Print
An Adventist First: Mother and Daughter Pastors
It’s not often that a mother and daughter graduate together from university. More unique still, a mother and daughter being simultaneously employed as Adventist ministers. Indeed, the story of Nancy Chadwick and Christine Chadwick Wallington, who recently graduated together from La Sierra University, is a first.
The two are employed by the Southeastern California Conference of Seventh-day Adventists. Nancy Chadwick serves as associate pastor at the Hemet Adventist Church, and her daughter Christine Wallington has just begun a master’s degree at the Adventist Theological Seminary at Andrews University.
Nancy says that ministry has always been a part of her DNA.
“I grew up helping my mother in children’s ministry in the church and our neighborhood. I went up and down the streets and knocked on doors, asking people if they had any kids. I’d invite them to come to our home for Bible School. In my teens I got involved in Pathfinders and a puppet ministry. I met and dated my husband at La Sierra Academy, and our lives and relationship revolved around doing ministry together. But when it came to choosing a career, my own prejudice against women in ministry kept me from voicing my desire, even to myself,” Nancy recalls.
Believing that women did not belong in the pastorate, Nancy got married and pursued nursing. She worked as a pediatric oncology nurse and raised a family. But attending church became painful, she says, because of a nagging but subverted inclination toward ministry.
Eventually we stopped attending church, and even though I had everything that should have made me happy, I felt dead inside. But God provided a providential crisis that drove me to the point of desperation and to my knees.
After building a dream home and purchasing another property, an economic downturn hit hard, and Nancy feared that the family might land on the streets. That crisis proved a turning point that led to a mid-life career change. Nancy followed what she perceived to be God’s leading, and enrolled in La Sierra’s theology program.
For Christine, the path to ministry was more straightforward.
As I looked at what to do with my life I could not see myself doing anything else for a career except being a leader in the church. My faith walk and my family have influenced me in that choice but I can say confidently that it was God who guided me since the very beginning.
From Classmates to Colleagues
When it came time to pick a place to study, La Sierra University was the obvious choice for both.
“I chose La Sierra because that is where I lived and that is where God opened doors for me,” Nancy says. “My first classes were summer intensives in SDA Theology, Greek and Hebrew. I did a lot of crying and dealing with feelings of inadequacy.”
Nancy committed to doing her best, leaving the results to God. She credits dependence on God with getting her through the program while parenting a small child.
Similar to her decisiveness about pursuing ministry, Christine says, “I never really saw myself on any other campus than La Sierra University. I didn’t even consider going to a different university.”
In 1995 the Chadwick family joined the La Sierra University Church, becoming acquainted with the Webster family (Dr. John Webster is dean of La Sierra’s School of Religion).
“I remember feeling so honored to be in the presence of Dr. Webster,” Christine recounts, “believing so strongly, at age seven, that he compiled Webster’s Dictionary. During college, I felt honored to struggle through Webster’s theology courses. His theological insights replaced my ignorance.
Beyond the theology courses, the most memorable parts of Christine’s time at LSU were freshman orientation (Ignite) week before classes began, and the General Conference Study Tour last summer.
She says, “It was during Ignite that I truly discovered why I chose LSU. During Ignite week I built lasting friendships and I grew from my past, embracing new experiences.”
Nancy recalls the one regular class she took alongside Christine--Gender and the Church.
As I listened to her interaction with the class and professors and had conversations with her, I almost forgot at times that she was my daughter. She is a colleague, a professional...a woman of God. Graduating with her was my greatest joy. I have always felt that if for no other reason than to pave the way and inspire our daughters to answer God’s call in every aspect of their lives, even when that call was counter-cultural, this journey would be worth it all.
“The course on gender was the most interesting,” says Christine. “Our major project was an autobiography, made a lot easier for me with my mother being close by.”
The summer study tour to Atlanta for the 2010 General Conference Session was a highlight for both mother and daughter. Nancy calls the trip “something I will never forget.”
Christine recalls sharing a bunk bed at the Cumberland Academy dormitory and leaving husbands at home during the study tour.
“We enjoyed deeper theological conversations as we both recognized where we might differ on a few issues but complement each other on others. Of course graduating together was a real privilege that I will always treasure. For me it was like honoring my mother’s influence in my journey while we walked together just before we both had to let go and move forward.”
“I continue to be amazed at the level of education I received,” Christine says of her time at La Sierra. “To have highly influential and intellectual leaders pass on their understandings, honest struggles, and pure faith to us… I can only explain it as Dr. Maury Jackson has put it: ‘It is like heaven on earth.’”
Ministering as Women
“The biggest negative that I had to overcome was myself,” Nancy says of the challenge of pastoring as a woman. “My culture caused me to see women pastors in a very negative light.”
Paradoxically, she describes feeling a strong call to ministry for as long as she can remember, and often wondered why God would create her with an inner conflict between being female and wanting to minister. But she quickly adds that she has had a positive experience as a woman minister overall.
Though only newly hired as a pastor, Christine calls her experience in ministry “blessed.”
“I have always been accepted and given an opportunity to minister,” she says, noting that only recently, and mostly outside of her congregation, has she felt any resistance from those who object to lady pastors.
Within the church I believe there have been those who only silently resisted or disagreed with a woman’s call to ministry, but interestingly enough disassociating me from ‘women pastors.’ I believe there is this overall concept of ‘women in ministry’ being rejected rather than the actual reality.
At the General Conference last summer, one gentleman encouraged me to say ‘no’ to God if the Lord was calling me to be a pastor. Most recently I have had to deal with the reality of what being a minority means in the community of pastors. Yet the positives strongly outweigh the negatives as I have had young women share their stories with me. I have had the joy of seeing a young woman follow God’s call in her life--she is now studying to become a pastor.
To Women Considering Ministry
“In my own experience people should not pursue ministry unless they can’t see themselves doing anything else,” Nancy says. “That’s the mark of a calling. For 20 years I worked as an RN at Loma Linda University. I was good at it and it was ministry. I begged God to let me find fulfillment there. Life was so much easier there. The pay was so much better there, but it always felt like a job and not a calling or even a career. Ministry in the church pursues you; your calling from God must be so strong that it transcends the negativity from the outside, even against all odds. Otherwise, do something else.”
“Be confident in God’s call in your life,” Christine adds.
You are a pastor because that is who you are and once you recognize this, simply be who God has made you to be. Never allow the counsel of others to discourage you, but rather encourage you to find areas in which you may grow with God.
Go through the Bible and read over the call of all the prophets, and the call of the disciples, and even the judges. Consider some of the themes and purposes in which these men, and women, were called. Apply these to your own journey and recognize how much resistance these God-led leaders faced. You will hear that it will take a long time before women will ever be accepted as pastors, that it took 100 years before slavery was abolished, but the reality is that change is not made through waiting; change is made when we stand for that which is good.
Photo Credit: Jolene Bearden / Wedding By Photo
User login
Recent
- WC Kinship International Responds to British Union Conference Statement on Same-Sex Marriage
- victor Kinship International Responds to British Union Conference Statement on Same-Sex Marriage
- Rescued LSU Responds to Biology Professor Lee Greer
- Defender of THE Faith Kinship International Responds to British Union Conference Statement on Same-Sex Marriage
- Roger S The Dark Fantasy World of Walter Veith
- Maggie Ethics, Evolution, and Ben Carson
- George Tichy Pacific Union Conference Calls Special Constituency Meeting to Authorize Equality in Ordination
- Maggie Ethics, Evolution, and Ben Carson
- dl LSU Responds to Biology Professor Lee Greer
- Pagophilus Kinship International Responds to British Union Conference Statement on Same-Sex Marriage
Newsletter
Organizations
Sat, 09/08/2012
|
San Diego Adventist Forum
Sigve Tonstad, MD, PhD, Associate Professor of Religion, Loma Linda
University
Current Issue
Not yet a subscriber? Subscribe today!
Bravissime!
Jared, appreciate your article!
RE:"At the General Conference last summer, one gentleman encouraged me to say ‘no’ to God if the Lord was calling me to be a pastor.'
Yes, we women have to grow up and become who our Father in heaven has called us to be rather than those who believe themselves in power over us. When someone tells us not to listen to God, we must learn to recognize the agenda of God's enemy even if it is disguised as church authority.
I appreciate what Nancy says about a calling. When God calls, He also enables us.
God bless both of you in your ministry! You are an inspiration to me and many others!
Love the story!
John 4 is pretty clear; the first evangelist, and phenom at that,
was the woman at the well of Sychar. Interesting she was not from the General Conference,
but worshiped at Gerazim. Interesting that her name, from the Orthodox tradition...
means "equal to the apostles".
When she propositioned that potential 6th and better husband, wayfaring stranger...
(at the well where Jacob became betrothed to Rachel)
though she had no clue who He was, soon would never forget;
though she had admitted "the well is deep, and you have no cup";
though she had sought her satisfaction with 5 different husbands;
though not even being officially married to #5;
the One Husband (that would never divorce her) said:
"you are my cup; now, go back to your husband, and dip; tell your story..."
The prickly issue of ordination rears its head again. Will we ever "get it"?
Good enough for Jesus should be good enough for the GC, too.
Question your certainties as much your doubts;
an unquestioned truth is mere varnished falsehood.
Doubt not the strength of the faith given you; dare question.
While this article begs for sympathy, pls don't forget that the hidden political agenda here is mainly focused solely on campaigning for “Women Pastoring” approval-which is unbiblical. Today there must be a lot of full time female Gospel workers (paid/unpaid) in almost all of the Adventist Churches in more than 227 countries around the world. But we never heard them to complaint for not becoming Pastors. Those females simply stating that they still can preach and teach The Everlasting Gospel. What else?
However, our God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim. 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure.
Oh, you may ask… But doesn't this teaching belittle Women?
No, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt. 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them.
Does the wife's submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior.
All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up AN ORDERr the same way he set one up in the FAMILY!!!. The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children.
"While this article begs for sympathy, pls don't forget that the hidden political agenda here is mainly focused solely on campaigning for “Women Pastoring” approval-which is unbiblical."
Encouraging women pastors is part and parcel of the Spectrum agenda. And the statement you made is excellent but will be gainsaid undoubtedly by the libs. You can count on that. Hopefully the current SDA administration will bring us back eventually to what is the Biblical pattern as well as its instruction about male headship.
So, it's true then that women pastors DO NOT have the same rights, privileges and responsibilities as men pastors? If this is so, weak. Another reason with my disenchantment with the SDA org and why my "tithe" goes only to the local church as local expense!
Dear Jct, officially the worldwide SDA church only follows what the Bible says. So due to your 'disenchantment', you need to protest of what are written in the Bible--and not to blame the SDA organization. Fair enough?
Again...in Asia, Europe, Africa, and many other parts of the world there are many successful Adventist ladies that are now in important leadership in Banking industries, political, educations, and even in United Nations. However their disagrement upon "Female Pastoring" has NOTHING to do w/ certain opinions nor arguments, but it's only because "Thus said the Lord....."
Let's go back to the Bible and the Bible alone, dear friends (if you want).
But as for me and my family, we will follow the Bible--not Spectrum's. Sorry!
Thanks for an inspiring "human interest" story. Knowing these two women as I do, I know God is continuing to lead in their lives and it is exciting to see their ministry develop before our eyes. I feel very fortunate to live in an enlightened conference that honors and supports whomever God calls, regardless of gender. And I feel very blessed to be on a campus where Bible and science, correctly interpreted, continue to yield to the leadership of Jesus Christ. We take seriously Gamaliel's NT counsel.
I'm torn on this issue. As a man I used to adamantly hold the position that women were not to be pastors. Scripture definitely outlines an order that has the man before the woman. We're taught to place precept upon precept to get an accurate scriptural understanding, including taking time and circumstance into account.
The pastoral debate is second to the issue of the sancity of marriage. Until a few generations ago the man was the clear "bread winner" in the home. Now it's become common place to have the woman equal or out-earn the man and/or no man is in the picture. Women now take on responsibilities once delegated to the man. Pastoral ascent of women is but a component of a larger trend. There are circumstances in these end times where women have no choice but to take the lead. In Luke 19 Jesus said the stones would cry out if need be (v 40). This should beg the question "where are the men?"
. I still feel it is best if a family is intact with the man as the head leading his family in the direction God is calling but at the same time let's be honest and admit that women have been the ones in the home, school and Sabbath school that have largely laid the foundation for our upbringing. Does this justify women to be pastors? I don't know. What I do know is that men generally need to be respected and it can get very "dicey" when women take the reign of authority.
Based on what happened with the lawsuit against the SDA church for equal pay I do not beleive the SDA church will be able to deny women the right to preach in the long run and so you assume it will become more common place in the future. The church will certainly continue to feel pressure to not be perceived as discriminatory and lose too many memberships. I think women will have to be very careful and ask themselves, is this truly best for the church and/or me?
Dear Brothers (you Sisters should just ask your husbands to explain the rest of this post to you):
It is with great concern that I read of the female "pastors." It seems that although the SDA Church has chosen not to ordain women (as supported by the Bible), it fails to follow God's clear instructions about female deportment.
For example, at the 2010 General Conference World Assembly, on Thursday, June 24, Raquel Arrais was a co-speaker with Mark Finley. You can imagine how concerned I was at this seeming apostasy! After all, god commands us in 1 Cor 14 to worship in good order and that women must not speak in church. I realize that this meeting was on a Thursday and not held in a church, but nowhere does Paul say "church on Sabbath," and we know that wherever and whenever the brethren gathered to share in the spirit, he would have considered it church.
This was the "Spiritual Emphasis" session--which indeed sounds like church to me. I then Googled this Raquel Arrais and looked at pictures of her. I was shocked! Although god states in 1 Cor 11 that women must have long hair. Miss Arrais has short! How can this be, brethren?
Some of the pictures were of her speaking behind a podium. I noticed that not only does she flaunt short hair, but she doesn't wear a hat as god commands in 1 Cor 11. All this at an official General Conference meeting.
Brethren, this church is so lost, so unbiblical, that we might as well ordain women! Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve: the ungodly practices of women's equality in the world or the clear commands of god in the bible! Keep the women off the podium and silent. Let them ask their husbands to explain things to them at home. Then we will finally be a bible believing church that lives its truth!
Yours in the way,
John Elder
I am gay, and have known it from a young age. Like the woman pastor mentioned above, from a young age I have experienced the call of God in my life, repeatedly, to be a pastor. God has called and called, and no matter the spiritual practices or prayers he has not made me straight. So many by their words and attitudes have also told me to say no to God's call - which seems strange when we are told that to resist the call of God is to renounce God and begin the road of walking away from God. In spite of having said no to God, and having massive conflicts about that inside, I finally decided that no matter what anyone says or does, I will respond to the call of God and say Yes! So I have. No one will ordain me, but God has and I wear that ordination humbly and with great delight. No one pays me to do the pastoral work that I do, but I know I am walking in the path of what God has called me to, and no one will ever stop it.
I applaud these women in hearing and accepting God's call, regardless of so called "Friends" and "ProWomen" above and their like my say, think or do. When God calls let no one stand in the way. We choose not to be Jonahs and run away. We choose to listen to God and accept the challenge. For some of us it is harder than others, unfortunately, but we will be pastors regardless of the ordination of men, because we know we have the ordination that really counts and that is the ordination of the Almighty!
"What I do know is that men generally need to be respected and it can get very 'dicey' when women take the reign of authority."
This is probably the most telling (and pathetic) statement of the entire issue surrounding this conversation of women pastors. The cause of the conflict is illuminated by this statement, as is the solution for any rationally thinking and moderately inquisitive person.
John Elder,
Your tongue-in-cheek post is funny, but also scary because I've literally read hog-wash like that posted in all seriousness as genuine sentiment.
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
Dear Brother Peter,
Indeed, when God calls, it's good to follow His leading. Many times in my practice God has prompted me to say something to a patient, and I have resisted, fearing embarrassment or crossing a boundary. Yet, without exception, heeding God's call has led to miracles of spiritual healing and whole person recovery.
When God calls let no one stand in the way. We choose not to be Jonahs and run away. We choose to listen to God and accept the challenge. For some of us it is harder than others, unfortunately, but we will be pastors regardless of the ordination of men, because we know we have the ordination that really counts and that is the ordination of the Almighty!
Amen & amen. And those who do not recognize the ordination lose out on the blessings God planned to give them through you. It's sad, really, very sad.
Sabbath blessings,
John Elder
Geraty- "And I feel very blessed to be on a campus where Bible and science, correctly interpreted, continue to yield to the leadership of Jesus Christ. "
This must be a joke -- a campus where science is correctly interpreted. This has been shown over and over and over not to be the case. Pretty sad situation waiting to be corrected.
I am a very satisfied La Sierra student and a parent of a student at La Sierra. I highly recommend the campus community and learning. I'm tired of people who don't agree with it and don't like it trying to control what isn't theirs.
Congratulations Nancy and Christine! Well done!!
"It may not be on the Mountain's Height,
Nor over the Stormy Sea.
It may not be on the Battle Front,
My Lord may have need of me.
But if, by a still small voice, he calls,
To Paths that I do not know,
I'll answer, 'Dear Lord, with my hand in Thine,
I'll go where you want me to go.' "
=
EXCEPT -- if I'm female and God calls me into SDA Ministry.
Your Friend: "Hopefully the current SDA administration will bring us back eventually to what is the Biblical pattern as well as its instruction about male headship."
You must be kidding us! What this administration is more likely to do is to impose "Tedspotism" in Adventism governance.
And you are right, it' means going back. Back to the 1950 or worse! But there is a potential side effect to that: a real split in the church. Just watch.
Your Friend: "This must be a joke -- a campus where science is correctly interpreted. This has been shown over and over and over not to be the case. Pretty sad situation waiting to be corrected."
This statement is deadly WRONG and ABSURD!
La Sierra University is a respectable university where both religion and science are treated properly. All these feroucious (but futile) attacks against LSU are just the product of bias, narrow mindedness, and retrograde thinking. Lack of proper perception of reality leads to delusional comments that do not address reality.
I bet LSU's enrollment will continue to increase substantially due to the progressive and realitic approach that permeates the campus. Real issues correctly interpreted. Teaching students to THINK by themselves rather than to just repeat others' points of view. No brainwashing, but rather intellectual freedom.
AND THIS IS A PROBLEM! I have noticed throughout the years that Adventism has always been afraid of people who THINK freely and of those who ask questions. I bet it is because they can't be just easily controled; they refuse to be intellectually castrated. Thus, they represent a "danger", a "threat" to those who utilize despotism (now upgraded to...TEDspotism) to maneuver the crowds.
If I had children at college age, I would certainly encourage them to go to this type of school, and not to a place where they would be just brainwashed and denied full access to information.
Welcome to the 21st Century!
I am a proud father of two LSU graduates.
John Elder:
The interesting (and sad) thing about your post is that it fits perfectly both sides of the spectrum. Some will read it as a good piece of a joke, others will say, "Yes, this is my guy, he describes the church as I think it should be."
Good job!
ProWomen n Bible:"The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children."
It seems that some people may become so obcesed with this "machismo" in the church that they even forget that GOD THE FATHER exists!!!! (At least I don't see any mention to Him on the "chain of command" above!)
So many men just love the word "command", isn't it? It's oftem a problem of low self-esteem, and since they can't throw their insanity on other men they utilize the abusive mechanism of commanding women to be submissive to them. Pure "machismo"! Has nothing to do with religion or Biblical principles. It's just an EGO issue. A defective EGO, unfortunately!
@ "your friend"
AAA gave their sanction and accreditation; curriculum, credentials were not found wont.
It is these baseless allegations (in a thread not about this, even)
that demonstrates all-too-common contemptuous prejudice prior to investigation.
Theology, the science of humanity knowing God, began with Adam, nomothete, first scientist, botanist, naturalist, horticulturalist. By design, nature was first scripture.
God has always spoken to man in terms man can touch, see, feel, imagine and question.
Man has tried not to see...yet even these stones will cry out. Written into all creation is evidence, that no man has excuse.
That the only SDA university conducting research (LSU) was kidnapped without cause and held for ransom by a conflict constructed by disgruntled student and former staffer is sad testament to the damage caused by forces of evil speaking, baseless gossip, is unfortunate, but perhaps completely intentional and expected.
Truth requires, nay, she demands, scrutiny.
Just as with the nonsensical basis of denying ordination along gender lines is, I believe not scriptural and ethically/morally unsupportable; honest, truth-seeking dialog itself is sadly seemingly not possible.
Historical cultural local context of not counting women (or slaves) in census (or as autonomous) in times past is no evidence. Indicting man (gender), however; only in the last 100 years have we begun to balance the rights inherent to EVERY human irrespective of gender/race/status/"ism". Is this not requisite for free moral agency to be established as the final stage of this sin-experiment ? Is this God doing a type of "social science", and showing himself, and his creation, worthy? Hmmm... nevertheless it will need not be repeated, as His truth will withstand the hypothesis, and refute the charges of the deceiver.
Trusting truth, and seeking it, wherever it lays...
is far different than proving one already has it. Fearing to test is is admission of doubt.
Second, seems man (gender and perhaps race) has blurred the definition of "husband",
given dominion (not domination).
Question your certainties as much your doubts;
an unquestioned truth is mere varnished falsehood.
Doubt not the strength of the faith given you; dare question.
John Elder and Peter S.,
I really appreciated your posts. Continue walking in God's grace.
Professor Kent
Professing Christ until the whole world hears
And once again, all the little sexist comments come in to try to destroy the very calling these women felt. It amazes me that Adventists continue to be so sexist on this issue when their very founder was a WOMAN.
Once again, this shows how Adventists will take verses in the Bible and not even think of them in their historical context and just blindly apply them to modern times. Truly sickening. Paul declared that women should not speak in church only in the Corinthians. And why did he do this? Well, for one, other pagan churches were known for their women being quite rowdy because they were well having sex.
Paul, naturally, didn't want the Christian churches in the area to be associated with that kind of behavior, so he encouraged the women to be silent in church. Not to mention the fact that the women of those times were likely not educated at all, and thus would not be informed enough to teach other people. Paul rarely encouraged people to go against the culture so as the Christian church would not be viewed as some counter culture movement and face the wrath of the Roman Empire.
Times change, ole boys. Better get used to it.
Oh, and by the way, I am a man, not an angry feminist as some might be inclined to call me.
To all those who endorse a position contrary to Biblical injunctions take a look at
http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article.php?id=7
I wonder how many will actually read material at that site and seriously consider it.
To Pyalie:
You took an excerpt of what I posted and made a rather rude reply. The "respect" issue is a factor in the church and in relationships and needs to be discussed. Surely we can dialog in a civil tone as people would expect from Christians?
"What I do know is that men generally need to be respected and it can get very "dicey" when women take the reign of authority"
Why not "Women generally need to be respected?" Especially for most of history, and stil the rule in half the world that women are given very little, if any respect--that is unless they question men's authority.
Women have had to bear many burdens, including the bearing of children, and now that childbearing is only a small portion of their longer lifespan, they have been forced to carry the burden, with or without men, for supporting the family. And many have proved to be very adequate to that task. To allow the Bible to dictate how we should operate in our daily lives cannot be in only one area but must be everything: women stay hidden in the home and draw the water, grow and harvest the crops and care for the children while men go out to hunt, a very limited occupation. "Man works from sun to sun, a woman's work is never done. She is proving to be most efficient at doing many things and to suggest limitations solely because of her gender is failure to recognize that the church has been kept alive throughout the centuries by women. Simply look over your own congregation to determine if the women do not outnumber the men.
Elaine
brother Peter,
May I ask a question? ...before I get to the question I want to say too often the homosexual issue causes supporters and opponents to have nasty exchanges. I'm saying up front I do not want to have an ugly exchange. If you can I want to hear from you a rationale for scripture that I have yet to hear on this subject from supporters. I am asking to understand a viewpoint that has always baffled me.
It has always been clear to me that scripture has been very specific with warnings against the homosexual lifestyle. It does not appear that GOD wants us to interact in this manner & continuing to act out this lifestyle negatively impacts one's chance at salvation. Yet, many homosexuals usually say something equivalent to "GOD made me this way, GOD loves us all, GOD is alright with this etc." I have never heard a supporter go straight to Romans or other texts and give an analysis of why the consensus interpretation of these scriptures is inaccurate. Can you be text specific on the subject and share why we should see scripture differently?
A lot of the biblical verses that people use to back up their arguement regarding Woman Pastors and woman's position in the church are being taken out of context. We live in a world were woman can minister as effectively as men, and in some countries in this world only the women attend church (would make for a terrible service if they weren't allowed to talk).
Lets not forget that Ellen White was a woman and she certainly did not remain silent in church.
I wish these two ladies every blessing in their ministry, and I know that God will use them to do great things.
Again, one segment of statement is being locked in on. In the same post I also said:
"but at the same time let's be honest and admit that women have been the ones in the home, school and Sabbath school that have largely laid the foundation for our upbringing."
Despite the popular "sun to sun...work is never done" phrase you make a few valid points. What I'm trying to get on the table for discussion w/o people going in attack mode is whenever there is friction with harmoneous interaction between our two genders with respect to roles the "respect" issue always surfaces. Yes, women should be equally respected. I did not infer that they(you) shouldn't. I stated it that way because the issue is women starting to fulfill a role that was once an all but exclusive male position.To be fair, like "some" men, not all women have lived up to their responsibilities.
You mentioned the ratio of men vs women in the church. In the same post I also asked the question, "where are the men?"
onelson,
I called the statement pathetic, and not because you made it, but because it illuminates the pathetic truth that when mens' authority is perceived to be challenged things get "dicey", as you said. I stand by my statement. This pathetic reality needs to be changed.
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
"Where are the men"? If they are in the church, they are usually only with their gender up on the pulpit or teaching a SS class.
The rest of the men won't be found in most churches. Ask the men who aren't in church and their wives are, why they are not also there?
Elaine
Jared, you seem to have two hobby horses, the ordination of women and homosexual marriage. As an SDA pastor, do you speak about the nearness of the Jesus' second coming, the judgement that is going on in heaven right now, the need to evangelize, the mark of the beast, and other critical subjects? Where can we hear your sermons on these topics?
Faithful Disciple
Great question Elaine. We need the men to come back to the church and lead their families to get ready for Jesus' soon coming!!
Faithful Disciple
We need the men to come back and take over their rightful place.
Up front and leading everything.
Women are generally known to be overworked and need the Sabbath off so they can not have to do anything but turn up. Let the men lead the children's Sabbath Schools, decorate the church, do the flowers, greet everyone...
Women are generally known to talk much more than men, so they can give their vocal chords a rest and leave the men to do all the talking while they are silent in church.
The women mostly have made all the meals all week, so the men could go home and prepare all the Sabbath meals, and the shared lunches after church could be catered for by the men and all the cleaning up and doing the dishes could be done by the men too.
Yay! Let's see all the men who proclaim men's inherent right to spiritual leadership and respect for women stop all the hot air of opinion and put it into action!! Unfortunately we'll soon see that it is mostly hot air not godly action...
How about, the men should come back to church and SET A GOOD EXAMPLE FOR their families.
No doubt, patriarchal conservatives are saying, "Only in California." And much as Paul hints in Galatians 3:28 that many of the discriminatory standards of Old Testament times have no place in the Christian culture, as in, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus," I still imagine him turning in his grave.
Don Tucie
Could it be that faith simply ought not to be rational?
There is not 'Thus said the Lord" when it comes to women leadership. There is not Bible text proibiting women from becoming pastors. Omission is not "thus said the Lord." if that is the case then we will be introuble theologically because many things we do today has not examples in the Bible but we are certain they are "Biblical.' Joel 2:38 is sufficient for me. 'The holy spirit falls on both men and women to preach." Come on, let's move forward. We need more women pastors. Take part in my survey at http://www.soencouragement.org/ordination/index.htm
onelson, without getting too far off course here, let me ask you a question, (or two)
quoting
""It has always been clear to me that scripture has been very specific with warnings against the homosexual lifestyle. It does not appear that GOD wants us to interact in this manner & continuing to act out this lifestyle negatively impacts one's chance at salvation.""
Keep reading; the very passage you cite has admonishments against behaviors seemingly ALL humans do. What do we do with rest of the chapter? Malice, gossip, vanity, deceit et al are endemic, it seems, to the human condition; the selfsame punishment is called for. Why do we stop at v 27 and park there, as if it were the final word on most abominable of iniquities? Seems there is something more to this. Dare we take off the constricting and narrow eyepiece, and broaden our field of view?
Before i can proudly say "I am not homosexual" (and then say "they" are not my brother, nor I his keeper), seems God has already said a whole lot more of other things that I AM!
The other question; perhaps God is really saying do not use the one-flesh covenant (or any of its "counterfeits", ie "onanism", homosexuality, adultery, fornication, perhaps even "abstinence"...etc etc) for selfish purposes.
Perhaps result of our human desire to proudly proclaim self innocent (of that one specific and narrow definition) and to parse it down and dissemble the letter of the law, losing the entire spirit and intent of it. Perhaps...many heterosexual marriages-even within the church broader, and our church specific- fails this test of human sexuality. Consider, God uses this very specific example as a "daily palpable parable", a living example as an indication of the oneness He desires man to enter into with Him. This view tends to lend an entirely different landscape to what Gods divine intention was to give Adam a first gift, sanctified and made holy, right there before the celebration of relationship, "the honeymoon" (which happens to fall on the 7th day).
That the one-flesh covenant is the first reference we have of God giving man a framework to understand covenant (and the second reference to "husbandry"- the garden was the first)
perhaps, as a blessing-that we subsequently have taught is a "human nature" or "animal-like" curse suggests our urge to merge has rather broad and deep spiritual inclinations. Ones we are quick to not even question, but keep in the darkness, under the covers, behind closed doors, "because the marriage bed is holy and undefiled".
Perhaps man "dominating woman" (and the garden)
and NOT taking proper DOMINION is the issue, and points to a gender-based selfishness
that took some half dozen or more millenia for God to allow to correct vis a vis human rights and free moral agency for each through democracy. Perhaps man still tries, via force, to dominate, and abdicates his God-given dominion...
God respects fully autonomous choice of man despite race, gender, status, heritage, religion, culture...why does man not? This, seems to me, borders blasphemous, indeed, that man might usurp role of God thus. Perhaps man (general, and gender-specific use here) is afraid to lose his selfish grasp of power (which then relegates sexuality to something far less than a spiritual metaphor and a oneness on many levels). On the other side of the coin, perhaps Eve is a little to eager to redress the millenia of maltreatment...and has also accepted the counterfeits of use of the one-flesh covenant for smaller gods (sounds like what man has also done, no?)
Nevertheless, refusal to approach and dialog each other (on sexuality, as much as any other issue like ordination, role of science in explaining creation in its terms, deed-and-doctrine vs identity) without the attacks and stilted and tiresome pseudo-defenses shall surely prolong the final withdrawal of the Hand that made us, whose Heart desperately desires oneness with us, and amongst ourselves.
"Father (heart, identity, relationship)
forgive them (salvation)
for they KNOW not (doctrine)
what they DO (deed)."
Salvation, despite doctrine and deed?
Forgiveness only on identity (i'm a sinner, daddy, your son...)
Dare i stand on i KNOW, and i DO(or do not)...? This sounds like a certain "mark";
is the "seal of my adoption" on my heart?
That is only evident when i rest in relationship with who, and whose, I am,
and love all my brothers, enemies, strangers, widows, orphans all
Question your certainties as much your doubts;
an unquestioned truth is mere varnished falsehood.
Doubt not the strength of the faith given you; dare question.
Hi Elaine,
Why not "Women generally need to be respected?"
Indeed, why not? When men dominate societies the struggle with poverty, ill health, infant mortality, and unacceptable death rates in childbirth. The intervention that has been shown over and over again to raise people's standard of living it to educate girls. When girls are educated at least as much as boys, life changes for the better. When boys are educated in poor areas, they take that education in search of higher incomes. When women are educated they improve their lives and their villages.
It took male and female both to be in God's image. It is so astounding that the very people who wish to have a literal reading of Genesis 1 & 2 are often those who wish to exclude half of God's image from the pulpit.
Brightest blessings,
John Elder
While a daughter mother combo grad is certainly a curiosity, the larger question dealing with the issue of people doing things because they felt called to be pastors........there are only a few possible conclusions.
A. There is the aspect that if one feels called, he is called.
Certainly the bible is replete with examples and suffice it to say that just because you "feel" it doesn't make it so.
B. There is already a plethora of unemployed seminary graduates. There are only so many positions even if money were no object. So both the positions available and the positions able to be paid for play NO ROLE or correlation to the number graduating seminary.
C. If one takes at face value that God actually called everyone with a seminary degree to ministry then perhaps it is their definition of ministry they were called to that is their cerebral misfire. Maybe ministry doesn't mean a full time paid position with subsidized tuition for the kids and benefit package. Maybe it means being a self supporting missionary or working at a soup kitchen or a hundred other things that the laity do all without ceremony or framed certificate.
Michael
And maybe the impulse to tell people what they are or are not called to be or to do is indicative of "cerebral misfire."
Hi Michael,
There are many faith traditions where it is wrong to accept more than a token for providing for a community's spiritual care. Many faith traditions their shepherds to actually have a skill that allows them to participate in the work of the community, as well.
Nevertheless, this has nothing to do with whether or not women are called to the ministry, the same as men are. If it didn't anger me so, I would be very entertained by the intellectual gyrations required on the part of those who 1) interpret "literally" the "clear" word of god and 2) insist that such interpretation requires women not to be ordained (or to preach or to ...) and 3) Then turn around and explain why this doesn't apply to EGW. It would be truly funny if their prejudice weren't turning away those whom God has called.
Look at what a mess the male ministry has made of the church. Women in the pulpit couldn't possibly make it worse.
Bright blessings,
John Elder
Freddy
Unfortunately you offer no intelligent insight into the dycotomy between those who either have already gone through the seminary without finding a job or those who currently are, knowing there are far more graduates than jobs.
Perhaps you are suggesting a 4th path, that of full employment. If one feels called to the ministry all they need to do is go through the seminary and when they graduate they are guaranteed a job for life.
Michael
JohnElder
In the case of Seminary graduates who feel they are "called" to be Pastors, it applies equally to both men and women, the same dynamics apply.
What is your explanation of the discrepancy between those who feel called and the number of positions open?
If you have insight into more than the 4 variables currently mentioned, I would enjoy hearing about it.
Michael
A great story of a mother and daughter following what they believe that God is calling them to!
I, for one get tired of the "good ole boy's club" that is the hierarchy of the Adventist church in general. I also wholeheartedly agree with the other commenter that the men haven't always done such a great job and that the women couldn't do any worse!
I do tire of the ceaseless references to scripture that some claim proves that women should not be ministers, etc! I am a reasonably intelligent woman that believes in the message of the SDA church but do NOT interpret these same texts to prove that women cannot be pastors. I have yet to read anything else that has convinced me otherwise.
But what I really resent is that woman are for the most part kept out of the administrative posts ( i.e. positions of power) because they cannot be ordained in most of the international church. We really can't be full participants within the church when this is the case and anything else that runs contrary to this is just lip service!
Kim
These two women, as all other ones who felt called to the ministry should be given the same opportunity as it's given to any male. And at the right time, they should be ordained to the ministry as any other male would be.
Years ago I saw the Certificate of Ordination of ELLEN G. WHITE online. Since I can't find my file from those days, I just Googled it, and voilá:
http://www.fortunecity.com/millennium/lincoln/666/pastor-ellen/
So, why are some people still arguing about this issue? Ellen White's ORDINATION TO THE MINISTRY is the end of any controversy on this issue, isn't it?
Pyalie,
I didn't think you made the reference specifically to me. I may be over reacting to your choice of words. When I read your post it comes off as having a lot of frustration behind it. I will not even try to pretend I have a clue to what you may have experienced during your time in the church. I will say that as a black male I've spent my life trying to understand why certain imbalances continue in the chruch and world. Maybe instead of just saying this "pathetic" reality needs to be changed you could give an example or two of how women will use their leadership skills to improve areas of weakness in the church/home/world that us men have failed to address?
Elaine,
I meant the question to be rhetorical. Since you've responded (with what I assume are your personal observations and not some specific statistical report?) let me add: Women also have their own little groups in the church. The church encourages male and female bonding in the form of many men and women fellowship groups. I mentioned this in another post but as a black male I've known the frustration of imbalance. My former church fit your analysis to a tee, my current church seems to have a better balance. I've been teaching youth classes for a number of years and I have to concur that our young men are harder to keep in the fold than our young women. As for the wives w/o spousal support: I assume some are widowed, married to non-Adventist and/or Christian men.....and some have spouses who are not living up to their duty. A better question may be "how do we get us men back in the church?"
heartseeker,
I HAVE read the entire text(s) with respect to the issue. The obvious difference between the sexual orientation issue and the other human tendencies mentioned is that we do not seek to justify or uplift those other tendencies. No one in any church that I know of is saying that malice, gossip, adultry, stealing, coveting, vanity etc, are tendencies to admire and even adopt if the spirit moves you.
You posted " Before i can proudly say "I am not homosexual" (and then say "they" are not my brother, nor I his keeper), seems God has already said a whole lot more of other things that I AM!" .........I never said anything of the sort. I continue to be mystified to these type reactions whenever the issue is raised...without malice. I beleive we are ALL brothers and sisters.
GOD has allowed us the freedom of choice, without which there could have been no rebellion in Heaven. Let's also be reminded that consequences do come with certain decisions.Your post seeks to identify those who adhere to scripture on the issue as feeling we have a leg up. I can only speak for myself and say that isn't how I feel. Mrs. White has also outlined very definitive guidelines for sexual intercourse and I am sure that many of us are not 100% in compliance, but I we also aren't adopting the Woodstock movement and hiding behind the "GOD is love" shield so that we can do as we please w/o rebuttle.
A question for you: Whether we agree with it or not gay marriage appears well on its way to becoming legal in this country. If/when we get to a point where our homosexual brethren petition the church to bless their union will you support the request?
"...give an example or two of how women will use their leadership skills to improve
areas of weakness in the church/home/world that us men have failed to address?"
Not that there aren't any (for there are many) but need there be any to recognize
the equality of the God-in-us and thus the hubris of ignoring or suppressing a God-call?
For how long will the church commit that sin of sins - frustrating the Holy Spirit by
suppressing the call of God on women?
---
edit: "thus the hubris of ignoring or suppressing"
---
1 Corinthians 13:13
Onelson, sorry, seems I was not clear.
My comment was not about slippery antinomianism slope; only about how we, as a church, cling to certain, seeming arbitrary, and too specific little things, missing the broader. Regarding whether we "admire and adopt" (homosexual lifestyle choice vs any others in the "list" in Romans)-misses the point and hoists a false flag. My point was NOT judging the values; scripture abundantly clear that I cannot support "gay marriage"-in a legal challenge, given present culture, it may become inevitable.
Not sure if i should answer your question given absence of your direct answers to my queries!
My observation is that whenever the topic of gender biased ordination is raised, the very next breath says "next, we will be asking to ordain homosexuals..."
and so I ask...is everyone (male, ordained) verifiably free of those other things?"
Secret arrogance couched in feigned humility, imho, is antithetic to Christian mores...
possibly more damaging, than, say (GASP!) ordaining one of THEM!!!
Is it possible we take too narrow a view on certain things, and rail far too hard on them, while adopting (ad hoc approval implicit) the arrogant, prideful, deceived and contentious self "I am already right- do not question ME!"?
I appreciate your honesty re: the merits of the OT premise, and your personal ambivalence.
My church needs more members willing to debate the issues with dignity, honesty, searching prayerfully.
I think it is telling that Jesus did not rail against outright slavery, or effective servitude of women;
one might ask why? Are these not wrong? I believe the answer is clear; they ARE wrong. However, until the culture and society are able to grapple with these issues (which required the French revolution, and the birth of democracy concurrent with America). Yes, there were many women throughout history, slaves, (and few brave male monarchies) who DID make a clear and defensible stand in this long climb to human rights and free moral agency. But, Jesus did in effect act in such a way; He spoke of freeing the captives, and empowering women in His ministry.
What defense will I have when the One who knows how to ask questions requires of me my soul...
what defense will those within the unenviable leadership and policy-setting roles of our progressive movement towards infinite truth? What does our personal (and corporate) stance convey to the larger community? And is this supportable through the filter of "is this loving in Christ-like fashion"?
Not touching your tainted caricature re:"Woodstock-love" touchstone... ;~/
Question your certainties as much your doubts;
an unquestioned truth is mere varnished falsehood.
Doubt not the strength of the faith given you; dare question.
There were two debates at an official General Conference Session plus numerous others at various levels and it was a wise and correct decision that led the church in official Session to reject approval of women as ordained ministers.
It was a mistake of epic proportions to allow them to be elders and pastors. We are living to regret it. It clearly shows that a small compromise merely aggravates a seeming problem and it becomes a consuming desire for more, more, more.
Maranatha
Well..., this was a truly "friendly" comment on women, wasn't it?
How much more bias and retrograde thinking will we witness on this forum? Just curious...
I just wonder what people outside the church think about the spiritual intelligence of a church that was basically founded by a woman (who later on became an ORDAINED MINISTER) but is now managed by men who deny women the right to be equal - and with the support of some members who appear to just be pro-machismo no matter what.
@ your friend; God commissioned Lucifer...
Jesus commissioned Peter, Judas, Thomas...
He also commissioned the lepers, outcasts, Photina....
Do we wink at the lies, and profession, of Rahab?
What of David? How many other narratives weave these same lines?
Apparently, convening consensus from a well-indoctrinated mutual admiration society
(in a sometimes smokeless, windowless backroom, perhaps airless)
can do better...
oy oy the hubris.
Even the Sanhedrin offered some semblance (of an early morning bums rush) trial.
When Jesus scribbles in the dust from which the accusing brethren were formed,
grace was given to a disgraced woman. Sad the dearth of present grace;
wonders how God can offer grace even to the elders, and the Sanhedrin...
for surely they offer less. Good-old-boys pass "attaboys" all around...
I have to ask, how many of those who accused HER then went on to crucify the non-accuser?
Story does not say, but the notion is almost (sinfully) delightful.
I can almost hear them mayhaps recant the "we did RIGHT..."
Question your certainties as much your doubts;
an unquestioned truth is mere varnished falsehood.
Doubt not the strength of the faith given you; dare question.
"Daring to question" has always been anathema in Adventism.
Yes, the SDA needs to be the head , not the tail in progressive matters.
Someone talk to TED WILSON so we, like other "Christian" denominations, can get GAY pastors ordained ASAP!
And please delete any bible verses in your bible that cause controversy like...
Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Mixing the gay issue into this conversation about women's role in the church seems to be just a cold attempt to distract the participants from the real issue being focused here, i.e., women's role in the church.
Faithful Disciple,
you stated that pastors should concentrate on ' the judgement that is going on in heaven right now, the need to evangelize, the mark of the beast, and other critical subjects?'
What about life while here on earth, how one treats those who don't think the same, are your children attracted to your style of religion, are you a good neighbor or employee, do you listen while God speaks to you, is anyone attracted to Jesus because of how you portray him.....those seem like very critical subjects and if one doesn't concentrate on them the subjects you concentrate on will be for not!
"distract the participants from the real issue being focused here, i.e., women's role in the church."
The real issue is authorty and relevance of scripture.
Earthlings = wicked , deceived, LAW trashing, GOD hating, TRUTH trampling, criminally insane rebels on penal colony Earth.
Keep reading, Jim!
The good stuff comes up in a verse or two! Do NOT stop at 27. Notice what is counted as egregious as some account (GASP!) homosexuality. I counter its not about just the little bits on a check-off list.
Sabbath-CHECK!
not homosexual-CHECK!
con-womens ordination -CHECK!
lacto-ovo-pisci-perfectarian-CHECK!
I'm IN!
There is admonishment against twisting non-contextual disparate verse to predetermined agenda.
I love how Jesus taught principle, and we parse it down dissembled into dogma.
I suppose we all have that gene...
Mind the jots and tittles-yes the letter of the law has merit .
Ignore the spirit of the law at your own peril; this is the real language of heaven.
Same-sex-sex is as bad as
selfish-married-heterosex, self-soothing, or loud and proud abstemiousness!
Or pride, gossip, strife, unforgivingness, pointless contentions etc etc...
Question your certainties as much your doubts;
an unquestioned truth is mere varnished falsehood.
Doubt not the strength of the faith given you; dare question.
Tichy- "I just wonder what people outside the church think about the spiritual intelligence of a church that was basically founded by a woman (who later on became an ORDAINED MINISTER)"
This is not true at all. She never was ordained and documents prove it whatever you wish to think. Read what a official of the White Estate has to say on the matter if you will:
http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article.php?id=143 While we can discuss the matter of women in ministry it never instills confidence when a misstatement is propagated as truth.
It just blows my mind when the SDA Church denies ordination to to someone because of gender... That's pretty sad because the greatest preacher in Adventism is a women, Ellen White... Don't tell me that a women cannot become a pastor, unless you claim that Ellen White was a male... Ellen White was an ordained minister of God...
Like the "birthers" even when Ellen"s ordination paper has been posted on the internet innumerable times, will still deny it. Evidently, they cannot trust their own eyes.
Elaine
But Elaine,
Surely you know that Ellen G. White was born in Kenya, don't you?
Yours in the way,
John Elder
Technically, official church status says she was not ordained through sanctioned ceremony.
Unfortunately, even if there were credence to the internet posting referenced, official agenda has always been to deny such status, regardless of truth. Truth withstands, nay, she demands, scrutiny...it is the doubt that fears light.
"Truth forever on the scaffold, wrong forever on the throne."
- James Russell Lowell
Question your certainties as much your doubts;
an unquestioned truth is mere varnished falsehood.
Doubt not the strength of the faith given you; dare question.
Your Friend:
Can you see? Can you read? Can you think? Apparently you are reluctant to do so.
Asking a criminal if he actually commited a certain crime while even holding the smoking gun in front of the dead body will usually get a "NO" as an answer.
This issue about EGW's ORDINATION is clear, and has been clarified long time ago. She WAS ORDAINED!
Now, asking the White Estate about it will probably reveal an attempt to " explain" it and deny it.
Do YOU chalenge the legitimacy of the CERTIFICATE OF ORDINATION that has been availavble to us for years now? Curious to see your response. Is it or is it not a legitimate certificate? (Just say YES or NO - no need to explain anything)
(I already knew she was born in Kenya...)
I saw the ordination certification paper too........right next to the jack-a-lopes and Piltdown man.
Michael
The White Estate has three surviving ordination certificates issued to EGW. One has the word ordained crossed out; by whom & when is not known. Too bad EGW received ordination credentials at all . . . it makes the issue so very ambiguous for opponents of ordination for women.
"Your Friend" writes, "It was a mistake of epic proportions to allow them to be elders and pastors. We are living to regret it. It clearly shows that a small compromise merely aggravates a seeming problem and it becomes a consuming desire for more, more, more."
Early Adventists eschewed ordination then finally came to practice it. So, yes, it was a mistake to ordain some men in their "consuming desire for more, more, more." Now the church is expected to lay hands on everyone called by God.
Your Friend" writes, "It was a mistake of epic proportions to allow them to be elders and pastors. We are living to regret it. It clearly shows that a small compromise merely aggravates a seeming problem and it becomes a consuming desire for more, more, more."
Tell that to the 3,000 new SDA converts in China because of women pastors. Should the new converts and the pastors be disfellowshipped? Ask the G.C.
Elaine
To Elaine's excellent point, http://news.adventist.org/2009/05/adventist-presidents.html
Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise.
"Was Ellen White Herself Ordained?
There is no record of Ellen White ever having been ordained by human hands. Yet from 1871 until her death she was granted ministerial credentials by various organizations of the church. The certificate that was used read Ordained Minister. Several other credential certificates from the mid-1880s are still in our possession. On the one from 1885 the word ordained is neatly struck out. On the 1887 certificate, the next one we have, it is not.
Had she been ordained in the interim? Some have argued that she had. But the question is settled definitely by her own hand. In 1909 she filled out a Biographical Information Blank for the General Conference records. On the blank for item 19, which asks, If ordained, state when, where, and by whom, she simply inscribed an X. This is the same response she made to item 26, which asked, "
From the White Estate Rep. Case is closed!!
What difference does it make whether she was ordained or not? Name one ordained pastor who is anywhere near her rank and standing in the church.
Don Tucie
Could it be that faith simply ought not to be rational?
HEALTHY FAMILIES
Christian stewardship includes cultivating healthy families, as illustrated in this guideline statement voted by the General Conference.
“The Bible clearly indicates a distinguishing mark of Christian believers is the quality of the human relationships in the church and family. It is in the spirit of Christ to love and accept, to seek to affirm and build others up rather than abuse or tear one another down. There is no room among Christ’s followers for tyrannical control and abuse of power or authority. Motivated by their love for Christ, his disciples are called to show respect for the welfare of others, to accept males and females as equals, and to acknowledge every person’s right to respect and dignity. Failure to relate to others in this way violates their personhood and devalues human beings created and redeemed by God.”1
1Taken from the statement on family violence by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Administrative Committee on August 27, 1996.
The above statement, which apparently was promulgated some fifteen years ago by the General Conference, appeared in a recent issue of the North Pacific Union Gleaner. While the apparent intent was that it applies to association between family members, one certainly wonders whether it shouldn’t also have application to administrative issues within the church “family”. While no one is likely to argue that the intent of the church administration is to “abuse or tear one another down”, most [I think/hope] would agree that “His disciples are called to show concern and respect for the welfare of others, to accept males and females as equals [including equal access to ordination], and to acknowledge every person’s right to respect and dignity”.
[Brackets supplied by writer.
Successful women pastors - from Adventist News Network:
Church planter Zu Xiu Hua, who started 380 congregations in the northeastern province of Jilin, spoke with Paulsen through an interpreter during his visit. Her congregations, now attended by more than 20,000 members in the province's mostly rural region, are served by dozens of volunteer women whom she trains to conduct Bible studies, preach, and offer spiritual care.
More than half of Adventist pastors in China are women, and a majority of the members are also female.
Other local church leaders, some from as far as a three-hour train ride away, gathered at the two main churches to meet their world church president. At the Beiguan Church, Pastor Hao Ya Jie described for the church leaders the ministries and outreach services she and her fellow leaders coordinate, including literacy classes, ministerial training, lay preacher training and wedding services. Up to five Shenyang couples are married in the church per week, which is often their first exposure to Adventism.
"You have managed to make this church what we hope Seventh-day Adventist churches everywhere would be," said Paulsen after he learned of the church's community-based ministries. "It is a center for worship, a center for ministerial training, a center open to the community."
“And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry.” —Ellen G White, RH, July 26, 1906
“In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.” — Ellen G White, RH, May 18, 1911.
I'll choose to be ordained by God over being ordained by men any day! But to get the ordination of both is a bonus!!
Yet the brethren choose to put an unnecessary stumbling block in the way that repels and trips people up. Unwise, unnecessary and immoral.
"Jared, you seem to have two hobby horses, the ordination of women and homosexual marriage." Not only Jared but Spectrumites generally it seems as I read these blogs. One wonders what onlookers think who are not SDAS with this errant emphasis.
Your Friend,
Still waiting for you comment about the thousands in China converted by female pastors? What say you?
Elaine
And I "wonder what onlookers think who are not SDAS" when they read some comments that are based on a cultic approach, full of gender discriminatory statements and bias.
They must certainly be happy for not being part of this type of "elected/chosen people"...
If God is calling you then why do you need the permission of men, or of denominations to answer that call?
Amen Stephen.
Imagine getting a call from God but doing something else just because you cant get a full paycheck.
I haven't heard anyone say their call from God was only if they got a paycheck, recognition, benefit package and ordination track.
Michael
I truly despair for the church that I love.
Here we have a wonderful, heart-warming story; a story about the joy of a mother and daughter who have followed God’s calling in their life. Instead of celebrating this gift we allow the discussion to degenerate into an ugly and acrimonious argument, one that we know before we start neither side will ever win.
To the good people out there I ask please, please stop taking the bait! For anyone who has spent any little time browsing this sight it is abundantly clear that there are a number of posters who, despite their claims to be our friends, regularly post with the sole intention of fanning the flames of dissention and despair. The evidence also clearly shows that in these debates neither side is ever going to convince the other of any error in their belief system.
When it has become so clear that we are never going to convince the Grinch’s would it not be better if we simply decided to ignore them? It is time that we stopped giving them the power to destroy our joy in Christ; the joy that we find in the good news of a victory that has been won.
As we learn to ignore the sad and bitter posts we will rob the posters of their ability to kill our joy and their reason for posting. Once this happens hopefully they will go and play somewhere else. When this happens we can get back to robust debate on a wide variety of topics, but debate amongst people who are at the very least willing to accept that an understanding different from their own may indeed have some merit.
Courtenay
For all this debate I question one statement..."Where does Love your neighbor as yourself" come into play as we debate about other people being "good" enough or not? It seems we have lost track of the real purpose of our church, as set up by Christ, to love. We get bound with the legalistic viewpoints of if men are superior to women and that is why they are called to preach. Who cares? Let God judge who He will, it is not our place to decide. We should accept and appreciate all pastors, who God ordains, that speak to us regardless of gender. To have hardened hearts against women in ministry is only a tool used by the devil to instigate trouble within our church.
Add your comment