule, hurtful, hateful speech is rampant!
I am surprised, frankly, about this quibbling of the anti-catholic sentiments that were rife during the 19the century; I thought that this was generally accepted as a chunk of US history. Ellen was in the thick of it and to say that she wasn't in anyway influenced by it, is a huge stretch of reason. Here is one link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_States
"Pyalie doesn't know what he's talking about...in fact Mark Steyn was cleared by the human rights commission back in 2008"
A) I never said anything about my agreement or disagreement with the reversal. A red herring does not an argument make.
B) A reversal would negate the argument that hate speech laws are somehow nefarious and unfair.
Either way, David Read's argument is untenable.
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
The writer of this blog is a coward. Many reject the truth, but God can reach others. We trust God, we are in the last days.
I have been having a hard time understanding the dualism that goes on in the discussions of EGW's writings. On one hand there is clear historic evidence of extensive borrowing and editing. Books with EWG's name on them were not necessarily "written" by EGW to the extent that editors could purge the parts she did write if need be. On the other hand are the statements like EGW is God's greatest gift... and EGW's writings are an authoritative ... . Possibly we need to edit out all the things she borrowed and see what is left. We would, after all, then have her "writings".
Let's make it clearer. It should take at least 100 years for Ellen White just to pick up, choose and borrow from such a huge different kind of books with multiple authors to put them into her writings. But keep in mind that one of the most brilliant and success of the Jesuits' infiltrations is to abandon then wiping out Ellen White's important testimonies about borrowing. She said, "God has shown me...." (now that's your homework to find out the rest of her testimonies about borrowing) but the basic principal here is that Jesus Christ Himself has sent His Angel to show Ellen White in visions and dreams what kind of books that she needed to quote and where to get those books! It's 100% not the idea of Ellen White at all about borrowing from other sources. 100 years might not be enough if she worked alone. However our loving God not only revealed which books that she needed, but also rebuked her whenever some quotations are missing or not in the right direction. This scenario also happened to John the revelator: In 404 verses of the book of Revelation, 276 verses are directly quoted or paraphrased from the Old Testament (more than half). Sadly, not 1 in 20 SDA pastors ever read about her testimonies about this "borrowing" issues to their congregations.
"....Possibly we need to edit out all the things she borrowed and see what is left. We would, after all, then have her 'writings'".
################
Would we? .......... Should the writings of her "bookmakers" be edited out as well?
D. E. Park
Can you not discern the approaching storm, the rumble of army of Rome that is even now returning for the anti-typical second siege? The doubt and outright apostasy expressed, even by some in positions of responsibility in the Adventist Church, is another confirmation, if anyone needed it, that momentous events are just ahead of us. While the apostasy displayed is depressing, it is at the same time uplifting, because it was accurately prophesied.
“Many will show that they are not one with Christ, that they are not dead to the world, that they may live with Him; and frequent will be the apostasies of men who have occupied responsible positions.”—Review and Herald, Sept. 11, 1888.
"In the absence of the persecution there have drifted into our ranks men who appear sound and their Christianity unquestionable, but who, if persecution should arise, would go out from us" (Ev 360).
“As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel’s message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.”—The Great Controversy, p. 608.
“I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God’s people.”—Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 181.
Let the shaking of Adventism proceed, it is sorely needed.
Michael, you have demonstrated a prime example of circular reasoning that ends up proving itself - while really proving nothing but that you putting up a straw target, shooting it, then saying the shooting of the target proves the target is right. Poor thinking - sorry. Religions are great at doing this and adding in that if you doubt it then you are part of the problem. To play that logic traps everyone in it as proof of the system being right.
I don't care if the Great Controversy spam project hurts adventism as much as I hope the GC spam doesn't hurt anyone. I know too many Adventist and former adventist young people who have been scarred psychologically and spiritually by indoctrination with it. I had a guy sitting here in my office a few hours ago who beats the wounds from that very significantly. I happened to mention the project and it triggered off a range of unpleasant emotional reactions for him.
For every one person blessed by GC there are 10 cursed by it - and still cursing it!
@Michael Scheifler,
If I make a series of controversial statements, then say that in the future, people will question what I've said, when people do in fact question what I've said, does that make me a prophet?
Many of Ellen White's prophecies are classic self-fulfilling prophecies of the type I just illustrated. Sure, she uses much more elaborate language, but boil them down and the substance is that simple. She was a phoney and completely loopy, and me saying so doesn't demonstrate that I'm on the dark side - it's just a common sense reaction by someone who has studied her history sufficiently to be able to discount the possibility of a genuine prophet gift at work.
In spite of Kevin D. Paulson’s slick dismissal of the Ellen White’s extensive and unacknowledged use of uninspired, and sometimes inaccurate authors, he wisely hedges his argument with the following words.
“Whether in the sense of oral or commonly held traditions, or other authors to whom one had access, it represents evidence that inspired writers do not always get their language direct from God, without intermediate help.”
Paulson’s claim that “prior to the advent of modern copyright laws, it was commonplace for devotional writers such as Ellen White, as well as those from who she borrowed, to use without credit various sources at their command. The claim that is was considered ‘unethical’ is dubious at best,” is false. Questions arose as the handwritten manuscripts went to press. (1)
Paulson also claims that “All things considered, the volume of Ellen White material alleged to have been borrowed really isn't much”. “Even in Rea's book The White Lie, nearly all the borrowing that is alleged is in such standard Ellen White works as the Conflict Series and similar books, such as Christ's Object Lessons. Very little such borrowing is alleged in the Testimonies, and almost none in the vast collection of her writings as found in the periodical articles, manuscripts, and letters of counsel. All things considered, the volume of Ellen White material alleged to have been borrowed really isn't much.” This claim is also contradicted by the Official Ellen G. White Website. (2)
(1) “W. C. White and Dores Robinson, representing the E. G. White Estate, tried to explain what we all see more clearly today. In a 1933 document, ‘Brief Statements Regarding the Writings of Ellen G. White,’ they wrote of how Mrs. White had been counseled by the Lord to seek out books that would provide “gems of truth tersely expressed.” Further, she had ‘divine assurance that she would be guided in distinguishing the true from the false.’
“In fact, they told how Mrs. White ‘made no effort to conceal the fact that she had copied from other writers statements that exactly suited her purpose. And in her handwritten manuscripts, most of the passages that she had copied word for word, were enclosed in quotation marks.’ They then reviewed the printing process and noted: ‘The question arose, How shall these passages be handled? Much time would be required to study each passage and mark it consistently. The printers were waiting for copy, and the public were waiting for the book. Then it was decided to leave out quotation marks entirely. And in that way the book was printed. We today would have given more attention to the use of quotation marks.
(The OFFICIAL Ellen G. White Website, Chapter 40: Understanding How the Books Were Prepared) http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt40.html#note34
(2) “Mrs. White’s use of literary sources is evident in almost all of her books. Her literary sources enriched all phases of her writing, including historical and geographical details, theological concepts, and even insights into extra-Biblical matters such as activities of God, Satan, and the angels.”
(The OFFICIAL Ellen G. White Website, Chapter 40: Understanding How the Books Were Prepared) http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt40.html#note34
Adventism has nothing to lose. It is in a win-win situation.
If the membership sometimes begins to go downhill regarding how many tithe-paying members remain,
it testfies for the divinity of predictions.
If the number of members will increase, it is a proof of being favored by God.
In spite of whatever will happen, all alternatives do testify that SDA's have the truth and all the rest have only errors and are going to perdition.
Nice to be an adventist, as long as it is nice.
Pauli Heikkinen
Thanks Eddy for the excellent article. You're story about your experience in Canada illustrates the pitfalls of the GC's "Great Controversy" plan in a way not much else would.
On a personal note, I just realised you were President of the New Caladonia Mission when I visited there in approx February 2000. I was an Associate with the GC Auditing Service (SPD) and enjoyed the hospitality of you and your wife during the Sabbath that I was there. While I'm no longer an SDA, I do value the memories of many people of integrity that I worked with and associated with during my time in the church, and you're certainly one of those!
"The Jesuits direct all the affairs, and shape all the principles of the papal church in the United States. These are startling facts. Though we have long known them - we are shocked at the contemplation of those approaching evils, which this new proof brings so clearly before our minds. yes, we repeat it; the nation cannot avoid the most dreadful calamities - from this fatal and corrupt society, unless prompt and vigorous measures can be taken to deliver it from the impending curse. The Society of Jesus (Jesuits) is the enemy of man. The whole human race should unite for its overthrow. Earth and heaven should rejoice together over its tomb. For there is no alternative between its total extirpation, and the absolute corruption and degradation of mankind."
- Robert J. Breckinridge
1841, American Presbyterian Pastor
Papism in the XIX Century.
Communists and Jesuits under the beds. Every bed. Beware. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
The Illuminati consist of the Jesuits and some of the world's richest families including the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers and the Windsors. While they pay lip service to religion, they worship Lucifer. Their agents control the world's media, education, business and politics. These agents may think they are only pursuing success, but success literally means serving the devil. Prisoners of their wealth, the Illuminati prefer hatred and destruction to Love. Understandably, they can't go public with this. They pretend to be moral while working behind the scenes to degrade and enslave humanity in a "new world order." Hiroshima, Dresden, Auschwitz, Cambodia and Rwanda were sacrifices to their god Lucifer. They are responsible for the two World Wars, the Depression and the Cold War. Sept. 11, the War on Terror and the Iraq War are their latest achievements. The Illuminati Conspiracy Against God by HENRY MAKOW PhD
One of the maxims of the spiritual exercises is that if my superior says 'black is white and white is black', then that's the way it is. That is in his spiritual exercises. That is what is quoted in JFK, when Kevin Costner is telling his people: 'Hey, people, we've got to start thinking like the CIA. Black is white and white is black.' That was a Jesuit giveaway that the Jesuits produced that movie, because they're quoting Ignatius Loyola in that movie from his spiritual exercises. Eric Jon Phelps
The Jesuit schools throughout the United States are used for abuse and programming. Note, that Bill Clinton went to the Jesuit university in Washington, D.C. called Georgetown University. The Illuminati Formula 12. External Controls
So, Loyola had an indomitable will. He had a will of steel, and he set his mind to regain back what the Papacy had lost to the Reformation. And so, he went to the Pope, and the Pope in 1540 then created the Jesuit Order. But this man is a soldier, he's a lawyer, and he put together a legion of soldiers and warriors to get back what Rome had lost, as well as institute a World Government for the Pope, from Jerusalem. This was in 1540.
He started the Order in 1536. He was arrested by the Inquisition, and he was released, and he went to the Pope; he threw himself at the feet of the Pope. He would be completely at his service. The Pope chartered him, and that Pope was Pius III. The Pope chartered them, created the Jesuit Order; now he has Papal protection, and they began their awful history of deeds of blood. And war after war after war after war, they're all attributed to the Jesuit Order in some way. Catholic nobles, with lots of money, donated castles and schools and money to the Jesuit Order. Eric Jon Phelps
Well, the Jesuits had brought in all of their top Nazi SS soldiers into the CIA because the Jesuits were using the SS to kill the Jews in Europe. When the Einsatzgruppen went into Russia, the Jesuits followed with the SS and purged Western Russia of all its Jews. That's why Stalin deliberately killed 40,000 of his best officers. That's why he kicked out his best generals, purged them, because he wanted to make sure that the Red Army would lose with the advance of the German army, because following that would come the SS and purge Russia of the Jews that Stalin so hated. And by the way, justice is often poetic because Stalin's daughter married a Jew.
Now, the CIA was composed of the SS. The CIA now was an arm-and the intelligence arm-of the Vatican. The Knights of Malta were throughout. Casey was a Knight of Malta. Angleton was a Knight of Malta. The Knights were through and through. Angleton manned the 'Vatican desk', and that is a desk within the CIA that has a direct link to the Vatican. Eric Jon Phelps
To become a full-fledged Jesuit you would have had to have been sodomized by the time you were three years of age. I believe they’re all sodomites....................When a man sodomizes a child at three, the child bonds to that man as if he were their father, and when he’s a man of the cloth, of the Church, the child bonds to the Church, too. This sodomy thing has been around for hundreds of years. Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuits, was a Catholic mystic; he had to have been a sodomized one. He was the guy who headed up the Inquisition to persecute those who didn’t adhere to the tenets of the Catholic faith. Terribly cruel! How could you be that cruel if you didn’t have the sodomy rage? The torture they put people through! Later, Joseph Mengele developed the programming and brought it up to another level. He was a Catholic alter boy. I think he was also a Rothschild and a Jesuit. The founder of the Illuminati was Adam Weishaupt, trained as a Jesuit. Deprogrammer Interview with Marion Knox: In the House of the Strongman, Sodomy is the Key - by Elana Freeland
"Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time, the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of Popery . .
"To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume. Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the reestablishment of the papal supremacy.
"When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were often concealed. It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church.
"Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of state, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants, to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites."Great Controversy, pp. 234-235.
Ignatius Loyola was totally dedicated to the Church of Rome. He had a fanatical drive to aid the pope and destroy Protestantism.
"Ignatus Loyola came forward and must have said in substance to the Pope: Let the Augustinians continue to provide monasteries of retreat for contemplative minds; let the Benedictines give themselves up to the field of literary endeavor; let the Dominicans retain their responsibility for maintaining the Inquisition; but we, the Jesuits, will capture the colleges and the universities.
"We will gain control of instruction in law, medicine, science, education, and so weed out from all books of instruction, anything injurious to Roman Catholicism. We will mould the thoughts and ideas of the youth. We will enroll ourselves as Protestant preachers and college professors in the different Protestant faiths. Sooner or later, we will undermine the authority of the Greek New Testament of Erasmus, and also of those Old Testament productions which have dared to raise their heads against the Old Testament of the Vulgate and against tradition. And thus will we undermine the Protestant Reformation."B.G. Wilkinson, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, pp. 59-60.
Ignatius Loyola was guided by demons. He had a favorite place in the woods near Rome, where he would go for private sances. As he sat there with his writing materials, an angelic being in glowing light would appear and instruct him how to train his workers and clarify the work he was to do.
Wilkinson explains the training program for Jesuit agents:
"Their complete system of education and of drilling was likened, in the constitution of the order itself, to the reducing of all its members to the placidity of a corpse, whereby the whole could be turned and returned at the will of the superior. We quote from their constitution:
" As for holy obedience, this virtue must be perfect in every pointin execution, in will, in intellectdoing what is enjoined with all celerity, spiritual joy, and perseverance; persuading ourselves that everything is just; suppressing every repugnant thought and judgment of ones own, in a certain obedience . . and let every one persuade himself that he who lives under obedience should be moved and directed, under
Divine Providence, by his superior, just as if he were a corpse (perinde ac si cadaver esset) which allows itself to be moved and led in any direction (R.W. Thompson, Ex-Secretary of Navy. U.S.A., The Footprints of the Jesuits, p. 51).
"That which put an edge on the newly forged mentality was the unparalleled system of education impressed upon the pick of Catholic youth. The Pope, perforce, virtually threw open the ranks of the many millions of Catholic young men and told the Jesuits to go in and select the most intelligent.
"The initiation rites were such as to make a lifelong impression on the candidate for admission. He never would forget the first trial of his faith. Thus the youth are admitted under a test which virtually binds forever the will, if it has not already been enslaved. What matters to him? Eternal life is secure, and all is for the greater glory of God.
"Then follow the long years of intense mental training, interspersed with periods of practice. They undergo the severest methods of quick and accurate learning. They will be, let us say, shut up in a room with a heavy Latin lesson, and expected to learn it in a given period of hours."Op. cit., pp. 61-62.
It is well to understand how Jesuit teachers operate; for they are scattered throughout secular, Catholic, and Protestant universities:
"They early realized the vast importance of directing higher education as a means of gaining control of the lives of the ablest and best-connected young men and making trained intellect subservient to their purposes . . The marked ability of the Jesuit teachers, their unsurpassed knowledge of human nature, their affability of manners, and their remarkable adaptability to the idiosyncrasies and circumstances of each individual, made them practically irresistible when once they came into close relations with susceptible youth."Albert Henry Newman, Manual of Church History, Vol. 2, pp. 374, 383.
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1626) was deeply impressed with Jesuit schools, and wrote, "Such as they are, would that they were ours" (quoted in Will Durant, Story of Civilization, Vol. 6, p. 915). Once a Jesuit professor gained the friendship of a student, he would gradually work to win him fully over.
"It is probable that more time was employed in molding their religious and moral characters into complete harmony with the ideals of the [Jesuit] Society than in securing a mastery of the studies of the course . . Large numbers of the most desirable young men who entered their schools, with no intention of becoming members of the Society, were won by the patient efforts of those in charge."Op. cit., Vol. 2, p. 374.
The Jesuits have a special dispensation from the pope, that they do not have to wear any special religious clothing or sleep in a monastery at night. This makes it possible for them to enter many different walks of life and carry on their work for the pope.
"It is the same today. The 33,000 official members of the Society operate all over the world in the capacity of her personnel, officers of a truly secret army containing in its ranks heads of political parties, high ranking officials, generals, magistrates, physicians, faculty professors, etc.; all of them striving to bring about, in their own sphere Gods workin reality, the plans of the papacy."Edmond Paris, Secret History of the Jesuits, p. 30.
Their reputation for subterfugelying, espionage, subversion, and worseis well-known to the student of history.
"It is permitted to an individual to kill a tyrant in virtue of the right of self-defense; for though the community does not command it, it is always to be understood that it wishes to be defended by every one of its citizens individually, and even by a stranger . . Thus, after he has been declared to be deprived of his kingdom, it becomes legal to treat him as a real tyrant; and consequently any man has a right to kill him."Suerez, a later high-ranking Jesuit leader, quoted in Newman, Manual of Church History, Vol. 2, p. 380.
Thomas B. Macaulay, a well-known 19th-century thinker and writer, said this:
"It was in the ears of the Jesuit that the powerful, the noble, and the beautiful, breathed the secret history of their lives. It was at the feet of the Jesuit that the youth of the higher and middle classes were brought up from childhood to manhood, from the first rudiments to the courses of rhetoric and philosophy. Literature and science, lately associated with infidelity or with heresy, now became the allies of orthodoxy. Dominant in the south of Europe, the great order soon went forth conquering and to conquer. In spite of oceans and deserts, of hunger and pestilence, of spies and penal laws, of dungeons and racks, of gibbets and quartering-blocks,
"Jesuits were to be found under every disguise, and in every country; scholars, physicians, merchants, serving men; in the hostile court of Sweden, in the old manor-house of Cheshire,
among the hovels of Connaught; arguing, instructing, consoling, stealing away the hearts of the young, animating the courage of the timid, holding up the crucifix before the eyes of the dying. Nor was it less their office to plot against the thrones and lives of the apostate kings, to spread evil rumors, to raise tumults, to inflame civil wars, to arm the hand of the assassin.
"Inflexible in nothing but in their fidelity to the church, they were equally ready to appeal in her cause to the spirit of loyalty and to the spirit of freedom. Extreme doctrines of obedience and extreme doctrines of liberty, the right of rulers to misgovern the people, the right of every one of the people to plunge his knife in the heart of a bad ruler, were inculcated by the same man, according as he addressed himself to the subject of Philip or to the subject of Elizabeth."Macaulay, Essays, pp. 480-481.
"If Protestantism, or the semblance of Protestantism, showed itself in any quarter, it was instantly met, not by petty, teasing persecution, but by persecution of that sort which bows down and crushes all but a very few select spirits. Whoever was suspected of heresy, whatever his rank, his learning, or his reputation, knew that he must purge himself to the satisfaction of a severe and vigilant tribunal, or die by fire. Heretical books were sought out and destroyed with similar rigor."Op. cit., pp. 482-483.
John Adams wrote this to Thomas Jefferson:
"I am not happy about the rebirth of the Jesuits. Swarms of them will present themselves under more disguises ever taken by even a chief of the bohemians, as printers, writers, publishers, school teachers, etc. If ever an association of people deserved eternal damnation, on this earth or in hell, it is this Society of Loyola."John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson, quoted in Edmund Paris, Secret History of the Jesuits, p. 75.
We will return to the Jesuits later, as we view more of their effort to take over England and destroy its precious heritage: the King James Bible.
THE COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1563)
It is a remarkable fact that the Roman Catholic Church remained in such disorder for centuries, that it never got around to codifying its doctrines. This was due to the fact that the prelates, bishops, and priests were sensual and pleasure-loving while engaged in continual rivalries as each group struggled for power.
In such a state of affairs, it was little wonder that papal leadership had never gotten around to defining their beliefs. They were too busy with wine, women, and politicking.
But the 16th-century Reformation frightened Rome to its core. Something had to be done to stop this. Part of the solution was to convene a church council to define their doctrines, so they would be in a better position to attack the Protestants.
The Council of Trent (1545-1563) was held off and on over a period of years and gradually muddled its way through a number of enactments.
Here are several statements about the work of this council:
The pope wisely set the Jesuits in charge of infusing the council with their strange logic, which could prove black to be white, and white black.
"The Society came to exercise a marked influence to which their presence in the Council of Trent, as the Popes theologians, gave signal testimony. It was a wise stroke of policy for the Papacy to entrust its cause in the Council so largely to the Jesuits."Hulme, Renaissance and Reformation, p. 428.
Popes always fear church councilsbecause they sometimes put popes to death! But Paul III wisely sent the Jesuits to be his agents, to make sure everything went well during the sessions.
"The Council of Trent was dominated by the Jesuits. This we must bear in mind as we study that Council. It is the leading characteristic of that assembly. The great Convention dreaded by every Pope was called by Paul III when he saw that such a council was imperative if the Reformation was to be checked. And when it did assemble, he so contrived the manipulation of the program and the attendance of the delegates, that the Jesuitical conception of a theocratic Papacy should be incorporated into the canons of the church."Wilkinson, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, p. 63.
Throughout the Council of Trent, the single, most important, most basic dogma could not be settled. It was this: What was the basis of Roman Catholic authority? It could not be said that it was the Bible; for then the power would be taken out of the hands of the papacy, and they could not let that happen!
Some type of reasoning had to be worked out, on which the supremacy of the pope and the councils could be firmly planted.
In the present authors book, Beyond Pit
cairn, pp. 132-134, how that was done is carefully explained. You will want to read it carefully.
Astoundingly, the reasoning went like this: centuries before, the papacy changed the Bible Sabbath to Sunday; therefore it had the authority to command all other thingsabove Scripture!
That is surely Jesuitical thinking! Since we got away with earlier having changed the Law of God, without being struck dead by Heaven for so doing, it must mean we have the authority to do anything we want to do! Apparently, not even God dares to oppose us.
THE RHEIMS-DOUAI (DOUAY) BIBLE
(1582-1610)
Because of Tyndale and those who followed him, every plowboy now had a Bible, and Rome needed a Bible of their own. This was difficult, since they knew nothing about the book.
"The Catholics in England were placed at great disadvantage when the Protestant Bible was translated. Armed with the Bible in English, the Protestants could quickly turn to it in a dispute and simply read the passage. The unfortunate Catholic had no English Bible and had to translate [from the Vulgate] on the spot. Even in teaching their own parishioners, the Catholic priests were handicapped."S. Kubo and W. Specht, So Many Versions? p. 53.
In previous centuries, the priests merely recounted the legends and fables of the church for the hearing of the ignorant. But, now that the Bible was available in the language of the peoplethe extent of their ignorance was becoming embarrassing. Something had to be done.
William Allen, a leading English Catholic, well-aware of the problem, appealed to the pope for permission, to produce a new translation, in English, which the priests could use to oppose the Protestants. He wrote this:
"Catholics educated in the academies and schools have hardly any knowledge of the Scriptures except in Latin. When they are preaching to the unlearned and are obliged on the spur of the moment to translate some passage into the vernacular they often do it inaccurately and with unpleasant hesitation because either there is no vernacular version of the words, or it does not occur to them at the moment.
"Our adversaries, however, have at their finger tips from some heretical version all those passages of Scripture which seem to make for them, and by a certain deceptive adaptation and alteration of the sacred words produce, the effect of appearing to say nothing but what comes from the Bible. This evil might be remedied if we too had some Catholic version of the Bible, for all the English versions are most corrupt . . If His Holiness shall judge it expedient, we ourselves will endeavor to have the Bible faithfully, purely, and genuinely translated according to the edition approved by the church [Jeromes Vulgate], for we already have men most fitted for the work."William Allen, letter to the pope, quoted in Letters and Memorials of Cardinal Allen, pp. 64-65, as quoted in Hugh Pope, English Versions of the Bible, p. 250.
There was an urgent need for an English translation which could twist the Scriptures and add notes which could twist those difficult to change in the text.
For example, the Bible speaks of "repentance." But Catholics do not repent; they only do penance. So Catholic translations were needed which carefully make this switch to "penance" in every verse in which "repent" or "repentance" would otherwise appear. Very clever? Yes, very clever.
In 1568, the same year that the Bishops Bible came off the press, the Jesuits worked with some English Catholics who had fled from Englandand started a English college at Douai, in Flanders. This French city was the seat of a university, founded by Philip II of Spain in 1562; and the English college, now part of it, became the continental center for the training of English agents, spies, teachers, and translators.
The founder of this college, William Allen, had taught at Oxford and been a canon [high-placed church official] under Bloody Queen Mary.
Working with the Jesuits, Allen conceived the idea of producing an English Bible at Douai, France, which would contain Roman Catholic teachings.
The actual translation of the work was carried on by Gregory Martin, another Oxford graduate.
In 1578, warfare erupted partway through the New Testament translation, and the entire project had to be moved to the city of Rheims, where the New Testament was published in 1582. It included controversial pro-Catholic and anti-Protestant notes in the margins.
In 1593, more political problems caused the college to move out of Rheims and back to Douai againwhere the Old Testament was published in 1609-1610.
SECRET INSTRUCTIONS OF THE SOCIETY OF JESUS
The Jesuits are different. Every Catholic Priest knows this. The Jesuits have an uncanny manner financially. Operating behind the scenes, they seem very inconspicuous, but when the wills of rich Catholics, and very many non-Catholics, are filed for probate. strangely some Jesuit institution is there for a sizable amount.
They are so different in their priestly deportment and social conduct too, that other priests feel ill at ease and uncomfortable in their presence. A priestly "blast" never really gets organized until after the Jesuits have gone home. The prevailing atmosphere, when they are present, is one of uneasy suspicion. Other priests feel as though the "Jebbies" will immediately take off for the Bishop's mansion to stool on all of them. This of course is ridiculous because most bishops are just as leary of the Jesuits as are the working clergy.
Lay people also think that Jesuits are different. They speak of the Society of Jesus as the "educated clergy," -- the "teaching arm of the church". They have the "most schools" -- which is true. The quality of those schools is another question. None of them, at least in the U.S. has ever won an award for the volume of scientists or philosophers it produced. Voltaire went to a Jesuit school. He said later that he learned Latin and nonsense.
The Jesuits write the most books -- which is also true. In fact it is said that any Jesuit who can pen one word after another seems forced "under obedience" to write a book. Judging by a perusal of them, the subject matter or the treatment seems of very little consequence.
The laity are told that the Jesuits are smarter than other priests because they go to school longer. The laity do not realize that for some years those Jesuits are in their schools not as students, but as teachers -- callow, young, inexperienced boys carrying on the "great tradition" of Jesuit education.
The laity, Catholic and non-Catholic, are also told that the Jesuits are much more selective in their choice of candidates than other orders or diocesan seminaries. They pick only the smarter and more promising youngsters and thus insure a continuing crop of great scholars, teachers, philosophers, orators and, not mentioned, ecclesiastical politicians.
The truth is, as clerical wags have put it, that the Jesuits have just as large a percentage of lesser I.Q.'s as any other church order but they are smart enough to hide the numbskulls in their foreign missions to primitive countries. In fact, it has also been said, that this is the principal reason why the Jesuits have foreign missions.
However, in spite of these disparaging introductory qualifications, there can be no gainsaying the fact that the Jesuits possess a hard core of extremely intelligent, intensely loyal, politically shrewd, carefully calculating individuals. This has been so since the days of their founder, Ignatius of Loyola. A catalog of their names would include a large percentage of the great minds of the Roman Catholic Church since the sixteenth century.
Any honest student of church history must admit that behind the scenes, they have been the governing genius of the Vatican -- even though, more often than not, an evil genius.
The Jesuit Order is an absolute monarchy. Their general, "the Black Pope" rules for life. The pattern of their own Order has molded their thinking about all other political structures, including, but not confined to, the Vatican.
The Jesuits fought the democratic aspirations of the French when they helped engineer the "Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve". They were the force behind Pope Pius IX and were his principal counsellors. The Italian people knew that the Jesuits were the strongest opponents of the Unification of Italy and hated them accordingly. The Jesuits promoted the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and of the Infallibility of the Pope. They wert, the experts behind the experts of the First Vatican Council in 1870 just as they are of the Second Vatican Council.
It is obvious that an organization so vast (the largest in the Roman Church) covering the globe, and engaged in so many activities, some open and honorable, and others secret, delicate and "jesuitical" would have to have a set of rules and regulations for its own internal control much more detailed and stringent than the conventional "rules" or "constitutions" of St. Benedict, St. Francis or the other run-of-the-mill orders and congregations.
Knowing also that the bulk of the Jesuits at the grass roots did not possess the sagacity, shrewdness and ruthlessness of the "boys" in the "back room" in Rome it was necessary that many enterprises, such as "advising" rich widows, picking of rich men's sons to be prospective Jesuits, or purging the Order of a hapless Jesuit who began to think for himself, should be speeded out in detail.
But above all things it was necessary that such regulations should be kept secret. They were to be confided only to trusted superiors and if accidentally found. they were to be denounced as base forgeries.
They are called the "MONITA SECRETA SOCIETATIS JESU" -- "The Secret Instructions of the Society of Jesus."
The average "lower-case" Jesuit, not being in on the know, will sincerely tell indignant devout inquirers that these regulations are fictitious. The smart "upper-case" Jesuit knows that he had better deny their existence. He might not live to regret his indiscretion,
The existence of the "Secret Regulations of the Jesuits" has been proven beyond all possibility of successful legal refutation.
Most unbiased historians of the Roman Catholic Church and of the Jesuits acknowledge the existence of the "Monita".
The British historian, Andrew Steinmetz, in his monumental, precisely documented, "History of the Jesuits", published in London in 1848, devotes several pages to an analysis of the genuineness and history of the "Monita". He outlines the book with the same succession of chapters and content as reproduced in this present volume. He concludes that "secret regulations" did exist, considering 1) overt statements of Jesuit Generals, 2) missing chapters in early editions of the official "Constitutions", and 3) the actual conduct of the Jesuits, in so many countries and for so long. As proof of the latter he cites the catering to the rich, the rapid acquisition of tremendous power and wealth and the infiltration of the royal powers by the Jesuits as court confessors, with their tolerance of licentiousness in order to gain power. (Vol. III, p. 363, 364, 365, 366). Of the allegations themselves he cites thousands of documented instances in the 1660 pages of his volumes.
The following paragraphs are from the autobiography of a very precise and erudite ex-Jesuit. His death places him and his words beyond the customary effective reprisals of the Order.
"The MONITA SECRETA SOCIETATIS JESU ('Secret Instruction of the Society of Jesus') first appeared in print in Cracow in 1612, after they had already been circulated in manuscript form. The editor seems to have been the ex-Jesuit Zahorowski. Almost innumerable editions and reprints in all civilized tongues followed one another. The latest edition was published at Bamberg in 1904.
"The importance of the publication follows from the fact that, directly after its appearance, the General of the Order, Mutius Vitelleschi, twice (in 1616 and 1617) instructed the German Jesuit, Gretser, a prominent theologian of the Order, to refute it, and that up to most recent times Jesuit after Jesuit has come forward to repudiate it.
"It is natural that the Jesuits themselves should deny the genuineness in a flood of refutations. But such denials only merit the belief or unbelief which the denial of every defendant deserves. Only sound proof can turn the scale against the genuineness of the Monita. And such proofs have not been produced up to now by the Jesuits. Nor has any convincing invalidation of the facts advanced on behalf of its genuineness been produced.
"The advocates of their genuineness rely essentially on the fact that the manuscript copies of the Monita, upon which the printed edition is based, were to be found in Jesuit colleges. The discovery of such copies in the colleges of Prague, Paris, Roermond (Holland), Munich, and Paderborn is beyond question. The copy in the Jesuit house in Paderborn was found 'in a cupboard in the Rector's room' (in scriniis rectoris). The manuscript copy at Munich, belonging to the contents of the library of the Jesuit college of this place, which was suppressed in 1773, was only found in 1870 in a secret recess behind the altar of the old Jesuit Church of St. Michael at Munich. It would be a decisive token of genuineness if it could be proved positively that the Prague copy was already there in 1611 -- i.e. before the first printed edition in 1612. J. Friedrich's statement makes this seem probable, but not certain. What the Jesuit Duhr writes to the contrary is of no value. It is certain, however, that the discovery in Prague was so disagreeable to the Jesuits that the chief champion of the spuriousness of the MONITA, the Jesuit Forer, considered it advisable to pass it over in silence in his work of repudiation, Anatomia Anatomiae Societatis Jesu. On the other hand, he zealously demonstrated -- what no one disputed -- that the copy at Paderborn was only brought to light after the first edition had been published. Forer's silence is the more remarkable, as a manuscript note, intended for his book, treats the Prague discovery as a fact. The saying that those who keep silence when they could and should speak seem to give consent, comes to my mind in the case of this ominous silence."
These quoted words were written by a German ex-Jesuit, Count Von Hoensbroech, after he left the Jesuit priesthood in 1900*.
* "Fourteen Years a Jesuit" Paul Von Hoensbroech, Cassel & Co. Ltd. London, New York 1911, Vol II p. 7-9.
The chapter headings are almost verbatim identical with the chapter headings of the text reproduced in this booklet.
And therein lies a story.
The text of the "Secret Instructions of the Society of Jesus" reproduced here was found beneath the pallet on an adobe bed in a cottage in the Andes Mountains of Peru about a century ago.
Students of the Incas recall that prior to the expedition of the National Geographic Magazine under Hiram Bingham, in 1911, archaeologists from European countries probed the ruins of this people, one of the greatest civilizations in history.
In 1870 a French archeologist slipped unobtrusively into the office of the Secretary of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry in San Francisco, California.
He had been sent into the remote recesses of the Andes, where Pizarro and his army had conquered the Incas more than three centuries before. He had rented a room in a tiny village. This he used as a base of his operations. To this spot he returned periodically to rest from the dangerously high altitudes and to write his reports for shipment back to France.
While he was away, the family frequently rented the same room to overnight guests. One of these happened to be a Jesuit official. On his departure he forgot a little book which he had hidden under the mattress. The French archeologist accidentally found it.
It was the "Secret Instructions of the Society of Jesus" -- the top classified manual of procedure for the trusted leaders of the Jesuit Order.
It was in Latin and bore the seal, signature and attestation of the General and Secretary of the Order in Rome.
For the next few days the Frenchman labored furiously translating the work in stenographic notes into French. He then replaced the book and left.
The Jesuit returned in a few days inquiring nervously about his little black packet. He also wanted to know if anyone had occupied the room since his departure. On learning of the archeologist he began a search so relentless that the Frenchman had to leave Peru. He finally reached San Francisco and entrusted his precious but dangerous burden to Edwin A. Sherman 32 degree Mason, the Secretary of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry in California.
Mr. Sherman included the "Secret Instructions" in his book "The Engineer Corps of Hell" published in 1882.
For several years Edwin Sherman was the Masonic Historian of California. He was highly esteemed for his great accuracy and dependability. This can be verified now by anyone who will inquire about him of the Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge of Freemasonry at the Grand Lodge office in the Masonic Memorial Temple, 1111 California St., San Francisco, Calif.
Another point that emphasizes the credibility of this work is the identity of this copy, found in the fantastically inaccessible heights of the Andes in Peru, with the copy quoted by Count Von Hoensbroech in Germany, Considering that Von Hoensbroech's rendition was translated from the German and Sherman's from Latin to French and then into English the similarity is still striking.
Here are a few examples:
Sherman: Ch. XI -- "How We Must Conduct Ourselves Unitedly Against Those Who Have Been Expelled From the Society."
Von Hoensbroech: "What Attitude Should Be Taken By Our Followers In Regard to Those Dismissed From the Order?"
Sherman: Ch. VI -- "OF the Mode of Attracting Rich Widows."
Von Hoensbroech: "How May Rich Widows be Well Disposed Towards the Society of Jesus?"
Sherman: Ch. IV -- "OF That Which We Must Charge the Preachers and Confessors of the Great of the Earth."
Von Hoensbroech: "What Attitude Must be Taken up by Court-Chaplains and Princely Confessors?"
The text that follows is one of the most effective documents ever written. The tremendous wealth and power of the Jesuit Order is ample proof of that contention.
Those who have observed the Jesuits from the vantage point of the secular clergy or of another order have often wondered at their astounding success in becoming the recipients of wealthy estates, of influencing prominent citizens, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, into endorsing and endowing their colleges and universities, of instilling their scholastics and other students with a spirit of self-dedication and self immolation that would make both the Pope and Hitler feel frustrated.
A careful study of the "Secret Instructions" will give the answer. Here is a plan of financial, intellectual and military strategy that should make the planners of West Point or Number 10 Downing Street feel inferior.
Check, for example, the following:
Ch. II -- "THE MANNER WITH WHICH THE FATHERS OF THE SOCIETY MUST CONDUCT THEMSELVES TO ACQUIRE AND PRESERVE THE FAMILIARITY OF PRINCES, MAGNATES, AND POWERFUL AND RICH PERSONS."
(Think then how well the Jesuits have done with the local State Bar, the Chamber of Commerce, national corporations, wealthy foundations, in comparison with the failure of the local corner parish clergy. Think how well Georgetown, Fordham, Marquette, and Creighton have done in comparison with the Dominicans, the Sulpicians or the Franciscans!)
Ch. VI -- "OF THE MODE OF ATTRACTING RICH WIDOWS."
Just read them and weep, brethren! Read especially this sentence p. 8 "Insist upon the advantages of widowhood, and the inconvenience of marriage, in particular that of a repeated one, and the dangers to which she will be exposed, relatively to her particular businesses into which we are desirous of penetrating."
Ch. XI -- "HOW WE MUST CONDUCT OURSELVES UNITEDLY AGAINST THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN EXPELLED FROM THE SOCIETY."
This is a portrait of the pattern of persecution and annihilation that every ex-Jesuit, and in truth, every past ex- priest knows, and every future dissident can expect.
Ch. XV -- "HOW THE COMPANY MUST BE CONDUCTED WITH THE MONKS AND NUNS."
(Meaning other religious Orders -- of course)
Ch. XVI -- "HOW WE MUST MAKE PROFESSION OF DESPISING RICHES."
The gem of them all -- really meaning "How we must pretend to despise riches."
What more vicious enemies could the bishops and diocesan clergy have than those Jesuit Monitors who wrote: "We must inquire into and note the defects of the other fathers and when we find them, we must divulge them among our faithful friends as though condoling over them." (Ch. V. p. 17)
Read the Jesuits' opinion of other religious orders "calling attention to the indolence and stupidity of the Monks as if they were cattle." (Ch. XVII P. 41)
The Jesuits themselves should be concerned with the fact that history does repeat itself. In Mexico, in Peru, in France, in Italy, in Germany, in Spain, in Portugal, in Paraguay, in Colombia, in Brazil, in Argentina, in Chile, in Austria and in very many other countries the Jesuits gained so much wealth, in land, in buildings and in money, that others became jealous.
In every country the Jesuits were thrown out. Their property and wealth was confiscated.
The Jesuits are now repeating their history in the United States of America. Their landed wealth and holdings are fabulous.
What makes them think that history will not inexorably and inevitably repeat itself again here in America?
Paulson’s claim that “prior to the advent of modern copyright laws, it was commonplace for devotional writers such as Ellen White, as well as those from who she borrowed, to use without credit various sources at their command. The claim that is was considered ‘unethical’ is dubious at best,” is false. Questions arose as the handwritten manuscripts went to press. (1)
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Kevin simply displays the type of super apologetic attitude that goes immediately into spin mode when confronted with any evidence that upsets the EGW hagiographical applecart. It's this type of denial and minimizing of the facts that keeps Adventism stuck when it comes to how to healthily evaluate, reevaluate, and ultimately relate to the continuing role of EGW's writings today.
But, what was said above in another post pertains to this issue. As long as both rejection and reception of our message are interpreted as evidence of God's truth and favor, we will live in a theologically schizophrenic double bind. It is actually a false win/win, because it makes it virtually impossible for us to ever honestly examine where our methods and even aspects of our message need to be reevaluated. How can we, when we (both the church or EGW) are always right, no matter what the reception or result?
Thanks...
Frank
Frank, I remember saying long ago, when I was considerably more cynical about Adventism, that Ellen White knew that the kitty litter was going to hit the fan one day, and she created an admirable double bind to take care of that eventuality by prophesying that people would turn on her.
I'm happy to grant that she may have been doing this unconsciously, and give her all kinds of grace about it, but it sure left a mess behind.
It is impossible to think from within a double bind. My brain felt like a puck in a pinball machine for years.
There are people reading Spectrum forum who are scholars and who lived through the history of this muddle who could help us out, if they would.
There are surely scholarly people who understand double binds who could help us out here also.
Double Bind:
A double bind is an emotionally distressing dilemma in communication in which an individual (or group) receives two or more conflicting messages, in which one message negates the other. This creates a situation in which a successful response to one message results in a failed response to the other (and vice versa), so that the person will be automatically wrong regardless of response. The double bind occurs when the person cannot confront the inherent dilemma, and therefore cannot resolve it or opt out of the situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
I hope someone blogs about the double binds SDAs are in, e.g., "be a thinker, not a reflector of other men's minds"...but, remember..."if you question the Testimonies, you are committing the sin of Korah."
The institution always wins, the individual always loses.
BTW, does Seeking a Sanctuary talk about SDA nativism?
"There are people reading Spectrum forum who are scholars and who lived through the history of this muddle who could help us out, if they would."
I believe it would be if the SDA Church would let them.
That's exactly the kind of double bind I'm talking about, Dick:
We have The Truth, but don't you dare tell the truth.
God only knows how much better off we'd be today if we hadn't had a guarded Vault and muzzled scholars.
On anti-Catholic bias in 19th American Protestantism....
I am on vacation on Cape Cod, braving Hurricane Irene, so I can't go into detail, but here's my take:
Anti-Catholicism has roots that go deep into American history, because it branches partly out of the radical Protestantism of England's 17th century. Long before the anti-immigrant ruckus of the 1840s, Protestants here lived in fear that "one day" Catholicism might re-emerge in power, but as it had done several times in English history. To be clear, anti-Catholicism was rooted in Reformationist Protestant views of culture and religion but flamed by fears that America would lose its special status as a pluralist, Christian nation if Catholicism was ever acendent here.
When Catholic immigrants arrived en masse, they were first Irish, then German and Eastern European, then Italian and more recently Hispanic. Cities like Boston and New York in the period before the Civil War feared that masses of under-educated, poverty-stricken Irish would flood and dominate the east coast cities and wreak economic chaos. There was no fear they would take over government as few were elected. After the Civil War, when anti-Catholic and anti-Native American fear was re-gnited by the "Nativist" movement, right-wing Protestant writers began to re-circulate anti-Catholic theological literature in order to influence American politicians.
Ellen White's "Great Controversy" was written in the post-Civil War period as she was discovering Protestant history through 17th and 18th century writers such as D'Aubigne and Wiley, and visiting Europe for the first time. Those wishing to locate the roots of her anti-Catholicism have a lot to choose from, but should also take into account her kind treatment of Catholics in her personal life and constant re-editing of the book over decades. The book written at her spiritual height, Desire of Ages, contains strong, embracing views of aspects of the entire catholic (small 'c') christian tradition, including Catholic mystics such as Meister Eckhardt. There is not a single documented case of personal intolerance or lack of compassion for Catholics in her life that I know of.
See Harri Kuhlampi's recent dissertation on Ellen White's spirituality, reviewed here:
http://spectrummagazine.org/review/2011/01/10/finnish-scholar-offers-new-view-ellen-white’s-spirituality
In the Civil War and Irish Catholic soldier was standing watch and it was very cold and wet. When his officer appeared he said, "Colonel I wish you believed as you did before the war." The officer replied "what do you mean?" The Irishmen said, " you edited a No Nothing newspaper whose motto was 'put none but Americans on guard'".
There was a black woman who was turned down for a job. A friend commiserated with her about racial injustice. She replied that she was not turned down for being black, but because she was a Catholic.
How about we put anti-Catholic prejudice to rest just like we are doing with racial injustice?
I should also add that Lisa Diller, PhD, historian at Southern Adventist University wrote an excellent dissertation recently at the University of Chicago on the roots of ant-Catholicism in English history.
Graeme
Perhaps my frustration with the project might be a little different.
Why should the SDA church use the Protestant Reformation as "legitimate background" to a developing organization which is yet unclear on the soteriology of the major Protestant reformers.
That is the question I would ask if I were a classical Protestant and received the book.
Perhaps the SDA church should first "look in the mirror" before educating others and presenting a "bait and change" to a "third way?"
regards,
pat
Thanks Pat
That is the very core of the problem. Tom Z
As long as we don't comprehend & accept at heart what inspiration is, we have all-or-nothing reactions to EGW. On one hand, she was a prophet speaking for God. To admit any imperfection in her words or life is untenable & threatens one's entire religious faith. On the other, her imperfections prove her a sham, & rejection is the only reasonable stance.
Both responses are actually two sides of the same zero-sum coin, dependent on an erroneous idea of perfection being possible where it cannot exist--in human beings, not even inspired ones. Yet that's exactly how God has chosen to work. We need to let that truly sink in.
It does require us to prayerfully exercise judgment, which is uncomfortable. It's so comforting to believe that we can trust some things without question. Using our judgment may be criticized as rejecting God's words when we dislike them, which isn't an unreasonable warning. But, we have no other choice than weighing all things from earthen vessels in God's balance. The promised Spirit is ours to teach us & guide us into truth.
I admit that having been raised on EGW, I sometimes find it harder to appreciate the good than in some other equally imperfect religious writer. It's because I was imprinted w/ that all-or-nothing view of her gift. And that's just one danger to the current advice from Eld. Wilson that only Adventist speakers & sources have the truth to impart. It can't hold up. We'll continue to reap a sad--&, yes, spiritually immature--harvest.
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
wow Travis...that's what it is!!!...Never saw it so clearly...yes, bait and switch...that's what it is
Why doesn't the Church use a savvy approach to marketing its "product"? Find out what attracts people, what they need, are looking for, what would find a direct path to their hearts? From a financial standpoint, how wise is this tactic? What strategy does it support? How does it fit into the mission and vision plan?
A thick cheap throwaway paperback book? I'm not downing the topic exactly, but first questioning the medium.
Come on!
Why not use the church's young filmakers? Creative writers? Young advertising professionals? Communication pros? We can do much better.
What was savvy back 100 years ago--spreading print like the leaves of autumn---was savvy for THEN.
Not today. It's not that people don't read, but they read what they select. On their Kindles...They tweet. Attend films, plays, musicals, read powerfully moving books recommended by others. They support causes.
A cheap, tiny-font, 19th Century diatribe against another denomination? Is this what we truly want our entre' to be into people's hearts? Is this the face of our organization? Our public face? Who we want people to identify us with? Is this the best means?
Mrs. White herself knew better, saying that health care--reaching people where they are hurting and needing help--was the "entering wedge." That has been a smart way to reach people's hearts for over 100 years now.
The old paperback is a woefully ancient conduit for messaging. And a harder sell for the money and time invested--and for reversing the damages caused by the message which makes our organization look as if we are assassinating another denomination. Messaging, it's called. Is that our message? Our talking point?
Where are the strategists? The top communication professionals? The expert consultants at messaging? Bridging, media and message shaping? Is this plan their recommendation? Or is it the plan of people unskilled in communication techniques who have money and have told the church they will provide funding for THIS method?
Just as God uses the gifts and skills of a surgeon, He uses the skills and gifts of marketers, filmakers, message strategists and professional communicators.
Even Solomon, who urges us to be wise, and Jesus who said to be as savvy as serpants and harmless as doves, have a message of wisdom for today.
I hope the corporate church will rethink this tactic, spend time on a strategic plan which they communicate to the church, inviting our input, then getting all on board rather than seeming to placate a few moneyed people who are convinced that spreading these books has God's stamp of approval since it has theirs.
Leadership means utilizing the best minds for strategies, messaging and tactics. Our church in the past has excelled in this area. This GC project will set us back decades.
hopeful said:
As long as we don't comprehend & accept at heart what inspiration is, we have all-or-nothing reactions to EGW. On one hand, she was a prophet speaking for God. To admit any imperfection in her words or life is untenable & threatens one's entire religious faith. On the other, her imperfections prove her a sham, & rejection is the only reasonable stance.
Both responses are actually two sides of the same zero-sum coin, dependent on an erroneous idea of perfection being possible where it cannot exist--in human beings, not even inspired ones. Yet that's exactly how God has chosen to work. We need to let that truly sink in.
It does require us to prayerfully exercise judgment, which is uncomfortable. It's so comforting to believe that we can trust some things without question. Using our judgment may be criticized as rejecting God's words when we dislike them, which isn't an unreasonable warning. But, we have no other choice than weighing all things from earthen vessels in God's balance. The promised Spirit is ours to guide & teach us into truth.
I admit that having been raised on EGW, I sometimes find it harder to appreciate the good than in some other equally imperfect religious writer. It's because I was imprinted w/ that all-or-nothing view of her gift. And that's just one danger to the current advice from Eld. Wilson that only Adventist speakers & sources have the truth to impart. It can't hold up. We'll continue to reap a sad--&, yes, spiritually immature--harvest.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this.
I wonder how David must have felt eating the shewbread?
How did he justify it at the time?
We will continue to have these problems if we propagate that erroneous view of inspiration--and I predict the church will be terribly bruised.
Anonymous1 said:
Where are the strategists? The top communication professionals? The expert consultants at messaging? Bridging, media and message shaping? Is this plan their recommendation? Or is it the plan of people unskilled in communication techniques who have money and have told the church they will provide funding for THIS method?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is depressing.
I'd much rather an individual effort (interpersonal). Marketing and media "professionals"? Not so much. It's people's lives we're dealing with--not a club we're trying to grow.
Communication professionals specialize in interpersonal communication. Marketers, not so much. All the more reason NOT to dump a boatload of cheap books on neighborhood after neighborhood. Even the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons go door-to-door.
Those who believe the communication strategists don't know anything about interpersonal communication are misinformed. Top communication professionals are rarely seen, work behind the scenes, and help develop some of the most powerful communication, life-changing, approaches to spreading the word. Think home groups, small groups, virual communication, special invitations, personal dinners. Personal responses. Home visits.
Dumping tons of cheap paper on neighborhoods maligning Catholics IS depressing.
Creating relationships is intentional strategic and prayerful. Powerfully effective, too.
Anonymous1 wrote:
"....This will set us back decades."
Quite possible.
OTOH, would it be a good thing, after all.
Either Adventism is God' last message to the world, or it is not.
If it is not, wouldn't it be a good thing if SDA as an organization collapsed?
If it is the real thing, were it still a good thing if the hierarchy went bust?
Namely as it is now, the members are accustomed to let pastors to think and to study instead of the members themselves?
If I understand anything of Jesus' sermons, in the final game it is all about individuals, not churches or denominations.
Humanity is divided to those, who are on the left and those, who are on the right.
No place is reserved to greater units. Both the sheep and the goats are on their own. No denominational crutches are available.
Even in the GC scheme the individuals are those who are fleeing to mountains etc, not congregations.
So the organization is an unnecessary icing on the cake. What makes a cake is not the icing but what is under the icing.
Pauli Heikkinen
Wouldn't it be great if we could go back 150 years and know that the lord was not going to return in at least 150 years, and revise our SAD doctrines accordingly. Wouldn't the church now be a better place? I wonder if we have an opportunity to do that now?
If you wish to proceed upon the hypothesis that it was a miracle that created The Great Controversy, go right along, get your float ready. But the overwhelming evidence that comes directly from actions of the Trustees of the White Estate might slow your decision to await a verdict later. Here is an example of how the Adventist mind is shaped by the White Estate (taken from White Estate Minutes 2-2-78). You immediately see the dilemma faced by the Church. Leaders are trying to maintain the shape of inspiration in the presence of new discoveries concerning the literary dependency and the important contributions made by literary assistants and bookmakers in the writings of the prophetess. They themselves were not familiar with the extent and depth of errors and copying that suddenly erupted in 70s. The difference between the miracle and the emerging facts are exactly the difference between a mermaid and a dolphin in the sea of evidence. Notice how careful the trustees are working to maintain the myth and the awareness that even W. C. White had been misleading church members about his mother's sourcing (W. C. claimed that his mother was instructed by the Holy Spirit on how to sort gems of truth from rubbish in her copying of sources).
"At our last Board meeting, while the Board favored the acceptance of the statement on The Great Controversy, decision was made to wait the report from the seminary teachers at Berrien Springs who were asked to give their council after reading the statement in its revised form. The report which came to us was not entirely favorable. There is a strong conviction on two in Berrien Springs and two in Washington, that the White Estate would make a mistake in releasing a document admitting possibility of minor discrepencies in the Ellen G. White historical writings.
"There is also relunctance to accept fully W. C. White's witness to his mother's historical sources. But it becomes increasingly more important to make a statement available as soon as possible because of long-standing requests from our school men."
So moving to the present time respecting the Great Controversy; obviously Church leadership in Silver Springs has a superior hand over the "Higher Animals" that fuss around the edges and who make up Spectrum's readers. There is no doubt. The overwhelming discusions here do not favor the distribution of an inexpensive, poor quality (cheap) GC. Such would produce poor conversion results, cause damage to the reputation of SDA members, harm the growing acceptance of academic and medical institutions, and face it, the effort has no power to bring about the end of the world (it was already tried in 1983 with 60 million copies of GC). So what to do.
I suggest identifing church pastors, local and union administrators and GC leaders in the central organization who are not completely convinced that the project will achieve the stated ambition. Then get your mother (yourself or spread it around) to write a letter telling these individuals of the dreadful things that are about to happen. (That your mother will stop feeding her children until the brethren stop talking about distributing the GC, or words to that effect.) The GC president was stopped once in the local distribution to the surrounding Catholic homes next to the headquarters right after he took office. If nothing else save the trees!! How much better the effect would be the spending of this money to establish homes for young people now living on the streets and really make an impression in the public mind that SDAs care about the poor and less fortunate (they could work like we did at 35 cents per hour to work our way through academy)...than trying to antagonize other churches with literature out of step with the modern world. Something can be done, rather than complaining! (Don't take some of this too serious as much more thought needs to be put into a remedial project of this nature.)
Cheers
tjoe
Anonymous1,
I just had a nightmare of slick professionals in black suits making PowerPoint presentations that's all.
I think we are saying the same thing. I just wish interpersonal relationships could be more organic and arise out of a genuine concern for the other's well-being.
I disagree with the method although I cannot say that I hope they fail. I want to see successes--even though I disagree with the method and book chosen. I think there are other books we should send out first.
I just think that we should just resign ourselves to the understanding that there will always be people who are uncomfortable with choice, and who see things more literally. This is what President Wilson was talking about when he called for Ellen White to be instructional and not merely devotional.
hopeful and others like him believe that instructions are always contextual and that we have a responsibility to make choices based on the information we have. Ellen White herself seems to have faced this too when she found people following her instruction without regard to time and place and context. She wrote: "My mind has been greatly stirred in regard to the idea, 'Why, Sister White has said so and so, and Sister White has said so and so; and therefore we are going right up to it.'...God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense. Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things" (SM PG 215 - 217)
I won't say that traditional people don't reason, but that they are more comfortable thinking in certain ways. We can't change them by scorn; we just have to work alongside them.
Thank you! Some former Jesuits clubs has told us to post several new stories, histories and the plans about Jesuits here to see if Spectrum wouldn't delete all posts. And yes it did. All the truth about Jesuits we posted here about 7 hours ago has been deleted according to our easy prediction! This must be a perfect guaranteed that this typical anti-Adventists blog like Spectrum, will harden their hearts to know about the Truth for the sake of their love to Jesuits. We believe that most Adventist that don't like The Great Controversy are certainly never read it ENTIRELY from cover to cover. What a strong destructive influence of the liberal SDA!
We will leave this post up for readers to understand the ridiculous circular reasoning you employ. Your previous posts were deleted due to their extremism and lack of value in contributing to this discussion. - website editor
Ex, get with the times man! It is Opus Dei that is the new conspiracy group. The Jesuits are getting fewer and older. They don't have the ability for conspiracies. Check under your bed before you go to sleep to make sure there is no evil Opus Dei bogeyman there.
if anybody ever read thru the GC all the way just past pages 666 (I kid you not)
they would be amazed at this wondrous(?) doctrine:
the God of the Hebrews, instead of acting like a loving, forgiving Christian we tell people to be, is going to raise the wicked up from the dead, show them just where they went wrong, then violently kill them again. No Christian forgiveness, no 2nd chances, no reeducation possible, just burn them alive until they're dead........one wonders why this couldn't have been done earlier to Ye Olde Debil hisself before letting him loose to cause God's people to commit sins.....
heres the quote that the recipients of the free books would finally arrive at after wading thru questionable earth history, and just past page 666:
"The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They “shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds.” The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch—Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}"
raising my first question:
why did God allow Satan to do "his will", causing..."all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit"....why not just burn Satan to death earlier? were earths peoples to be victims of the GReat Controversy? kinda like Lot whose kids were killed allegedly in a celestial game of one-ups-manship?
didn't those "tall, majestic people living without sin "presumably on Jupiter already know that Satan was bad, so God coudda just offed him early on? and spared us all the disaster of the flood, changing animals to eat each other, burying the dinos beneath the iridium layer, allowing Abes kids to become enslaved in Egypt for 400 yrs followed by God's alleged massacre of Egypts innocent kids to begin the Exodus carefully covering up almost all the archeological evidence, to say nothing of how He allowed the debil to change our bodies so they decay even if we follow the heath mess-
age.
so question #1 is why did God allow this to go on at all? allow a devil to have free reign to seduce and deceive an innocent Eve to eat the fig? Would you put your own kids in a garden with snakes without forewarning them?
and #2 is why did God only allow this to start so late in earths history?
continuing to quote from the GC above:
..."Satan’s work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. "
(except He apparently couldn't de-convert those "tall, majestic beings" on Jupiter)
So it is written from the inspired pen of prophetic guidance that Satan has done this for 6,000 yrs....
meaning that anything which happened prior to 4000BC, such as all this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_millennium_BC
which history and archeology show happened as early as 10-12,000 yrs ago was without Satan being around to spoil things: so, according to archeology, history, and EGW, Satan is actually a johnny come lately, and nobody before 4000 BC had to worry about being beguiled by talking snakes.
Unfortunately, so much of this speculative material, widely expanded by the vivid imagination of the writer, is historically if not hysterically beyond reason....so the only people who will read and accept this stuff without winking or thinking are naive third world people without modern, scientific education, or priests who use it to tell their few remaining, aging parishioners........
.........."hey...we're not as crazy as them"....and you don't have to pay us 10% (unless you want to)
AND we can get your ancestors out of trouble too with the right candles and donations"
This could be really valuable if you croak from some secret sin, but have left your kids a few bucks for candles and instructions how to bail you out.
best of possibilities? send out volunteers (like the LDS ) to illiterate 3rd world countries, like Ghana, Bolivia, and parts of south LA and have them use the GC to teach people how to read, preferably in English...at least there might be something useful accomplished.
TIC
where there's a will and a heavy counterbalance, there's a way.
http://www.wimp.com/mastbridge/
Fr.Jim, take a look at your US$1 money. Whose eye is it in the triangle pic? What is the meaning of ANNUIT COEPTIS and NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM?
Check under your bed before you go to sleep to make sure there is no evil Opus Dei boogeyman there! Then start sodomite your sisters, mom, doughter and dogs so that the black pope keep blessing you!
Sodomy, Black Pope and Jesuits are combined exist in more than 75 millions pictures and articles--appeared just in Google and Yahoo.
Heipauli
Some of us have the word "Adventist" in our employment records, resumes, and transcripts. If the church's reputation becomes laughable and severely affected, this affects our job searches, visas in and out of certain countries, acceptance to graduate schools, and promotions.
Remember when American Adventist universities had the words "Emmanuel" and "Missionary" in their names? Visiting accreditation teams were driving by the impressive Adventist universities looking for a small Bible college building tucked behind a rolling hill somewhere.
Graduates looking for jobs, grad schools, and visas into certain countries were in jeopardy because of the prejudice people have with those words. Some constituencies have been sensitive to this bias and left the word "Adventist" out of their institutions' names; others have voted to make it prominent as a "witness" or "we're not ashamed" statement.
Most of us are jealous for the best reputation possible for the word and world of Adventist and don't want to see the ramifications of a huge Great Controversy fiasco from sending out hate speech in thoughtless action that could have been prevented and better managed with strong, sensitive and ethical leadership.
I for one would hate to see the media pick up on such a story, which is really inevitable in the market where these books are targeted.
Why not be wise?
@hopeful,
I value your contributions on this blog and usually agree with what you say. But if you've actually studied the evidence, I don't know how you can say "On one hand, she was a prophet speaking for God."
There are many examples I could site that to me, discredit the possibility of a genuine prophetic gift at work in the life & ministry of Ellen White. I'll refer to just one example - Ellen White's role in the "shut door" belief. There is ample information online for you to be able to research and verify all of these facts:
- Ellen White believed in the shut door till approx 1851;
- During 1845, Ellen White had a vision which confirmed the shut door. Her associates were at that point almost ready to abandon this error, but as a direct result of her vision, the error was entrenched for a further 6 years;
- Early Writings was later modified to try to hide the fact Ellen White had taught the shut door during this period;
- Ellen White made many statements during this period to the effect that (those we now recognise as) genuine followers of God were deceived, and that Satan was answering their prayers, because they didn't accept the shut door.
I would challenge you, and all readers of this blog, to research the above, then ask yourselves whether a genuine prophetic gift could be responsible for taking God's people backward, rather than forward, in their understanding of truth.
Robert Sonter:
You are right on the money with the "shut door" issue. This was one of the decisive issues that changed my understanding of EGW some 30 years ago. And, sure, there are so many other problems that limit the ability of an open minded person to accept EGW as a valid "addition to the Bible."
After your very well written post, be ready for a possible avalanche of all kinds of explanations, excuses, and justifications from people who refuse to deal with the facts, but would rather keep defending the evident inconsistencies.
Sola Scriptura means.... SOLA SCRIPTURA.....
Unfortunately, Adventism has been unable to understand this definition.
Let's look at the deeper issue: The Great Controversy Theme.
Your scholars proudly say this is your special contribution.
I once read about a mythological character who put on a shirt which grew into his skin, and when he tried to remove it, the skin came with it.
You guys have a lot of work to do and not a lot of time to do it. Without prayer, it's impossible, of that I am sure.
In my opinion, you can't go backward and unring The Great Controversy Theme bell. You have to go forward and mature it, or it's going to be a very, very sad situation.
The time for kicking the can down the road has officially ended. If you don't go forward and mature The Great Controversy Theme, you're just stuck with it, and you can't blame the conservatives. It won't be pretty.
On the old AT forum we used to talk about how liberal Adventism wasn't about anything much but struggling with conservative Adventism. There is no vision in that; it's futile, and there's not time for it. It's time to fish or cut bait.
It's worse. I just reread (with stirrings of dread) the seventeenth [correction: fourteenth - "In the Spirit and Power of Elias"] chapter of Patriarchs and Prophets, which I highly recommend you do also.
As I time-traveled back to my underlinings of yore, I was reminded that, yes indeed, Adventists embody the Elijah Message (and, by implication, EGW is the Elijah figure).
You remember Elijah:
And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
This is the denouement, in miniature, of The Great Controversy Theme. That's as far as you've taken it.
Oh, and the Pope is the vicegerant of Satan, per EGW.
I hope and pray the best for all of you. You are on very shaky ground, and I'm not feeling so good myself.
Maggie, outframe a bit, and the ground is shaky. Outframe a bit more, and it is shaky still....no matter how far you go, no matter how big the picture gets, as long as your foundation is based on theism, the ground is shaking and shaking hard.
The question remains the same....how much are you willing to overlook and ignore to believe what you believe?
Well, I agree that it's turtles all the way, as far as infinite regress goes, liesallies.
http://www.howies.co.uk/images/cms/blog/turtlesWeb.JPG
But in the specific microclimate of Adventism, there's specific tectonic activity.
As I feel it.
I have a hard time ignoring what I posted above - it's too horrifying. When I say the vision is beautiful, I mean as I have elaborated in in my own imagination, not as the original, flat-footed version came to us.
The full mind is alone the clear, and truth dwells in the deeps.
--Schiller
Robert Sonter said,
@hopeful,
I value your contributions on this blog and usually agree with what you say. But if you've actually studied the evidence, I don't know how you can say "On one hand, she was a prophet speaking for God."
Robert,
I wasn't making any claim on her behalf, so looks like I didn't express myself very well. I was trying to describe the two extremes typically seen in attitudes towards EGW. On this "hand" is the traditional view; those who see her as true prophetess, which requires perfection. They deny any of the evidence that doesn't support the prophetic gift per their understanding of it. One example is Kevin Paulson, who can't acknowledge any problems & rationalizes away all indications of her imperfection.
Many of us here, on the other hand, tend to reject EGW's gift based on the same measuring stick that Kevin, et al, find her authentic--perfection. They think she & her gift were perfect, so follow her unquestioningly. We were taught that, but now know she wasn't perfect, & consequently reject her having the gift. In my more generous moments, I think that perhaps we need to increase our old understandings of the prophetic gift to allow for human imperfections. I want to assess EGW more thoughtfully than the unquestioning followers.
My understanding of the prophetic gift is far from informed beyond, "The prophets spoke for God, & the priests spoke for the people." The Adventist upbringing that emphasized EGW's supernaturalness makes the problems rather overwhelming when I try now to find value in her contributions. I find it easier to be inspired by writers whom I was not taught to regard as perfect, so I feel inconsistent. Hence my desire to move beyond one of the two usual camps.
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
So many times I have heard detractors bring up the shut door episode with EGW. I question what they actually know about the concept sans their opposition to EGW. Practically nothing it seems.
If one knew the import and meaning of the passages relating to this topic it is indisputable. The problem comes up with the detractors lack of ability to separate the shut door time from the pioneers mistaken understanding of when God would come.
The error the pioneers made was when they thought Christ was coming not that prior to his return there would be a point where the die is cast so to speak.
My guess even the detractors know this to be true unless they are of a Mormon mindset.
Its silly to fault the pioneers for the shut door concept since they thought Jesus was coming it stood to biblical reason. Perhaps the detractors should provide scriptural evidence to the contrary if that is there belief. Proving that Jesus coming will not be preceded with "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." will be amusing to watch.
Michael
The Adventist terminology, ideas, and quotes showing up in this thread just today are fascinating. Some good conversation; some new and interesting stuff to chew on:
"microclimate of Adventism"
"...denouement [climax or highest point of the action], in miniature, of The Great Controversy Theme."
"EGW is the Elijah figure"
"...the Pope is the vicegerant of Satan, per EGW. "
Extra-Biblical and non-sola scriptura: "...problems that limit the ability of an open minded person to accept EGW as a valid 'addition to the Bible.'"
"...Satan was answering their prayers"
"...liberal Adventism wasn't about anything much but struggling with conservative Adventism."
"...use the GC [Great Converversy] to teach people how to read [in Third World countries]."
"Would you put your own kids in a garden with snakes without forewarning them?"
"Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things." EGW
"wonder how David must have felt eating the shewbread?
How did he justify it at the time?"
Let the conversation flow...
Michael said
"Proving that Jesus [sic] coming will not be preceded with 'He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.' will be amusing to watch."
AMUSING???
What are you talking about?
Question:
'
What is the plan for the distribution of G.C.? Will they be dumped on individual churches for the members to either mail or carry them house-to-house? Surely, Ted isn't going to personally distribute them, so what are the plans?
Millions of books don't just magically appear in millions of homes. How is this enormous project to be done?
Elaine
Elaine,
They are going to put a .pdf and Kindle version on the GC website, then engage the same spammers that sell viagra and home loans to make sure every human with a computer get's invited to download it.
[Correction: I meant the fourteenth chapter of Patriarchs and Prophets: "In the Spirit and Power of Elias".]
hopeful,
I am guessing you have already read Alden Thompson's book: "Escape from the Flames: How Ellen White Grew from Fear to Joy and Helped Me Do it Too" or even "Beyond Common Ground" based on the way you are describing the problem.
What did you think about those books?
They both seemed to address what you're talking about. I have no clue if the ideas will ever spread.
I cannot talk about his book "Inspiration" because I have not been able to get my hands on a copy.
It might be better for most people to read George Knight's Ellen White series. Simpler and less "rebellious" I suppose.
Anyways, both books made sense to me.
I have a problem with the either/or views on EGW. Views that say Either she was a prophet - believe every word she said or she was not a prophet - discard her.
She was our "window" on the Scriptures - in that 'the way" she wrote was how the bible writers wrote - in their day, in their times, in their words, in their their cosmological understanding, in their cultural milieu.
Inadequate and Ill formed ideas as to what a prophet is – and how a prophet wrote - leads to doctrines of infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture - which in turn are overlaid onto EGW much to our detriment .
"Inadequate and ill-formed ideas as to what a prophet is--and how a prophet wrote--leads to doctrines of infalliblity and inerrancy of Scripture--which in turn are overlaid onto EGW much to our detriment."
Who is responsible for that picture? Individual members? The Church? Was it simply dreamed up somewhere and no one initiated it? Is it up to each member to struggle with this concept all by himself?
Wasn't it taught in all SDA schools for nearly 100 years? How many generations have been deceived?
Elaine
If God lived next door to Wilson would He want the book in his mailbox from his neighbor?
@ Michael: "... the detractors.."
My guess then is that in your dictionary, the definition of "detractor" reads:
A person that takes the FACTS of an event into consideration and makes comments about them. A person who does not accept any cheap explanations for FACTS that happened and can't be denied. A person that speaks up based on FACTS and does not dare to stay silent in the presence of deceitfulness being addressed to the crowds. A person that won't be intimidated by any hierarchical power "just because..."
In this sense, yes, I see many people here that can be called genuine detractors, including myself...
When we see some absurdities being said, we think it's appropriate to roll "the tractors" over the errors that continue being taught to the church members.
Which errors are those George? That before Christ comes the door shuts?
Michael
I would just like to mention that we seem to have a "George Bush" problem with Ellen White.
People who do not fancy her seem to think that she is at once both a scheming genius and a hapless simpleton.
She was a widely read woman who couldn't write? How is this?
I tend to think that if she isn't working for you, you might put her aside or something. I sometimes think the portrayals here are a bit too vivid for someone who has been dead for nearly 100 years.
I will admit that I think the church has botched this. It took me a while to start reading Ellen White again. However there must be a difference between Ellen White and those who have used her decades after her death.
I just figure that if Ellen White was even remotely normal and if God picked her to be a prophet, then she must have had an incredibly hard job. I would not want a job like that at all! She could only do her best.
That's just my humble opinion.
I like Great Controversy. I think it a wonderful book, with an important theological perspective on the history of the Christian church.
But it isn't a book that most people are going to read. Especially in the gaudy paperback versions that I've seen. Most copies will indeed be thrown out. That is not a judgment on the book.
When it was originally sold--to the general public, mind you--it was marketed door-to-door through "subscription," in beautiful editions. It was sold as something substantial that you would want to keep--not something that you would imagine throwing out.
That Canada has limitations on freedom of speech and religion is irrelevant. That folks disagree with its philosophy of history or its details is irrelevant. That liberals with various gripes against Adventist belief dislike it is irrelevant, too.
I am against this mass distribution because I think it a poor way to treat a valuable book. Much better to have a better marketing campaign that simply directs people here: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc.asp
Michael,
If you are asking "what errors are those?", then there is not much to be said.
At this point in time, after all these years of issues being exposed and discussed, of books being written, after Glacier View, etc., a well informed person would not ask such a question.
I thought you were familiar with all these issues, but may be it was just a poor guess on my part.
Will leave it as is.
In the Great Controversy book there is quite a bit of prediction about what not only Roman Catholics but also Protestants are going to do to God's remnant in the future. EGW said that she was shown these things in vision. How much confidence can we put in these prophecies when over a 100 years have gone by and none of them have been fulfilled? She also said that she was shown several other things, and Walter Rea and the EG White Estate (Ron Graybill at the time when he still worked for them) all showed that after saying or writing these words (I WAS SHOWN) she copied from another book!
Sorry, but that is deception, and just because she is considered a prophetess by the official SDA church is no excuse to keep on deceiving the members into the idea that when EGW said the words "I was shown", she was sharing things that an angel showed her in vision, when it was a quote from another source.
Donna, I don't think there's much choice; because of the way her writings have been treated the church has basically pushed Ellen White's writings to the point that we either: 1. Cannonise her writings (which begins an agonising process of distinguishing which of her works are inspired, and which are less than inspired, and will once again relegate the church to the list of cults), or 2. we ditch her all together.
@Michael, "The problem comes up with the detractors lack of ability to separate the shut door time from the pioneers mistaken understanding of when God would come."
No Michael, the problem is that in 1845, Ellen Harmon (later White) claimed that God showed her in vision that AT THAT TIME, the door of probation was closed. Clearly it subsequently emerged that the door of probation was NOT closed at that time. There are just 3 possible explanations:
- God lied to Ellen;
- Ellen lied about her vision; or
- The vision wasn't genuine.
I consider option 1 to be a non-starter, and option 2 to be implausible.
Seems Robert cuts with Occum's razor.
Some say that the educated in the Adventist church are used to the hieroglyphics on the wall and all the sacred associations, and that they love to sit on a barrel under an umbrella in the bright sun and speculate how the world works. So let's try to understand the economic engine that is driving the dispersion of The Great Controversy...after all we are talking of a project that could cost a few millions; counting all the time to promote, transport and stack the 127 million books in warehouses. Unless someone has better information, this is what I suspect has happened (all names removed for privacy).
An Adventist owner of a large group of extended care units in Oregon, (what used to be called old folks homes) has built up his business to great value. He is aging and is not sure that his sons can carry on the business in the future. Then he learns that he has an aggressive cancer and may not have long to live, a few months at most. A buyer comes forward and agrees to purchase the business for roughly a billion dollars. After the sale of his business this business man writes a check to the General Conference for $100 million dollars, or ten-percent tithe on his gain. He stipulates that none of this money is to go to Adventist education....he has been following educatetruth.com and does not trust even his ala mater Walla Walla College after the religion department came apart years ago (before Walla Walla was a university).
Furthermore, he stipulates that the money is to be used strictly for evangelism...the kind of evangelism that will bring off the end of the world. Even if it provokes persecution and the Adventist have to run to the hills that is exactly what he wants the money to do. After all he only has a few months to live and does not want to remain underground long like his own parents. A hundred million plus all the tithe and other offerings supporting the local conference and church over the years is not a ticket to the sea of glass. But with blessings from the brethren to carry out his plan to distribute The Great Controversy the hundred million should be listed among his attributes of faithfulness, and better than most others. That represents about a tenth of the North American annual tithe from the rest of the pew sitters.
I am quite sure that the average man and woman is built to understand how something like this could explain why the church is not having to sell off assets to fund this enormous project. And I am beginning to think that the insides of this story are true.
Cheers
tjoe
i say, God had to have lied. If He does it once, what is stopping Him from doing it twice?? He once held His hand purposefully over the truth to test us, which constitutes a 'white' lie to me.
Hopeful
I have deep respect for Dr. Aldan Thompson. He is now retired from Walla Walla. I have a number of his manuscripts and had carried on a brief e-mail conversation with him. He is a deep scholar, a dedicated Christian, a very kind gentleman, and a wise and compassionate teacher.
Yet if one takes the claims of Ellen White and the White Estate at full face value--then one would have to conclude that God also grew over time.
From the every first "vision" Ellen White "claimed" "she was shown" Then she blamed God for Wm Miller's error. Does God play games: as with Job and Jonah?
Recent scholarship from an impressive array of scholars have shown us the source of her "visionary" material. Moreover, even with her extensive reading her personal writing remained at the fourth grade level. It was her dedicated crew that brought her scribbling to publishable form.
With all due regard for Dr. Thompson, I find that Ellen White's theology began with a John Wesley Post-Aldersgate view of redemption and eroded into a John Wesley Pre-Aldersgate perfectionism.
The Book The Great Controvery demonstrates that journey perfectly--particularly in the final chapters and the final generation that vindicates God.
If the Latter Rain is a sign of God weeping then certainly the Book Great Controvery will bring it on.
Tom Z.
@ Tom Zwemer: Then, that being clear, the matter is settled. Debate over. done. It is finished.
Now, lets move on - next topic....
@Joe Willey: "And I am beginning to think that the insides of this story are true."
There is a high probability that the story is true. When such details start popping up, it's like a smoking gun. And when big money is involved, than the probability increases to the roof!
MONEY ALWAYS SPEAKS LOUD!!!
In ADventism, too, money is power. Big power. It always has been.
How many Bibles could have been distributed with such a big donation?
But I know..., the "Appendix to the Bible" is actually more important/relevant than the Bible...
And the donor is in a hurry, of course. The church must be persecuted as quickly as possible. Poking the snake with a very short stick will do it!!!...
@Joe Willey -- there was an Adventist Review article on the $100 million dollar "special tithe" that seems to have disappeared.
Tom,
"I find that Ellen White's theology began with a John Wesley Post-Aldersgate view of redemption and eroded into a John Wesley Pre-Aldersgate perfectionism."
Aldersgate 1738
Wesley - Entire sanctification...Christian perfection 1758, 1765 ?? Sermon 43..etc
Aldersgate = entry level justification
Entire sanctification = mature believer ..
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Most in churches, of all types ,are stuck in spiritual protracted adolescence and end up being choked out by the world and/or flesh.
The SDA church is heavily infected/contaminated by defeatist doctrinal dope.
The trend is inching toward Calvinism year by year.
The grace of God is being turned into a license for sin.
Currently,the SDA church is one of the most dangerous and deceptive denominations to belong to because of the embracement of law yet also the growing inclusion of Calvinistic doctrinal deception.
The result of listening to this doctrine is becoming religious criminals and fanatic insubordinant gainsayers, like the JEWS who hated and killed Jesus as well as his followers.
Jim,
This is why LOCAL CHURCHES should become stronger and more independent. Yes, congregational indeed!
They are already self-sufficient, of course, but they could do much better if they stopped financing the party upstairs.
" I Have a Dream"...: An ADventist (or even AdVENtist...) church that is "de facto" based on SOLA SCRIPTURA.
But I know that some dreams never come through... Thus, the nightmare continues, based on "noctural visions"... aka "midnight transcriptions"...
Thank you, Kevin, for identifying the source of the pamphlet as the Shepherd's Rod.
George,
Thanks
I see that it will be even more micro instead of macro.
There are the groups at each church who trash the eyesalve required to discern the deception so pervasive all across the organization. The shaking is getting easier to see in groups where there are so many who reject the righteousness of JESUS. So many are satisfied with vicarious fiction.
>>> EGW said that she was shown these things in vision. How much confidence can we put in these prophecies when over a 100 years have gone by and none of them have been fulfilled?
The list of the fulfilled prophecies of EGW is a VERY short list.
The list contains none that are surprising.
/Bevin
@ Trinidad/Tobago
@ Tom Zwemer
Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I'm a big fan of Alden Thompson's. He was one of my teachers at WW, & is a godly man who doesn't deserve the controversial label whatsoever. The fact that some see him that way bodes ill for the expansion of a more nuanced understanding of EGW's spiritual gifts. Elder Wilson's emphasis on the continuing authority of EGW reinforces those who persist in denying any of the problems time has revealed. As long as they refuse to acknowledge her feet of clay, there are going to be opposing efforts to reject her. I believe that we could grow in our concepts of supernatural giftedness & more appreciate EGW's devotional contributions, but in the foreseeable future I fear there'll be only the two extremes fighting each other. Too much meaning has been attached to one kind of loyalty to EGW.
Perhaps there really aren't other possibilities, due to the spiritual damage suffered when the traditional view was disproved for all but the most absolutist.
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
1. hopeful,
I often worry myself if Dr. Thompson's ideas will catch on--and I do wish I had the opportunity to meet him like you have. Like I hinted before, I think that George Knight's series is introduction enough to Dr. Thompson's perspective.
Anyone who reads the books will come away with a healthier view and will be better able to handle what comes next (Thompson): "Meeting Ellen White", "Reading Ellen White" and "Walking with Ellen White". You may have read them before but I have only read two.
Also, I think that anyone bent on pushing one view on the church will have a harder time than before.
I tend to agree with Jon Paulien that God uses societal/cultural swings to prepare the world to receive His message. I think that the current postmodern climate is providential in that the church cannot be as arrogant and uncaring as it used to be in reaching out to people. People are way more independent now, and information is much more readily available than it was in the pamphlet and cassette era.
I also think it really is a different church than it used to be. All the old church structures that could have been used for good (I'm referring to academies and some other institutions) but were not always used for good now have a looser grip on the church membership. We are no longer able to retreat inside ourselves like we used to--we are now forced to engage the world and to present God on His merits. The focus on relationships is here to stay. (And remember my part of the world is more conservative than the NAD and TED).
2. Dr. Zwemer alluded to this interesting idea:
"Yet if one takes the claims of Ellen White and the White Estate at full face value--then one would have to conclude that God also grew over time."
I believe Dr. Thompson might say that man grew over time and that God was there every step of the way. It took one recent New York Times story about teenage love in Afghanistan to remind me of this. What we would find abhorrent (stoning the couple) was the very thing most of the people in the story thought was the right thing to do. How is God supposed to approach such people?
@ Trinidad/Tobago
I appreciate your well-expressed reasons for hope.
I'm enjoying this site, to which Maggie linked earlier. Lots of good thinking on how we go on from here re: EGW, & avoiding the reject-or-revert extremes.
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/white/index.htm
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
"He stipulates that none of this money is to go to Adventist education....he has been following educatetruth.com and does not trust even his ala mater Walla Walla College after the religion department came apart years ago (before Walla Walla was a university)."
Bully for him; why fund a broken system? And Walla Walla? With a certain theologian being permitted to finish his career there I can fully sympathize with this described benefactor. May his tribe increase until the educational system has been revamped to reflect Biblical values in all areas.
If all the Great Controversy books were rounded up from landfills, nursing homes, thrift stores, how many would we have? Close to 127 million?
Do we really need to reprint 127 million more copies when they can be easily downloaded from the internet as a PDF?
I suspect that local churches will be responsible for securing the funding necessary to mass mail the Great Controversy to their assigned respected zip codes.
CIs this the first time this project is attempted?
Consider PROJECT: Steps to Christ, as a 501(c)(3) charitable organization, is a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church which has been a member of ASI for 18 years. They currently run a similar project that bulk mails Steps to Christ and Great Controversy. During the month of August 2011, A Total of 24,041 at the Edge of Time (Abridged Great Controversy) were mailed out .They have mailed out nearly 20,000,000 books since that humble beginning almost 40 years ago.
Here is what their website has to say about the effectiveness and cost/benefit ratios:
http://www.projectstc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1...
Q. Don't most people throw away the books they receive in the mail?
A. Yes, they do. But in the context of the sacrifice of Christ, this loss is to be expected.
Q. What percentage of the people respond to these mailings?
A. We average nationwide between four and five responses per thousand books mailed, depending on the book mailed and the demographics of the target area.
Using PROJECT: Steps to Christ, you or your church can...
1) sow the gospel seed
2) open doors for personal outreach
3) discover and meet the felt-needs of your community
4) develop new Bible study leads
5) prepare the ground for future evangelistic meetings
6) plant a new church
7) and hasten the soon return of Jesus.
Question: How many Bibles and books did Jesus distribute?
Few insiders to the White Estate have been able to bring to public view about Ellen White's writing career as well as Ron Graybill, former Associate Secretary. Unfortunately, he was "reassigned" in February 1984. Graybill wrote a PhD dissertation for Johns Hopkins University titled, "The Power of Prophecy: Ellen G. White and the Women Religious Founders of the Nineteenth Century." I'm hoping he will publish this as a book. But during the time he was there he uncovered hidden and fresh insights to this day are unmatched. Graybill traced the history of The Great Controversy, Ellen White's most important book and a huge money maker for her business (she generally employed ten to fifteen people on staff). When her husband passed away in 1881 she inherited an estate worth $20,000. In today's inflated terms about a million dollars. Around the end of the nineteenth century her income from book royalties was about $40,000 or in inflated terms today, about two million. Of course she funded many projects that interested her and eventually ended up with fifty or more holders of debt at her death in 1915. (see Gilbert Valentine. The Struggle for the Prophetic Heritage. 2006.)
Graybill outlined the evolution of The Great Controversy in his thesis. An Advent Christian writer, living in Rochester and known to the Whites was H. L. Hastings. He published "The Great Controversy Between God and Man" in 1858, and although not a Sabbatarian Adventist the White's advertised his book in the Review and Herald under "Book Notice" by James White in March 1858. Hastings often contributed articles to Review and Herald in the early days.
Hastings book was somewhat different than Ellen White's much later version of The Great Controversy. But Hastings book, like Ellen White's, covered the history and prophecies from "Paradise Lost" to "Paradise Regained. John Milton was standing "somewhere in the background of both." Graybill goes on to explain that Ellen White had a vision in Lovett's Grove (Ohio) in March 1858 and not long after this she published her own version of the cosmic war as "The Great Controversy Between God and His Angels and Satan and His Angels"....which morphed into what we call today "Spiritual Gifts" (Vol 1). There are some Adventist historians who claim that James and Ellen White had Hastings book with them as they traveled by carriage to Lovett's Grove. Whatever....it is obvious that the broad outlines of The Great Controversy (although not copied from Hastings) also had an earlier derivation.
One major difference between these two books was explained by Ellen White. "While writing the manuscript of Great Controversy (sic) I was often conscious of the presence of the angels of God. And many times the scenes about which I was writing were presented to me anew in visions of the night, so that they were fresh and vivid in my mind." Letter 56, 1911, quoted in The Ellen G. White Writings, p. 117. Hastings never made such a claim.
Cheers
tjoe
The first thing I am going to do when this book is being distributed in my area is to preach a pointed and rather vehement homily about Adventism, the JW's, and the like. I am obliged to protect my parish from this kind of thing. My people will come away with the understanding that Adventism is a cult based on a lie that preaches anti-Catholic bigotry. I will of course mention that some Adventists have moved away from that. So the effect that this book distribution will have is akin to a Klan march in Harlem. Nothing good will come of it.
Fr. Jim,
That's exactly what is going to happen everywhere if this unresponsible plan is executed.
Please remember that I am one of those who have "moved away from that.".... :):):)
But it seems that a new plan is being developed by the General Conference, i.e., a "bonus book" being delivered attached to each Great Controversy mailed or handed out.
The bonus book of preference has been: The White Lie, by Walter Rea...
Thanks, David, for your reasoned posting concerning the gravity of situation concerning the proposed distribution the GC, given Eddy Johnson’s experience with it having been reported as “hate literature” to the Police Commissioner of Montreal. Thanks, too, for distinguishing between The Criminal Code of Canada and the Canadian Human Rights Commission. While, as you pointed out, it would not likely result in a conviction under the criminal code, the attached publicity to the case, or even to the charge, would be disastrous. The CHRC is another, more unpredictable, body entirely. My next post will comment on it.
Furthermore, Eddy related the hurt and offense that it caused to another group of people and his wish not be in a position to defend it again in a similar situation. Well, that is the position we will all be placed in.
Given that 86% of the population of Quebec is at least nominally Catholic, should one assume that like- minded people to those who reported it on the earlier accession would not read it with the same view.
Also, there is very little public religious discourse and tolerance for its extremes in Canada, where there are unwritten but well-defined boundaries as to what is acceptable and what isn’t, and the GC would certainly be an unwelcome tome.
Lastly, the quality of writing, historical inaccuracies, and highly offensive charges against the Catholic Church are an embarrassment.
Apologies to FR Jim.
fc
David, I think that, for the most part, your assessment of the CHRC issue is accurate. Here is some background.
“The Canadian Human Rights Act is a statute originally passed by the Parliament of Canada in 1977 with the express goal of extending the law to ensure equal opportunity to individuals who may be victims of discriminatory practices based on a set prohibited grounds such as gender, disability, or religion. The Canadian Human Rights Act outlines the creation of a Canadian Human Rights Commission that investigates claims of discrimination as well as the creation of a Canadian Human Rights Tribunal to judge the cases.”
I regret that I have misplaced the exact online source of the following quote, but it is from Ezra Levant.
“Gradually the Commission was transformed from a remedial body to a prosecutorial entity which danced to the tune of its chief complainant…. Critics of Section 13(1), regard it as an unwarranted chill on our Charter right to freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression that imperils spirited public discourse.”
“Now, surprisingly, a member of the CHRC tribunal agrees But In a bombshell ruling this week, Athanasios Hadjis flatly challenged Section 13's constitutionality. Hadjis argues that back in 1990 the CHRC could only issue a "cease and desist" order, not impose punitive fines. That changed in 1998. "The potential `chill' upon free expression may have consequently increased," he reasons. But Hadjis also found Section 13 to be unlawful because it is more than a "minimal" infringement on freedom of expression. This ruling strengthens the case for Parliament to get the CHRC out of the business of policing hate speech by repealing Section 13 and leaving the problem of hate speech to the criminal courts…"
Fr Jim,
I am curious whether you will be willing to share a few words regarding your feelings as you read all these comments here, about EGW and the statements made about your church.
How do you feel?
Pat...
You make areally cogent observation. I heard R.C. Sproul present the gospel from the reformed perspective recently, and not only did it feel like water to the thirsty, it also was clear that this simple good news of the gospel is often remarkably muted and muddied in the Adventist church. I found myself crying with a mixture of wonderful joy and some frustration as well.
How can we consider ourselves the heirs of the reformation, when we are so confused about the Reformational gospel?
Thanks...
Frank
"After they get it in the mail, they have been presented with the choice, our obligation to them is complete, and as far as "finishing the work" we needn't concern ourselves further with them."
Rich, please understand I wasn't advocating for this point of view, only stating what I've heard, though I wouldn't underestimate it as a motive for doing evangelism that may seem ineffective to those who understand marketing. I'd be interested to know where that idea originated, for it surely is out there in the church.
Loren
Loren,
I think the idea originated with the instruction given by Jesus as His disciples prepared for their missionary journey: "And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city" (Mark 6:10, 11).
It may be an unfair extrapolation from His words, and the attitude leaves me cold, but I'm sure that's where it comes from. The attitude is widespread--about a lot of things. They've had their chance, and they blew it. They deserve whatever they get. Really loving and caring, isn't it?
Jim
Fr Jim, there are good and bad people in all churches. God cares for His flock. That doesn't change the truth of the Bible contained in the books of Daniel and Revelation. Seventh-day Adventists are not the only people who have accurately identified the Antichrist of the Bible as the Papacy. We are in good company with the great reformers. Unfortunately the so called Protestant churches that the reformers started protest nothing anymore. They are quickly falling in line to kiss the popes ring and put themselves under subjection to the Pope. It may not be popular to say this truth, but it is the truth.
You can preach against the Great Controversy and the messages of Daniel and Revelation, but you can't beat God. His truth will always win.
Faithful Disciple
Fr. Jim --> 3abn is experiencing some of what the catholics have experienced.
Fr. Jim,
I dully apologize for what this F. Disciple wrote above to you.
Please disconsider it all. It's just such a low level of interaction that I can't believe a person in their normal mental condition could do so much damage to their own church. He thinks he is attacking you and the RCC. But, in fact, he is throwing mud on his own church!
He does not represent ADventism. He represents the ADventist TEA PARTY. And you know how they have difficulty to utilize reasoning and common sense. Left alone Christian behavior and decency...
The reasoning reminds me of Pilate, who washed his hands of the whole trial and crucifixion of Jesus.
Those who have distributed all these books can then wash their hands of any further responsibility and wrap their self-righteous cloaks around them and know they have faithfully "witnessed."
Elaine
George, I regard them the same way a black man would feel when someone uses the "N" word in reference to him.
Faithful D., I used to be a Presbyterian. How do you feel about Calvin burning people at the stake? Or Luther's encouraging the Princes to massacre the peasants? Yes, the good ole' days. Catholics in the USA had our churches burned and our people murdered in the street by people shouting the old time religion of the Reformers. Does that make you proud? Do you want to bring back the violence and wars? Look at the current people who agree with you about the Pope. Do they look all that great to you? Really?
I see no great movement to kiss the Pope's ring by Protestants. So it isn't true. It is false. Actually Benedict prefers a simple handshake.
We Catholics believe the gates of hell will not prevail. He promised that to Peter the first Pope. So "Faithful D" you can rage against us, publish falsehoods about us, but you won't prevail.
Thanks, Jim. That's a text I'd not applied to this strange doctrine of removing excuses.
Another that comes to mind is Matthew 24:14. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Once we've witnessed to everyone—once they've heard it, whether or not they accepted it—Jesus can return. I'm trying to remember what Ken Woods and others called it. The harvest principle?
lorenseinbold: Yes, you are right, THE GOSPEL! Not the Great Controversy book, a mere historical compilation full of added provocations and disrespectful statements about other Christians!
------------------------
Fr Jim:
I understand your comment about the feelings as related to the "N" word.
Eletism along with arrogance and pride make a horrible person, or a horrible church.
I am glad, though, that there are so many good and peaceful people among the Adventists, too. Not everyone takes a beligerent position against other religions. But, yes, unfortubately many do. And this is bad.
Keep visiting!
Is this what we should tell our Catholic friends (mostly Hispanics) and neighbors, around the world, that their church is “a mammoth system of deception" and a "dangerious foe to civil and religioius history"? Furthermore ever beliver they "should abhor and to shun it (Catholic Church).”
“The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done…
“Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side…Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty.”
“The worship of images and relics, the invocation of saints, and the exaltation of the pope are devices of Satan to attract the minds of the people from God and from His Son.”
“Through this mammoth system of deception the prince of evil achieves his purpose of bringing dishonor to God and wretchedness to man.”
“A prayerful study of the Bible would show Protestants the real character of the papacy and would cause them to abhor and to shun it.”
“She (Rome) is silently growing into power…She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated… Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution.
Quotes from Great Controversy
The problem is that today most SDA’s do not believe this anymore.
.......and you have a problem with that????......lol
HELLO EVERYONE!
WHAT A GREAT IDEA OUR NEW PRESIDENT CAME UP WITH THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE GREAT CONTROVERSY. WHAT A MARVELOUS BOOK FULL OF PROPHETIC TRUTH FOR A PROPHETIC MOVEMENT. TO ALL OF MY BRETHER: THE SAME JESUS THAT PRONOUNSED THE GREAT BLESSINGS OF THE BOOK OF MATHEW IS THE SAME JESUS THAT SAID IN REVELETION 3 TO THE LAODECIAN CHURCH BECAUSE THOU ART LUKEWARM. IM ABOUT TO VOMIT YOU OUT OF MY MOUTH BECAUSE YOU SAY THAT THOU ART RICH AND THOU ARE IN NEED OF NOTHING BUT. THOU DO NOT KNOW THAT THOUGH ART NAKED, POOR, SHAMEFUL.
MY BROTHERM, ISNT THAT THE SAME SWEET JESUS OF MATHEW? IF THE CHURCH DOESNT. DISTRIBUTE THIS BOOK AT THIS. SPECIAL TIME IN PROPHESY WHEN WILL It be. A BETTER TIME? WOULD WE WAITE TO SEE TGE PLAGUES COMING DOWN. AND SEE THE PEOPLE. BEING DESTROYED BY THEM. AND THEM TELL THEM THAT WE KNEW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND THEN TELL THEM AFTER THEY ARE LOST?
OUR PROBLEM MY BROTHEREM IS THAT WE DO LIKE THE JESUS OF THE BLESSINGS OF THE BOOK OF MATHEW BUT WE, YES, WE DONT LIKE THE JESUS WHOS ANGRY IN THE REVELATION 3. GOD DIRECTED THE WRITING OF THIS GREAT BOOK AND IF WE DONT WANT TO DISTRI UTE THIS BOOK BECAUSE IT IS " HARSH"
THEN WHY D
ONT JUST TELL GOD THAT HE IS WRO G AND THAT WE MORTALS KNOW THE THE PEOPLE AND HE DOESNT. MY BROTHEREM. NOT EVERY ODY WANTS TO HEAR THE TRUTH. NOT EVEN WE AS A PEOPLE. BUT THE TRUTH MUST BE TOLD WETHERR WE LIKE IT OR NOT. THE GREAT CONTROVERSY BOOK IS FULL OF LOVE FOR THOSE WHO LOVE AND WANT TO TO K KNOW THE TRUTH. IT TEACHES. EVERYTHING THE CHURCH HAS BEEN TEACHING FOR THE. 160. YEARS OF ITS EXISTENCE.IT CONTAINS PRESENT TRUTH FOR THIS SPECIAL TIME. WETHER SOME OF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.WHEN THE SUNDAY LAW BECOMES A REALITY MANY PEOPLE WHO READ THE BOOK WILL REALIZE THAT THE BOOK WAS RIGHT. AND THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO K OW THE TRUTH WILL JOYN THE TRUE CHURCH. IF ALL OR SOME OF YOU DONT BELEI E IN THE BOOK THEN YOU ARE NOT A SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
GREAT QUOTATIONS!! PRAISE THE LORD!! THE MAJOR REASONS WHY MOST ADVENTISTS DONT BELEIVE THIS ANYMORE IS BECAUSE
A GREAT NUMBER OF OUR PASTORS ARE IN LOVE WITH ROME AND
ARE FLURTING AND HAVE BEEN FLURTING FOR AGES WITH CATHOLICISIM VIA THE ECUMENICAL MOVEMENT AND WE CONNOT DENIE IT.SOME ARE WORRIED THAT THE BOOK WILL
OFFEND PEOPLE. DOESNT THE BIBLE CONTAIN OFFENSIVE WORDS
LIKE " WHORE" ? WHAT WOMAN LIKES TO BE CALLED A WHORE?
THAT. UGLY WORD IS IN THE BIBLE ISNT IT? AND THE BIBLE CALLS A WOMAN A CHURCH A WHORE.TRUE OR FALSE PEOPLE? MY BROTEREM, ECUMENISM IS TAIRING OUR CHURCH TO PIECES. AND
THATS THE REASON THATS THE REASON WHY MOST OF ADVENTISTS DONT BELIEVE IN THE GREAT CONTROVERSY ANY MORE.
GREAT QUOTATIONS!! PRAISE THE LORD!! THE MAJOR REASONS WHY MOST ADVENTISTS DONT BELEIVE THIS ANYMORE IS BECAUSE
A GREAT NUMBER OF OUR PASTORS ARE IN LOVE WITH ROME AND
ARE FLURTING AND HAVE BEEN FLURTING FOR AGES WITH CATHOLICISIM VIA THE ECUMENICAL MOVEMENT AND WE CONNOT DENIE IT.SOME ARE WORRIED THAT THE BOOK WILL
OFFEND PEOPLE. DOESNT THE BIBLE CONTAIN OFFENSIVE WORDS
LIKE " WHORE" ? WHAT WOMAN LIKES TO BE CALLED A WHORE?
THAT. UGLY WORD IS IN THE BIBLE ISNT IT? AND THE BIBLE CALLS A WOMAN A CHURCH A WHORE.TRUE OR FALSE PEOPLE? MY BROTEREM, ECUMENISM IS TAIRING OUR CHURCH TO PIECES. AND
THATS THE REASON THATS THE REASON WHY MOST OF ADVENTISTS DONT BELIEVE IN THE GREAT CONTROVERSY ANY MORE.
TO ALL THE ADVENTISTS OR SO CALLED ADVENTISTS WHOM ARE IN LOVE WITH THE
ANTI- CHRIST( THE POPE), WHO IS THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS OF REVELATION 17? IF
ALL THE PASTORS AND EVEN LAY PEOPLE IN THE SDA CHURCH WHO DONT WANT
THE. BOOKS OF DANIEL AND REVELATION TO BE OPENNED ARE CASTRATING ADVE TISM.
George and Fr Jim,
The book of Revelation opens with the saying "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,. . ."(Revelation 1:1 NKJV)
Be careful who you are against. By opposing the idea that the Papacy is the Antichrist mentioned in the books of Daniel and Revelation, you will be found fighting against the Savior Himself.
The world is very quickly coming to a close. It is not a time to be politically correct. The candy coatings of the last few decades are being removed to show the Biblical truth in it's brilliance. Biblical truth and historical evidence clearly point to the Papacy as the Antichrist of Daniel and Revelation. But in identifying this false power, we can see the contrast. Jesus Christ is leader of our church, not the Pope. We can go directly to Jesus, the High Priest, with our prayers and requests. We don't need anyone in between. We worship our Savior and Creator on His true Sabbath, the Seventh-day, not on the false day of worship promoted by the Roman Catholic Church.
The test is before us as we speak just like it was before Cain and Abel. Are we going to be obedient and do what God asks (righteousness by faith), or are we going to try to bring an offering of man's devising (works).
Faithful Disciple
Thanks, F. Disciple.
Brilliant explanation, full of certainty and knowledge.
And hatred against another religious system as well...
Also great food for thought:
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." --- Buddha
"In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable" (Huxley, Agnosticism, 1889).
Jaime should be told by someone that writing with CAPITAL letters makes the text more difficult to read.
Furthermore, using CAPITAL letters is considered SHOUTING at others, which is very unpolite.
Could someone please tell it to him to educate him on this matter?
You are so right George! Believe it because it is in the Bible.
Faithful Disciple
F. Disciple,
I am not sure you ever read this, but the Bible says that one should LOVE even the enemies.
Do you genuinely LOVE your enemies? ----- (Of course the Catholics & Co. - clearly your enemies, since they are constantly plotting to persecute you, etc.)
Now, please answer this question YES or NO if you will. Don't answer it with another question or a dissertation about some other issue.
YES or NO??? Do YOU love your enemies?
George, a whole hearted YES (all caps for emphasis, not yelling)!
And because I don't want to see any perish, I take seriously the three angel's message of Revelation 14. Do you believe the three angels message George? Do you believe there is a beast? Do believe there is a mark? Do you believe some will perish because they discarded God's message?
Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Revelation 14:6-12 NKJV)
Faithful Disciple
F. Disciple,
I am glad you do love your enemies, including the Catholics & Co.
I am sure Fr. Jim will be delighted reading your declaration of unconditional love.
--------
I asked you if you DO somenthing, and you said YES. Good.
Now you are asking me if I "believe" certain things. What is this? Another chapter of the Inquisition?
The point is not whether I believe in the beast, or so - it's not about me, or about you as persons.
The point is simply how do we treat people that we don't agree with?
Do we throw mud at them, do we just respect them as human beings, do we respect their religious freedon, do we judge them, do we just ignore them, do we persecute them, do we offend them, do we send them the GC book, ....or do we just encourage them to read their BIBLES and develop an unique relationship with God?
And beyond that, it's none of our business. It's God's business!
Why do people keep trying to do what only God can do???
George, keep in mind that you are looking the wrong direction with your use of the word inquisition. That is a word that is so very closely associated with the Roman Catholic Church and executing "heretics" that didn't forsake their pure Bible beliefs for RCC error.
Faithful Disciple
F. Disciple:
"Inquisition" is a process that can become a "fact" anywhere, at any time.
Yes, it happened in the RCC and other communities.
But you know what? Surprise, surprise! It also happened in the SDAC several times. And counting...
You, youserself, have "executed" several people on this forum by often passing judgement on them.
What's worse: Knowning the name of your executors, or being executed by a person that hides behind a nickname?
I personally don't like ghosts. And I always signed my real name underneat whatever I write or say.
But,... that's just me!
The Word of God plainly declares that His law is to be scorned, trampled upon, by the world; there will be an extraordinary prevalence of iniquity. The professed Protestant world will form a confederacy with the man of sin, and the church and the world will be in corrupt harmony. – {2SM 367.3}
Here the great crisis is coming upon the world. The Scriptures teach that popery is to regain its lost supremacy, and that the fires of persecution will be rekindled through the time-serving concessions of the so-called Protestant world. In this time of peril we can stand only as we have the truth and the power of God. Men can know the truth only by being themselves partakers of the divine nature. We have need now for more than human wisdom in reading and searching the Scriptures; and if we come to God’s Word with humble hearts, He will raise up a standard for us against the lawless element. – {2SM 367.4}
Faithful Disciple
Maybe anonymous writers should simply be ignored? Those who fear to use their name should not fear being ignored.
Elaine
Faithful Diciple
If you really took the Three Angel's Messages seriously you would know, of course, that 666 of Rev. 13 carried over to Rev. 14 as the mark of the beast refers to Nero explicitly and any and all who would demand worship or obeisance by either intellectual assent or the product of one's hands. The final beast could well turn out to be joined by the Seventh-day Adventist Church---they already have many of the characteristics of beast like power within their own institutions. Obviously during the Middle Ages the Roman Church was closely linked with the civil rulers. The Church would define heresy and turn the victim over to civil authorities in league with the Church. the Civil authorities would carry out the burning at the stake or other fatal punishment. This was particularly true in Spain and Holland and Belgium under King Philip of Spain.
I know for a fact that local SDA church members called upon civil authorities in the Philipines to take
corporate action against suspected Brinsmeadites by identifying them as communism activists.
I also know as a fact that when the University Church at LLU voted to send a letter to transfer to a brother to a Kentucky Church. A delegation from the LLU who were against the letter flew to
Kentucky Confernece Office and persuaded the Confernce President to visit the church receiving the letter to refuse to accept the letter. Even though the letter was signed by Pastor Paul Heubach..
There is zeal not according to knowledge in all churches. The Seventh-day Adventist Church not excepted..
Certainly we should take the message of Rev. 14 to heart. There is enough beast like quality in each of us to be reprented of. Even from the Son of Thunder and Peter, down through the ages to us.
The SDA church has a short respite between Neal and Ted. I strongly suggest the church put on the helmet of salvation before they get around to purging your congregation.
If you doubt my characterization please read the Russell Standish and Clon Standish's book "The Gathering Storm and the Storm Burst" Or read the broadsides sent out by zealots over then Southern Missionary President and three of the members of the Department of Religion.
That tone is returning in spades from Michigan to California and beyond. We must be reminded the today's terrorism is religion based. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only sure protection from getting involved in a purge mentality now abounding in official circles. "Kill the Sons of Perdition" will soon be the cry. Tom Z.
Faithful D., I see no opposition between being Catholic and following the Pope and following Christ. I see SDA's here who see no problem being SDA and following Christ. In 1843 and 1844 you claimed the world would end soon. Did it? Now you say it again. You should be more careful yourself about who you are following. Like many you deny papal infallibility, but are very sure of your own. By saying you know the day and the hour you claim more authority then any pope ever has. Ironic don't you think? You can worship any day you like, it doesn't bother us. We have more to fear from you given the history of anti-Catholicism in the USA. Believe me if we had the power you think we have there would be no abortion, but you will notice there still is. If we control everything then it is inexplicable how often we are bashed by the worldly powers, who happen to agree with YOU. I, like all Catholics, worship the Most Holy Triune God. Jesus is our Lord and we proclaim it at every Mass. Who do you follow more, Jesus or Ellen White? It seems to me the latter.
Faithful D., a word about the inquisition. Have you ever heard of the many Protestant inquisitions where they executed Catholics and other Christians? It was part of the Reformation you are so proud of.
Jaime, calling the Church a Whore is an insult not just to me but to Jesus. She is the Bride of Christ. You commit blasphemy.
Fr. Jim: Who do you follow more, Jesus or Ellen White? It seems to me the latter.""
You are right on this one.
There are two issues that ADventism can't supress, and they will fight to death at any cost to keep them as denominational fundamentals, in the center of the "adventist message"" :
1) The bogus story about 1844 and the so called Investigative Judgement. (Already properly exposed by Desmond Ford and others)
2) EG White's writings as being at the same (actually above...) level of authority as the Bible. (Already dealt with by many authors in the past)
Well, these ideas don't come from the Bible anyway, they are just part of a cultic mentality.
Other than that, Adventism is a great religion to be part of, especially if one has roots in it and is able to sort things out! I have no problem being a member as long as I am allowed to think and express myself freely - at least on this forum.
(Which the ADventist administration actually doesn't like that much..."Freedom" makes them uncomfortable and threatened! I wonder why?)
Fr Jim,
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (Revelation 17:1, 2 KJV)
You had better take that up with Jesus Christ Himself. It is His Revelation and His choice of words.
Faithful Disciple
Fr Jim.
Who is represented by the fallen woman / harlot in Revelation?
/Bevin
Faithful D., perhaps that is a reference to Ellen White? Have you not drunk the wine of 1844? One thing I have learned is that you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say. A major reason I become a Catholic.
Bevin, I believe it was a reference to paganism. St. John lived during a time of persecution and Christians were being martyred. The good news is that Christ conquered and the pagans began to convert to Catholicism. I see Revelation in the context in which it was written. I don't play numbers games with it or try to find where Bill Clinton fits in or absurdities like that.
A pastor friend of mine recently confided some of his concerns about the copying / plagiarism in the writings of Ellen White to me. I have heard about this before but thought of it more as a fringe group grasping an issue to use against the denomination but given that this pastor is as mainstream Adventist as they come, I started to look into it a little more. There are some here like Peter who have expressed similar views to my pastor friend in this statement:
"Desire of Ages would be great. It was largely written by many great Christian authos and was highly inspired by they (sic) insights and writings!" (Peter. - Fri, 08/26/2011 - 16:25 on this blog)
Doing some basic research on sites like http://www.nonegw.org/rea/sop.shtml, I see that they do some basic side by side comparisons and while I can see the similarities in some, there does not seem to be much difference between what the HuffingtonPost does and what Ellen White is doing. Is there Peter (or anyone else), a breakdown you can point me to online where there are paragraphs of text copied word for word in Desire of Ages and references to where she copied it from?
Fr. Jim
One would think that just one reading of The Acts 5: 1-10 about Ananias and Sapphira would give pause to another playing games in the name of the Lord. Particularly assuming authority reserved to God alone. It seems from my vantage point all churchmen face that same temptation and hid under that same banner. It is the greatest turn off of organized religion in the history of man.
Imagine someone even wrote in that an increase in membership in the SDA church following the distribution of G.C. would be a vindication of the Church and of God. As far back as King David, God advised against taking a census as a measure of success, power, or righteousness.
As Abe said: "You can fool some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time."
That is why Tony Compolo wrote a book on the Red Letter Christians--those that adhered to the words of Jesus as their moral and ethical guidepost.
As one reads the Sermon on the Mount. One reads the Action Plan of Jesus. He fullfilled every jot and tittle of the law. We find our refuge within that accomplishment plus nothing. Having found redemption in the Christ Act, we go forth with similar Grace to serve and witness--not to kill, maime, or assign to hell. To that extent the Church under John XXIII and George Whitfield et al have come a long way" baby". Tom Z.
The Catholic Church has a series coming up on PBS. It is from the Catholicism Project by Fr. Barron. I invite you to watch this 10 part series and hear us tell our story. You will see how we present ourselves in a positive way. Why not hear our side of the story?
You can get a preview at:
http://www.catholicismseries.com/watch/series/catholicism-a-global-epic-...
>>> Bevin, I believe it was a reference to paganism
Rev 12 has a woman giving birth to Christ and fleeing to the wildness
Rev 13 has a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns
Rev 17 has a woman astride this beast, crowned "Babylon", consorting with all the kings of the Earth. The beast, we are told in 17:16 hates her
Rev 18 we find she is destroyed after lots of trade and partying and near to the time of the Bridegroom's return
Personally, I think she represents all organized Christianity...
/Bevin
It would be interesting to have a forum where representatives from different faith traditions could explain their faith, listen to the other side, ask probing questions of one another.
Bevin, so you have been personally inspired by God to understand what is meant and everyone else has been wrong for 2000 years? Oddly I find that hard to believe. The advantage I have is that we have excellent scripture scholars and the magisterium. If you view Revelation in the context in which it was written the explanation, brief as it was, that I gave makes more sense.
Glenn, I think we are doing that at least sort of kind of.
http://catholic-video.blogspot.com/2011/01/catholics-come-home-epic.html
@Inquiring Mind "Is there Peter (or anyone else), a breakdown you can point me to online where there are paragraphs of text copied word-for-word in Desire of Ages and references to where she copied it from?"
From your question I presume that you are not familiar with research over past decades identifying literary dependency in Ellen White's writings. Mrs. White wrote in long hand, often rapidly and quite difficult to read (spelling is bad, grammar incoherent, runs off at an angle and tightly written, etc). Nearly all of these original holograms were destroyed. This is where the copying occurred. These hand written papers were passed to a copyist who typed them out and gave them to the literary assistants. At this point they might even decide that the writing was so poor that it could not be included, so they would take an article that appeared in the Signs of the Times, the Review or Youth Instructor that had been worked up by the literary assistants in submitting copy to the printer. These articles would be redacted (maybe even rewritten, polished some more, etc) into the Desire of Ages chapters or materials being developed. The individuals doing this work were experienced, intelligent, creative writers hired by Ellen White such as Marian Davis (worked for Mrs. White 25 years) and Fanny Bolton (trained as a journalist), etc. Marian Davies had a near perfect memory and she maintained the several scrapbooks of articles that had been published under Ellen White’s name or articles written by others that Ellen White liked and cut out of religious magazines she obtained from the Review office. So if you are expecting to find word for word copying you’ll have to start with the original holograms....and as I mentioned the White Estates claims most of these were destroyed.
Why not start with Fred Veltman's eight-year Desire of Ages project....see the conclusion found in Ministry magazine (Ministry, December 1990)…..if you want to focus on The Desire of Ages. Veltman’s work is highly regard and thorough. He found that Ellen White used a minimum of 23 sources, including fiction in writing The Desire of Ages. You can also go to the General Conference Archives and read the entire report which is more enlightening. You have to be careful from apologetic sources since they tend to shade the interpretation or cover-up certain problems. Another good article written by Douglas Hacklman titled "Ellen White's Habit" was published in the Free Inquiry (Fall 1984). Try to obtain a copy of Ron Graybill's week-long worship talk to the General Conference leaders titled "E.G. White's Literary Work" in November 1981. This is a remarkable presentation to individuals who are wanting to know about what the White Estates has discovered concerning the allegations that Mrs. White did more copying than was known before.
Cheers
tjoe
Thanks tjoe! I am not familiar with much of the research done on her sources. Till this point I have thought of this as mainly work by fringe groups to discredit her and the church. From, the admittedly very basic research I have done, at sites like the one I listed, I have yet to find a compelling case that she copied word for word from others and as I mentioned, it seemed more Huffington Post and less Jason Blair. That said, as the gift of prophecy and Ellen White's prophetic gifts are a central tenant of my faith I think it important to take another look at the issue and when some (like Peter) made the assertion that the Desire of Ages was largely derived from the work of others I was curious as to the credible sources for that statement and will certainly take a look trying to find the sources you have referenced. I'd also be happy to look at any examples of her work though where she is accused of plagiarizing the works of others.
>>> so you have been personally inspired by God to understand what is meant and everyone else has been wrong for 2000 years?
Nope. God gave me a brain instead, so that He would not have to use such a widely claimed and abused mechanism as 'inspiration'.
>>> we have excellent scripture scholars and the magisterium
Let me guess... working for and paid by an organized Christian denomination.
Can you say "conflict-of-interest"?
Furthermore, these were the same experts applying the same processes that concluded the Sun went around the Earth, that rotten meat turns into flies, and that sexual intercourse that can't lead to procreation is a sin.
/Bevin
Fr. Jim,
You might want to read Sigve Tonstad's Book, "Saving God's Reputation", The Theological Function of Pistis Iesou in the Cosmic Narratives of Revelation. This book is a slightly revised version of his doctoral dissertation in New Testament Studies from the University of St Andrews in December 2004.
He contends that the cosmic conflict imagery is the primary and controlling element in Revelation and that the story in Revelation is best understood as a theodicy of God's handling of the reality of evil within the context of the larger biblical narrative.
Richard Ludders
According to Amazon, this book's title is: "The Lost Meaning of the Seventh Day." Is this the book you are referring, Richard?
I find it a noble attempt to rationalize and "Christianize" a Jewish holy day.
But then, that is what Adventists have done--taken much of Judaism and "baptized" it as a Christian, while rejecting other parts of Judaism, very selectively.
Elaine
Despite TJoes description of EGW's writing style she wrote to MANY people who had no trouble reading her writing. Many of her letters are returned to the White Estate upon the death or retirement of their owners. I have seen them.
However he is right that it is quite difficult to preserve her papers through these 150 years. For starters no one thought they would be as sought after as they have become.
Though the detractors claim many are withheld from the public, they are not and some have indeed been forgotten and lost in that time period.
Letters of official import have fared no better as the minutes of the 1919 conference prove. Those found behind a cabinet long decades after the fact.
Michael
There is a higher standard for publication than for simple letter writing. "No problem" understanding her personal letters does not imply that "understanding" is the final criteria for publication.
That she copied ideas, even words from many writers is well known. That she denied having read books that were in her library is also well known. That she introduced her messages with "I was shown" when writing another's words is also well known.
With so much documentation, there is really no excuses necessary. This does not address her thoughts as much as the origin, and that she was deceptive on their origin is too well known to contest.
Elaine
"(3) That it is Satan and not God that pours the seven bowls (Revelation 18) over the wicked."
???
Should that be Revelation 16? And if so, are you saying Satan gives the order to pour out "the seven bowls of God’s wrath"?
Don Tucie
Probing the fallacies
Posted by Donna Haerich - Sun, 08/28/2011 - 18:40
I have a problem with the either/or views on EGW. Views that say Either she was a prophet - believe every word she said or she was not a prophet - discard her.
She was our "window" on the Scriptures - in that 'the way" she wrote was how the bible writers wrote - in their day, in their times, in their words, in their cosmological understanding, in their cultural milieu.
Inadequate and Ill formed ideas as to what a prophet is – and how a prophet wrote - leads to doctrines of infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture - which in turn are overlaid onto EGW much to our detriment.
I agree, Donna.
We'll never know how much Ellen White's mother's loving solicitation when she first fainted while trying to publicly pray influenced her later trajectory, or how much the tenor of the times fed into it. Everything is overdetermined, even, no doubt, our impulse to defend or discard her...or...to chart a more nuanced course. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overdetermination
Someone once said there are two explanations for what we do: the explanation we give and the real explanation (which, I would say, is mostly buried in the mists of the unconscious in all of us).
In any case, it seems that, for whatever reasons, Ellen White was primed for the role of Thundering Old Testament Prophet, and others were primed to see her that way.
So I say, with Donna, let's look at the deeper issue: let's look afresh at the nature of inspiration (as a subject of another blog, though), as the question posed in the present blog is irresolvable.
Adventists like to say that they are carrying forward the Protestant Reformation.
The Shaking of Adventism:
A frequent theme in Adventist writing and speaking is that of forwarding the Reformation. Mrs. White speaks of this as follows: "The Reformation did not, as many suppose, end with Luther. It is to be continued to the close of this world's history Luther had a great work to do... " Indeed, the Reformation did not end with Luther. It will end with the Adventist movement, however—at least as far as the Seventh-day Adventist is concerned. He believes that the challenge from God to be "willing to suffer all things for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ" has come to his movement with unique force.
http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/shaking/1.html
I'll up the ante and challenge Adventists to expand their vision and transcend the Protestant Reformation, which is waxing old like a garment, after 500 years.
This will require a radical revisioning of the nature of inspiration.
Adventists who dismiss/deny/rationalize the problems in EGW should be as generous re: Joseph Smith. Oh, right. That would make them Mormons.
____________________________________________________
"be reverent in behavior, not slanderers nor enslaved to much wine, teachers of that which is good" titus 2:3
->Inquiring Mind - Tue, 08/30/2011 - 13:19
"Is there . . . . a breakdown you can point me to online where there are paragraphs of text copied word for word in Desire of Ages and references to where she copied it from?"
Probably the website that comes the closest to doing what you seem to be asking for is this one by David Conklin, which he calls "An Analysis of the Literary Dependency of Ellen White: We Analyse, You Decide".
http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html
From the introduction to his work on the http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/ front page:
---David Conklin is an independent researcher with a website called "An Analysis of the Literary Dependency of Ellen White". His subhead reads, "We Analyze, You Decide". He notes that people who construct parallel columns for the purpose of showing literary dependence show only the "similarities"... not the "dissimilarities".... sometimes even taking measures to make the similarities stand alone, and out of their context in each of the books being compared. David's site is different in that he puts the whole text in parallel columns, and through an intricate system of color coding shows not only similarities, but dissimilarities, "so that you, the reader can easily come to your own conclusion" as to "whether the critics did a fair analysis, or whether their comparisons actually distorted reality."---
When considering the Fred Veltman materials mentioned by Joe Willey above, it would be well to also take a look at the work done by Kevin Morgan and Marcella Anderson King. Kevin Morgan is a pastor in the Carolina Conference who was closely associated with Veltman for many years before his death, and Marcella Anderson King was Veltman's primary research assistant throughout the 8 years of the Desire of Ages project.
Morgan authored an article entitled "A Quick View of the Life of Christ Research Project (1980-1988)" which is available on-line at http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/white/morgan.htm. This "gives us a look into the way the project operated and how its conclusions were reached. His use of color coding helps explain the different types of "dependency" that Veltman defined and identified. He also helps us understand how the raw data was converted to numerical values."
Morgan and King have co-authored the book, More than Words, which is available through the ABC online.
Bille
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