And the bloodthirsty roars of cheering and rejoicing echo from Educate Truth just as they did from the spectators at the Roman coliseums. Look for more to be ripped to pieces by the lions of bureaucracy and church politics. The iron first of the Wilson administration spurred on by La Sierra opponents has done its work well in bringing Ricardo Graham to his knees. Score one for Teddy.

Headline would be more accurate reading, "Four Fired at LaSierra." Doesn't seem like they really "resigned."

As to the other comments ... they are premature. We have no information about why in this story.

A Google search shows there's a Lenny Darnell in the LA area who pushes hypnosis, NLP, and "shamanic healing strategies." LinkedIn seems to confirm this is the same guy on the LaSierra board.

Bradley's name has been suggested as one who does promote evolution.

Beach ...? Kaatz? I guess we'll just have to wait for someone to do some reporting....

I suspect these gifted individuals will soon find employment in a place where their obvious talents and strengths will be appreciated.
And they will wonder why on earth, they put up with that nonsense for this long.
When people's services are no longer valued, it becomes apparent that it is time to seek new horizons.
My experience tells me they will be surprised at how wonderful it will be to work in an environment that indeed honors and appreciates what they bring to the table, and it will be a relief not having every move scrutinized and criticized just for doing the jobs they were hired to to.
Onward and Upward

And the witch hunt begins.

If this has anything to do with what LSU has been doing the last 10+ years, I wonder what board member Jeff Kaatz has to do with all of this.

This must be a difficult thing for those who are losing their jobs. It’s unfortunate that LSU and our church let it get to this point in the first place.

Shane

Never underestimate the power of one or two people intent on a goal. That's the lesson.

Will Educate Truth stop here with their litmus testing?

This rousing success in response to their attacks will continue, I predict.

Who will be next? The English Department? The drama program? The sports initiatives? The woman pastor at the church? The religion department? Math? Physics? Education? What about the excellent conflict resolution program? Wouldn't that be an irony?

Wait, what is the accrediting association going to say about this? Are Adventist college and university boards really autonomous as required by accrediting associations? Was there ever academic freedom at an Adventist institution of higher education? There won't be now.

Where are the men and women who will not be bought or sold when we need them?

They just got axed. The first round at least. Lets just pray La Sierra will be able to hold on to some of those who hold on to academic integrity and are there for the sake of the students. Hopefully WASC takes a good hard look at what happened here and does something about it. Praying...

The release said they resigned. This report makes it seem as if they were forced to resign or axed as someone said. The people resigned voluntarily. No story here.

Asked to resign - that is like grabbing someone by the balls and asking if they'd like you to let go. Call it voluntary? BS!

It is interesting none of those asked to resign held tenured positions. All serve at the pleasure of:

Now the question is at whose pleasure? Given recent history one would suspect Ted's!

But why should we rush to judgment just because others have. I seriously doubt if Educate Truth was a major player. We will hae to wait until they drop the other shoe. Tom Z

What are the bios of the others?

Leon, you're simply sounding like an idiot, in this matter at least . . .

Thank you for the clarification Barbara. My apologies Tim. However my point still stands. If asked to resign, unless you thought your employer was on good grounds one should fight to keep their job.
What this sounds like is a win-win for La Sierra and the people concerned. La Sierra gets to defend the integrity of their beliefs and the employers are relieved of the headache of explaining a dismissal on their resumes. to god be the glory. WIN-WIN.

Shane, Educate Truth has lots of power to create suspicion, generate witch hunts, make life miserable for people, propagate an ideology... No you don't have the power to fire but you have power to create mayhem which has repurcussions.

Here goes the Adventist Inquisition.

The broader question is whether the Adventist Church still has the intellectual bandwidth to even operate universities, or should it revert to Bible Colleges and Seminaries.

The worst thing about freedom is that to enjoy it, I must grant it.

Actually, Leon, my point (and several others') still stands . . .

There are times, Leon, when it is futile to stand up to those who hold a massive imbalance of power. At those times it is often best to cut your losses and move on rather than consume time, emotions and resources fighting a battle. I've seen it often. Your world must be awefully simplistic and sheltered to see things so black and white.

A mosquito has great power and influence, but it is still a mighty nuisance - but it is still a miniscule mosquito.

Shane,

Who is your next target? You may as well announce it here...

Mike T
I am in agreement with you. But surely we cannot impute evil to the employers because the employees choose to act in rational self interest.

Anonymous5
when you post under your name I can respond to you. I don't engage cowards who call people's names and are afraid to be identified to get what's coming to them. Be gone satan.

This is much ado about little, and is a Win-WIN for La Sierra and the employees concerned. Jeez, Inquisition? Invoking Nazi persecutions? My, my, my. I must tell john Stewart and Steve Colbert where to get good comedy writers.

Leon, publish your whole name so we know who you are.
A first name is not much different to being anonymous.

You have failed to show how this is a win win for an employee.
You are making massive speculative judgments without substance.

With your attitude and thinking style I hope you are never my employer.
I think I would choose to resign first!
But then maybe you are more thoughtful in person than your words.
I hope so.

good thing theres no more archeology dept at LSC since Geraty left...

because the puritans whose motto seems to be "Let us create ignorance after our own kind" would next have to dismember anybody who teaches that Jericho is over 10,000 yrs old, as modern archeology shows. But that of course cannot be, since the entire world and solar system are only 6000 yrs old, according to a dumbed down fundy interpretation of Genesis.

in addition, Jericho is over 600 ft below sea level...so one would expect that the World Wide Flood, which is supposed to have happened about 4500 yrs ago, would have totally destroyed the mud brick buildings there.... it is alleged that the wild, turbulent Noah's Flood is the cause of all geology, including the break up of Pangea, the Grand Canyon, the elevation of all mountains, including the reason that there are marine fossils over 5 miles hi up Mt Everest. But apparently, the WWF missed the Pyramids of Egypt and the mud brick walls of jericho 650 feet BELOW SEA LEVEL.

So why are there still soft-mud brick buildings there? albeit, buried under a few feet of sediment washed down from the hills surrounding Jericho?

http://www.bible-architecture.info/Jericho.htm

not sure I want my MA from LSC to continue on my resume if it is going to engender laughs instead of respect.

Steve, I wonder if this board is not a setup, since people who post a full name end up responding when an anonymous poster is addressed.

Anyway the WIN-WIN is simple. La Sierra gets to defend what it sees as its responsibility to the church, and the employees don't have to struggle to explain a dismissal on their resumes and whatever financial repercussions a dismissal would have had. That's all I mean.

But aren't you bothered by those suggesting that the Church is engaged in an Inquisition? Aren't you incensed that the SDA church would be compared , however obliquely, to the Nazis? This is a simple administrative decision and the Board of LSU was gracious enough to allow the employees to resign with dignity.

Let's move on.

James Beach
Title: Associate Professor of Mathematics
Office Location: CAS Dean’s Office, LSH
E-mail: jbeach@lasierra.edu
Phone: (951) 785-2210

Kevin, next in line for the "purge" are pastors who teach heresies in regards to salvation such as, LAST GENERATION THEOLOGY and SINLESS PERFECTION...

Oops, that won't happen, at least while Ted Wilson is on the throne...

Dr. Gary Bradley
Professor

Email: gbradley@lasierra.edu

From Adventist Review: Sierra biology professor Gary Bradley was quoted as saying, “It’s very, very clear that what I’m skeptical of is the absolute necessity of believing that the only way a creator God could do things is by speaking them into existence a few thousand years ago.” Bradley further noted, “That’s where my skepticism lies. That’s the religious philosophical basis for what I call the lunatic fringe.”

Dear Marcus S:

If there is a purge on the perfection issue, it will remove those who deny the Biblical teaching that perfection of character is possible through divine power here on earth. And it is the written counsel of God that is presently on the "throne," as you put it, which is why truth stands on the verge of prevailing at long last.

God bless!

Pastor Kevin Paulson

10 Commandments

....

3. Thou shalt not take the name of President Ted in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who taketh that name in vain.

....

Comparing unhealthy sugar and caffeine drinks produced by monopolistic consumeristic capitalistic corporations to seeking the truth is comparing fleas with galaxies.

Please do not encourage Kevin Paulson in trolling yet another thread.

You can be a great teacher and even be popular with students, but still undermining your employer's beliefs in the classroom. Good or not he still did not support or endorse the biblical creation account.

Shane

Dear Marcus S:

Perhaps you could tell me the time and place when the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church officially denied the doctrine of sinless perfection in this life.

And frankly, I believe that issue belongs on the other thread where we were discussing the matter, rather than on this one which concerns another topic. Not that I don't think the Heppenstall gospel hasn't paved the way for evolution in the church; it's just that it might be best to keep certain discussions as distinct from one another as possible.

God bless!

Pastor Kevin Paulson

After living through the inquisition at Southern in the early '80's I thought we (as a church) were past such high handed tactics. I thought the church respected truth in such as way that it could stand on its own and that we could allow academics latitude such as is fitting in an university. This is sad, sad, sad ...

May I recommend that we NOT let the issue of perfectionism become the focus of this thread. The more everyone responds.... the worse it will be. Remember what happened with abortion becoming mroe important than the original post recently. Do NOT fan the flames. ¡Silencio, por favor!

To all participants in the present discussion:

This constant cry of "academic freedom" is really frivolous. It's like what Shane said about Pepsi employees complaining if they lost their jobs for promoting Coca Cola. What would happen to someone on President Obama's re-election campaign team if he or she publicly declared that Newt Gingrich, Mitt Romney, or Sarah Palin would make a better president?

When a man and woman get married, certain freedoms are willingly relinquished, such as the freedom to be romantically involved with others. If such "freedom" is exercised by one or another partner after marriage, the consequences for the relationship will be seriously negative. For a spouse who has strayed to thereafter complain if his or her partner voiced concern at excessive time spent by the other in the company of an opposite-gender friend, would hardly make sense. Love depends on freedom, to be sure, but there are consequences if this freedom is abused.

Reference has been made to what happened at such institutions as Southern in the early '80s. I was involved in those controversies myself at Pacific Union College. The problem was that the cleansing of the ranks didn't go far enough. Too many in leadership were fearful of splitting the church, so they left the problem largely uncorrected. Thus we have a much deeper problem needing correction today.

And let's stop and think about this for a moment. Back in those days the principal issues were righteousness by faith, the sanctuary, Ellen White, and similar distinctively Adventist matters. Now the church is facing both the above issues as well as ideas and practices which aren't even Christian, such as evolution and homosexuality. It is what Ellen White described in Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 672 as "the downward march to perdition."

That is what happens when inspired authority is slighted and reasoned away. That authority is now being restored. It will be a sad, painful, even wrenching process, but it must be done. Love, no less than justice, demands it.

God bless!

Pastor Kevin Paulson

The university is a different milieu than the Pepsi Cola plant. By definition, a university is a setting where one can search for truth without the propaganda squeeze. This must be modified somewhat, of course, for church related universities. However, through the years I have felt blest and affirmed that I am not a 4th generation cult member who is yet again raising children in a cult like setting. By this I mean when I have noted academic freedom in church universities, I realize that I am not in a dogmatic cult. So, again, this squeeze on La Sierra makes me sad.

"City Lights: you said that the GC could not get anyone on the board level, so they went for a denominationally employed person to apply the ax. Didn't it occur to you that Graham is the chair of the La Sierra board? Could that have had something to do with it? Who else would they turn to if not the chair of the board?"

Truly you must think I am an idiot. Of course I know he is the board chair. Read what I wrote again. Wilson could not get at any of the professors directly because they are employees of the university and the board of directors decides their fate. No one on the board has to answer to the GC except the one person who is directly employed by the GC - union president Ricardo Graham - who just happens to be the board chair. It's amazing what a little threat to one's income and career will force them to do. I told you they would find a way to get at them. And they did. Lee Grismer, get that resume up to date. The writings on the wall.

Does this surprise anyone? It shouldn't. It has always been a tactic of conservative GC administrators to apply pressure where necessary to get at the men they want. Gillian Ford recounted right here at Spectrum how Wilson Sr., Robert Folkenberg and other fundamentalist right-wing GC hacks applied pressure to all the pastors who were at the helm of P.U.C. church during the time Des was a member there. Their exact words to these pastors were; "Someday we would love to wake up and find out you have done the deed (disfellowship Des)." Fortunately, the pastors in question protected Des and rose to his defense, showing they were above such ham-fisted threat tactics. I only wish Graham had proven himself of the same mettle.

LET'S PAUSE AND SAY AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE UNTIL WE KNOW MORE. ALTHOUGH THEY OFTEN ARE, THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS WHAT THEY INITIALLY SEEM.

A message just went out to the campus that the resignations are not in any way related to biology or students at La Sierra.

Interesting article that shows ties among the people who resigned.
http://www.lasierra.edu/news/2008/jan/campaign_gifts.html

One thing I've learned over the years is that there is almost always more to the story than is revealed to the public. Another thing I've learned, is that when there is a rush to judgment, (at least on my part,) it often brings conclusions that, upon further information, may change my opinion. However, the principles of openness and transparency should be the norm and should prevail, whenever possible. Sometimes, for various reasons, including legal ramifications, the 'need to know' prevents all the facts from being known. With those posting on Spectrum, I do believe, in time, the truth WILL be told.

Dr. Ricardo Graham is Chair of the Board of LSU because of his position as President of Pacific Union Conference. He became PUC President late in 2007. I've known and worked with Elder Graham since he was President of Northern CA Conference. There are few leaders I know or respect more. I just double checked his bio, and was reminded that he received his Doctor of Ministry degree from San Francisco Theological Seminary. I wish MORE of our leaders / administrators (and physicians!) received at least 'some' of their training outside of the Adventist educational system. This affords a breadth of education and a perspective that is not found with most that have had stayed soley within our own system, as good as it is.

Elder Graham is not without his faults... if pushed, I'm sure Audrey could name one or two. However, he is NOT a person that will be pushed or bullied. Or used for the outcomes desired by others, no matter what their position.... or the cost to him personally. He has always, in my experience, been willing to take a stand for what he believes. To make him out to be the tool for 'the powers that be' is wrong.

Again, I do believe, in time, the truth WILL be told. The three most potent forms of communication are: Telephone, Twitter, and TelAnAdventist.

If this is true, I'm going to have to start using a fictional college name on my CV from now on. But as it stands, I see no direct link to the firings-lets not mince words-and the creation debate.

I haven't followed this nonsense very closely. I just took a look at the Educate Truth website and had a good chuckle. If that is the voice of the church, I'm out. Done. I'd expect that kind of blatant numb-skullery from a back woods fundamentalist church, but I thought we were better than that. Perhaps it's time for LSU and other like-minded institutions to cut the umbilical cord. I'd like to see how well the SDA church does after a mass exodus of the intelligentsia.

Perhaps it might behoove Spectrum to make sure they get all the facts before they post the story to avoid such rampant speculation that is the norm within Adventist circles.

However, if it does have to do with evolutionary beliefs, I hope they were asked to resign because they refused to stop teaching evolution as fact at the expense of creation and not simply because they believe in evolution. What one personally believes and what one publically teaches are two different areas.

There wouldn't be enough academic purging to control the conscience of all our professors.

The public relations department sent a news alert that states that this resignation request has nothing to do with the biology dept. Only one of the professors is from biology. Some of you have taken untruth and tried to make it real. Can't we let the facts speak for themselves instead of surmising and putting your pet twist on the action. Some of you just like to hear yourselves talk and you say nothing worth listening too.

Tim:
My feeling is this: why valid explanations are missing on the LSU case, has nothing to do with HR, but with "solid" church doctrine. It has nothing to do with hermeneutics, but with perceived self-empowering power-structures. It is so difficult to to tell the truth....

Ole

Methinks they doth protest too much. Are we really to believe the timing of these resignations are mere coincidence? I don't see the real truth of this ever coming out, at least not through official channels. The GC is not known for its transparency and disclosure.

As for anonymous posting, really? We're still having to defend ourselves over this? Give it a rest already. The reasons for doing so have already been clearly stated ad-nauseum in other threads and they are completely valid. Those who don't like it, tough. Deal with it. The content of a discussion is always infinitely more important than the identity of the commenters. I could care less if I know who says what, I just deal with what they have to say.

For those of you just joining us, “asked to resign” is Adventist-ese for “fired.” Let’s leave the quibbling over the severance packages and CVs (for those of you coming here from Educate Truth, a CV is sort of like a resume, but for people smarter than you) to the accountants and career coaches. This is, has been, and will continue to be precisely one thing—a witch hunt—and round one just went to some Nimrod with a personal edifice to his proclaimed singular understanding of God (ed. note: didn’t work out so well the first time). A few vindictive, savvy, charismatic zealots have organized a successful public pillorying of not just esteemed and talented faculty members, but also important members of the greater community. It is true that there is more to this story – in fact, the record will indicate that additional minor technicalities will be marshaled to justify a purely political sacrifice. These individuals (with specific reference to three I know particularly well) are precisely the sort of cornerstones our church needs to survive, but instead of granting the appropriate leeway to encourage and express academic freedom (which, don’t any of us kid ourselves, is PRECISELY what this is about), they were made examples of. Nobody is perfect – myself and these four included – but to what standard should we hold the human beings that comprise our church? These guys weren’t drinking Pepsi at the Coke factory – they were saying, “hey, don’t you think it’d be better if we didn’t put so much sugar in this stuff?” And let us not forget that the repercussions of this 11th century mentality extend far beyond four individuals – their families, the university, the community at large and even Adventism in general will face a reckoning following this debacle. If the church is remade in the image promoted by the incoherently frothing minority that has brought its disproportionate influence upon these proceedings—if they are successful in forcing our church into a cataclysmic regression and in erasing the myriad of essential changes we’ve made at great collective difficulty—then my membership (and that of many around me) in the resulting “church” is in jeopardy. “Good riddance,” some might say, to an exodus of individuals sharing similar attitudes– this sort of purging may be precisely the intent of this first salvo in what has all the makings of burgeoning an internal civil war. Those who remain, though, should be forewarned that this decision alienates the creative and intelligent members of our church, and after their departure, the church would be left in the hands of the circus that instigated this apocalypse. It is an easy task to mobilize a fascist underground of rabid zealots around a website built on dubious claims of questionable veracity, legal and theological irrelevance and logical inconsistency– it is an entirely different ordeal to manage a true, organic, embracing, sensitive, rational entity that a modern church must be. To make it more clear to those who got here through a link at Educate Truth: the church will be left in the hands of fools and ignorant blowhards if this campaign makes it to the third act. Evolution – be it physical, social or theological – is antithetical to some, but evolution is an indisputable truth for any who put down our pitchforks long enough to look over our haystacks and consider the rest of the world for even a moment (a skill I learned from many of my professors growing up whom I will not name, lest they fall into the crosshairs). Any organism that refuses to evolve will perish – it happened to the Dodo and pegged pants, and it can happen to us. If anybody else wants to keep Adventism from becoming just another footnote on Wikipedia, the time to stop this idiocy is now. As an alumnus of LSU, it sickens me to see some of the school’s best professors treated in this manner, and I cannot see myself to recommend such an intellectually hostile environment at this time.

Which is the worse sin: attempting to integrate your personal philosophy with the overwhelming tangible evidence of an alternative, or lying to those you claim to represent about the motives of a significant and controversial action? Consider that conundrum when reading the release that claims “…these resignations have no connection to the biology controversy.” There will be a gossamer-thin fabric of technicalities erected to deflect critical assessment of the decision, but anybody who doesn’t see the wizard behind this curtain is delusional, blind or a fool (for those of you visiting from Educate Truth, you can pick more than one).

As I'm reading these posts, there's something I'm wondering. There seem to be a lot of people here who question/have a distaste for traditional Advent doctrine. I suspect many also struggle with the concept of the remnant church. If you're that doubtful, why not start another church? One that aligns with your convictions? I'm not trying to drive anyone out, so don't don't misread or misapply what I'm saying. But if you're that unhappy with Adventist belief - and you're not convinced we're the remnant (and yes, I'm aware that didn't come up in this thread; extrapolating from other threads) - why not branch out? Why stay when you're so unhappy all the time?

Or do you suspect, somewhere in your hearts, that you might be wrong?

@ Terrance Porter.
If every Adventist who thinks the remnant church and the 6 day creation theory are BS left the church, there wouldn't BE a church.

"Their resignation was requested." That's not a resignation. They were fired.

What a great way to create a positive spirit for the highlight weekend of the university and especially the graduates and their families, or for students in their final week of uni for the year. Definitely not. Very insensitive. A pall of shock and gloom must hang over the festivities. Great timing for maximum shock to maximum number of people.

Something dramatic has to have taken place for this to have taken place so suddenly without warning. I wonder what these guys were up to. It's highly scandalous, or it's some great adventist sin like the guys were busted having a nip of wine or were caught leaving a cinema after sunset Friday night, or ate a McDonalds hamburger on Sabbath, or drank coke instead of pepsi, or didn't agree with the Sabbath School lesson.

What's the talk of what is really happening, "A Student"?

Haven't heard much, and I think its best to not speculate and spread rumors. I find its strange that these four were forced to resign at the same time. I could easily see how the evolution vs. creation could play a role in this, but they are saying its not related. I personally don't want Dr. Bradley to go; not for myself, but for future students of LSU. As for the others... I don't know them personally, but I think they are all related in some way.

I'm guessing there was a board meeting at the university coinciding with graduation as its a time when most board members are present. Which would explain the action and firing of all four at the same time. Can't imagine the board chairman doing this off his own whim or pressure from above without consulting the board.

Reading all the wild reactionary insistances that this is evolution related prior to any real info on the subject reminds me of the adage that it is, "not wise argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

The most over the top example was the reference to Niemöller’s famous quote by Andrew Hanson.

All I know is that Dr. Bradley used to claim to have the strongest sphincter muscle in the world. I'm serious. He had a colonoscopy and was amazed at how it looked from the inside. He spoke about it often. Aside from that, barring some kind of sex scandal (as affected two history / religion profs in the 90s) Dr. Bradley's backside this doesn't have to do with the evolution debate. If anything they should have gone after the lefties in the religion department if they didn't like the way things were being taught. Now it's just a circus. Kaatz was a great.guy as was.Beach. Bradley was so-so as he was quite intolerant of the traditional Adventist students. But oh well it's water under the bridge. Now if Ricardo Graham can only address the rogue element that tried to throw the church behind Prop 8. But he probably.doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to do that...

Clearly a blight on the Seventh Day Adventist denomination as a whole. This reflects on every single one of us. Its time that we start behaving like godly people instead of letting immoral acts like this to take place. Shame on us all.

Shane,

It seems to have gone out on campus wide email, I don't see how that counts as a "strategic move on the part of LSU admin" to leak to Spectrum. Your site has received forwarded emails, right? Were those some plot on the part of LSU admin?

Perhaps the administration at LSU wanted further clarification themselves, it sounds like this was pretty much a surprise to them.

If they didn't get fired over the evolution debate, then they must have done something really bad to be forced to resign. Maybe to the level of a Dr. Pipim who, likewise, resigned.

Until La Sierra or somebody discloses the real scoop, we can only assume the worst.

Shane Hilde is a failed troll. Continuing to respond to his simple arguments just feeds his supposed self-importance even further. Just like LSUalumnus has said, those who fail to evolve will become footnotes in Wikipedia. I have been taught by Bradley my entire undergraduate career, and it will be a damn shame he won't be there to see me graduate this weekend.

Mark these words that many of us have been saying for a while: Ignorance and a conservative agenda will spell doom for this branch of Christianity. These years, this decade and maybe decades after it are becoming the age of the "ignoramus". When the intelligentsia of the church leave, what will be left is a smoldering mess of fundies screaming "my interpretation of scripture is right, if you don't like it, leave." Intelligent discourse is exactly how the current iteration of Adventism emerged, and without it, we betray all who went before us in forging this faith.

Amen

*saying

Something of this magnitude doesn't happen without the president knowing.

And yet the update from LSU states:

La Sierra University’s President and Provost learned of the situation Friday afternoon.

Only the naive would fail to comprehend that that sounds awfully like PR-speak for "The President was presented with a fait accompli".

A_Student, LSU_CumLaude, and other LSU students: I have a simple question for you. Did any of your biology faculty teach theistic evolution as fact this past year? Did any of them belittle a literal creation week a relatively short time (thousands of years) ago? No names, please. Just the simple facts.

Shane, enough of the posturing already. No one with an ounce of knowledge regarding your role in this whole affair is buying it. We have seen the inquisitorial bile your Educate Truth devotees splatter on your forums daily. We know the agenda is to have certain professors fired, whether you admit it or not. You're like a little rabble-rouser in the background running around inciting the rabid mob to riot who then 'innocently' shrugs his shoulders and smirks while saying; "Who, me?" when the destructive results of the campaign manifests itself.

Keep it up. Just remember that the little yapping Pomeranian who nips at heels and pees on pant legs constantly gets kicked once in a while.

My experience has been that none of my professors teach any theories as fact. They teach that all theories are interpretations of observations and attempts to understand things. These understandings continually change. Some make better sense than others given the understandings at the moment. All acknowledge that the Bible says very little about any mechanisms of how things are or how they came to be. That isn't the domain of the Bible and if we were to put all the scientific explanations from the Bible it would be a very small booklet indeed. That's not the fault of the Bible because it never was meant to be a science textbook. It's poor science to attempt to construe the evidence to fit a predetermined theory, whether that is of a creationist-theology kind, a theistic-evolution kind or a materialist-evolutionary kind. Do the science and do the theology. If and when they don't align, that is a separate discussion to be had. But neither are served well by trying to force one to fit the other. Clear thinking it important for science and for theology. Adherence to a set form of belief in science or theology because that is what has been held in the past is not good science or good theology. I've learned and developed skills in healthy thinking through my studies and for that I am deeply grateful. Thank you La Sierra!

Don't know about this past year, but when I was at LSU in the 90's I didn't get the feeling of belittling the short week mythos, although I probably wasn't paying attention, since it has always been my understanding that the Bible is not, and cannot honestly be, interpreted literally.

Incidentally, the Biology classes that I took at Andrews prior to transferring to LSU didn't try to push a literal week creation. I don't remember if we did or did not cover evolution as presented in the text book, I suspect that we did, it does have it's own section in the text that we used - Biology by Campbell

@Mr. Alfke- I'm confused as to why you think creationists must be wrong due to Jericho's walls still standing post-flood. All beliefs aside- biblically speaking, the flood was in Genesis & Jericho thrived until Hebrews (chronologically after the time of Genesis), but was still referenced as a land mark after the time of Jesus. Also, the biblical account of the prime of egypt is in Exodus...once again post-flood. Where did your theory come from that the flood occurred after the time of Jesus?

@Mr. Moran- I believe you are projecting your own convictions about a 6 day creation onto the Seventh-day Adventist church as a whole. Regardless of literal or figurative days, Ithe concept is believed & shared by all of the young adult groups I have had the pleasure of getting to know & study the Bible with. The fact that our youth are studying the Bible diligently, seeking truth, & remaining in the church speaks volumes. Please only speak of your 1st hand experience when it comes to such matters as personal conviction.

As for LSU & those who are no longer employed, my prayers are with you. With the students who may feel repercussions & the eyes of scrutiny on their school, with the remaining employees, & with those in search of employment. May God bless them all & open windows where doors have been shut.

I said, "Something of this magnitude doesn't happen without the president knowing."

Shane, when someone reads that, the most reasonable implication is that the writer is claiming that the President knew of the firing before the decision was finalised and had a chance to impact the decision. (For example, it is a far less reasonable interpretation that "something of this magnitude" refers to "the release of the news" rather than the underlying events.)

I was merely pointing out that that reasonable interpretation seems...unlikely.

Perhaps it's difficult for you to comprehend that this just doesn't have anything to do with the current conflict and that this was totally self inflicted by the individuals themselves.

Perhaps it is difficult for you to comprehend that you are constructing a rather colorful strawman about my comprehension and beliefs.

Rebellion! Satan's problems were all about rebellion. Adam and Eve's problems were about rebellion. So many of the important stories in the Bible are about rebellion. Many of the problems in the church are the result of rebellion. This one at La Sierra included. Do we believe that this is God's church, and that He has chosen Godly men to lead, or not? I hear a ton of rebellious ideas here. May God forgive us and lead us to greater obedience as we prepare for His soon coming!

Hi Professor Kent,

As my time as a Biology major from 2007 and four years later till now, I can say that how creationism and evolution are taught has fundamentally changed.

During freshman year, my 2nd quarter freshman Biology class was prefaced (By Dr. McCloskey) with the statement that what he was showing us was what the world believed. It does not undermine creationism etc etc. That's pretty much all we got as far as hearing about creationism.

Now, 3 years later, they dedicate a much larger amount of time towards explaining creationism/holding lectures for creationism.

In my opinion, if people really did feel the need for hearing about creationism, there are a myriad of classes which focus on the old testament/genesis offered at LSU by the religion department.

Now we are constantly reminded that this is "not fact, but it is supported by years and years of research etc. etc." It's very demeaning in a way, and I feel as if we, the students, are being treated like babies, just because some people took offense towards evolution being taught. Oh well, it will only be the students below my class reaping the "benefits" of this updated curriculum.

Also, I agree with Student 2 and alumnus.

There was no belittling of the creation story, however, students who ignorantly confronted professors about evolution or the scientific theory were belittled, and called ignorant.

They deserved it IMHO.

And yes Professor Kent,

Shane and his bile-spewing antics are undoubtedly a product of some sort of underlying personal/academic issue with La Sierra University. He will never respond to these indictments, however, he will continue to incessantly fuel the fires of ignorance and witch-hunting when it comes to any issue against the university.

It's funny how all of this is now about Shane Hilde - either he was influential or he wasn't. If he was influential, the boys at the top listened. If he wasn't influential, there was no harm / no foul. He had his academic freedom to discuss what happened at La Sierra, and the University had its academic freedom to respond.

I don't fault him either way with it - if anything he simply posted information that people wished wouldn't have been released. Kind of like an Adventist Wikileaks - which is, ironically, the same thing Spectrum has been for so many years. It just happened that Shane was conservative instead of liberal.

So I give equal kudos to Shane for publicizing what was happening at La Sierra, and for Spectrum for giving Shane the spotlight. Congratulations - and I think Shane and the folks at Educate Truth have had the last word here.

There's no need to take a "shoot the messenger" approach to Educate Truth. Obviously they did a better job at influencing the denomination than all of the muscle of academia, Spectrum, and Adventist Today.

This isn't to say who was right - it's just the facts. So no more sour grapes.

I wouldn't put down the university that much. I am going to Medical School after this, and will be making the same wages that other doctors will once I start working.

/Go figure

With any luck Dr. Bradley has better cardiovascular health than the average Adventist!

A new thing for ET to take up: the evidence for alcohol & cardiovascular health vs the traditional Adventist beliefs on the subject.

Just as well they aren't at Southern - no termination benefit at all. Just cut loose.

"If an employee resigns, he/she is not eligible to receive a termination settlement."

https://www.southern.edu/hr/Documents/HANDBOOKS/employee.current.pdf

Well I guess I didn't communicate my thought clearly, because that was not what I was trying to say.

No worries.

Recently a secret tape of a private conversation among four friends was released and distributed widely in the SDA church hierarchy.

One wonders whether the person who recorded this conversations broke surveillance laws, as (IIRC) many States criminalize recordings made without participants' knowledge unless they are done under a warrant or some other equivalent authorization provided for government agencies.

That anyone would believe a glass of wine and some conversation is all there is to this astounds me. Puhleeze. Are people really this easily snowed? To repeat again some insightful words that predicted this exact thing:

"It is true that there is more to this story – in fact, the record will indicate that additional minor technicalities will be marshaled to justify a purely political sacrifice."

Plenty of diversionary issues will be cited. What really happened probably will never see the light of day.

Shane should be enraged if he actually believes this. That someone would be axed for drinking alcohol and not for teaching evolution you would think should send him over the edge in frustration.

Those who do not know how the denominational political machine works will be satisfied with this and accept it at face value. Of course Bradley would say this. He doesn't want a war and he knows if the real issue is brought to light it would be an uprising the likes which conservatives have never seen before. For those of us who have been with the church a long time and seen the many who were casualties of administrative muscle in the past, we know exactly how things work. The mechanics behind these things are never known, nor do they do their work in the cold light of day. Unless anyone is foolish enough to believe Ted, the GC and the BRI actually work openly. Any small loophole will do to get an evolutionist professor out of the game.

And that, my friends, is what really happened.

Okay, this secret taping is illegal in California. This sounds like typical GC dirty tricks. You don't know reality until you have seen the stuff they pull. They get "the right result" by any means necessary. Hopefully these guys sue the church for this illegal wiretapping and entrapment. It was wrong under any circumstances. It is as low a blow as the typical investigations that they do behind the scenes to intimidate and threaten. It will be very interesting to find out who exactly was behind this taping. This lawsuit needs to be filed because this goes way over the line and this kind of good ol boy network politics must be stopped.

The conference s full of administrative cowards who tok the easy way out rather than address the issues.

By agreeing to resign they won't qualify for unemployment benefits. Clever, right?

My source said that the one sentence version of the taped conversation was that La Sierra would be better off in the long run if it, as an institution, severs its ties with the Adventist church.

I do NOT know if this is the actual content of the conversation - this is fourth hand information, albeit from very trustworthy sources.

It is also not clear to me whether the four were secretly taped by someone else, or if one of the participants taped it (it would seem odd for them to tape themselves having such a conversation, however).

It is also not clear to me whether the four were secretly taped by someone else, or if one of the participants taped it (it would seem odd for them to tape themselves having such a conversation, however)

It makes no difference to the legality of the recording if the parties were in a "two-party consent" state - California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington (and possibly one more).

It does make me wonder if Adventism is becoming just a wee bit totalitarian, when one's private conversations and/or activities can be made public if the powers that be deem that to be useful...

And the legal question should not overshadow the moral issue of secretly taping conversations. One wonders as to the mentality of the people who did this - is anything justified if you feel you are doing it for God?

@Professor Kent - I agree with what you just wrote in your last post except for the part where you think Bradley's spirit of contrition is the right one.

What for Kent? Contrition for what? For having a beer? For having a private conversation? And what the hell does Bradley have to lose at this point by NOT being contrite?

Contrition? Seriously? The man devoted his life to La Sierra at below market wages - the ones who should be contrite are the people like Retardo Graham.

Giovanni - if you are really considering turning down a full ride at a real school in favor of paying money at PUC you should have your head examined.

There was/is a very well known "brain drain" at Loma Linda Academy where each year the top two or three students go off to places like Stanford, Claremont, the Ivies, Berkeley, UCLA etc. - and for good reason.

If you're SDA fine - go to church on Saturdays while during the week you spend your time surrounded with intelligent students and world class faculty. Go to a school where the doors of the world will open to you - not one where you will have to bang them down.

Want to do something like work for a top ranked consulting or Wall Street firm after undergrad such as McKinsey or Goldman after undergrad? Good f'ing luck doing that with a 4.0 from PUC.

I don't trust the adventist church, haven't for a long time - and for good reason.

Ethics often takes 2nd place to expediency and political games.

I totally understand why Jesus was a threat to the religion of his day.

He would still be today.

By the way, it was wine at the Weddiing at Cana.

I believe La Sierra will be wonderfully better off if it becomes an independent university. That is not something heretical, but practical and worth thinking through. Many people have talked that as well.

Tamara - agree with you, however I thought a major barrier to independence from the church was $. Can La Sierra survive in its current state without church funding?

Breakups are always messay - that is a discincentive. But ultimately it will be worth it, and I believe that it will be inevitable sometime somewhere, even if its not La Sierra. Look at this from a systems thinking point of view. What is going on is a symptom of a larger picture of what is going on in the SDA church. It can't and wont go on the way it has been. Times are changing. Things will change. It won't be easy, but it will happen. No matter where you are on the spectrum of adventist big things are inevitable - like it or not. Painful and difficult I know. But inevitable. "No turning back, no turning back."

Seems to me they agreed to a policy of conduct when they were hired. If they did not like them then, they should have gone somewhere else. They agreed to the abide by the policies and curriculum that they were to teach. If you lie on your application and misrepresent yourself what happened is right. You can have all of the person beliefs you want for your personal life but you teach the school curriculum. Is it right for public school teachers to teach their beliefs in religion or politics. No, but they do and they are let go if they get complaints from parents and find out that the teacher has not been following the education principles and curriculum.

It is so very easy for a pastor or evangelist to declare what s/he believes about how quick and easy and when God created anything. Any body can say anything like that with "certainty". That's such an easy option with little need for validation or back-up for those who are ready and want to believe what they say, or who already believe it. Compare that to those who live and breathe the realm of ideas professionally. simplistic ideas and just saying something is so with a few prooftexts to back it up just doesn't cut it. Scientists can't play lazy games like many ministers do. They would be dead meat fast if they tried.

Anonymous68432 - Mon, 06/13/2011 - 23:05
"So an employee can be fired for drinking alcohol but not for undermining the church's signature doctrine and only real reason for existing as a separate denomination (for you Spectrumites, I'm referring to the sabbath)? That's so pathetic."

We're not the only ones espousing the seventh-day Sabbath. Sorry about that "only real reason for existing as a separate denomination."

Why does't Adventist just head straight into cult-land where it has been skirting on the edges for a long long time. Let's free those who live on the edges and give them the liberty they deserve but have been reluctant to go there for all the benefits they have experienced that have held them in place.

The rhetoric I have heard from Anonymous 98764321-blast-off-your-mind has been repeated adnauseously forever and increasingly so of recent years. Thinking goes out the window in exchange for mindless conformity to an ideological prescription of beliefs from the past. I want nothing to do with any of that and I've seen the dangers repeatedly.

My prayer is for the pressure to build up increasingly fast so that it all gets sorted out sooner rather than later. There will be fallout and it can't be prevented, but hurry up please so the collateral damage is minimised.

Oh, some portions have headed right off the deep end. I keep getting mailings from the Shepherds Rod loons. I suspect someone with access to old membership records must have shared their list.

Someone who worked in law enforcement roles in the past pointed out that the recording may have violated Federal communications interception laws.

To comply with those laws you need at least one party to the conversation to have provided written assurance that they agreed to the recording (or a warrant or equivalent government authorization). If none of the friends agreed to the recording in writing - which seems likely given the characterisation as "secret recording of a private conversation" - then it seems quite likely to violate Federal laws regardless of which State(s) the conversation occurred in.

One wonders if any of the recording subjects have been or will soon be considering their legal options...

A secret recording by an SDA spy? Sinister and frightening! It’s the spy who should be disciplined! Who was he/she? Who was so lacking in fundamental decency and legal nonce that they listened to this illegal recording? acted upon “evidence” so obtained?

Now that the “resignations” are in the books, (The four men should have had legal advice before they signed anything!) the recording that justified the resignations must be made public if any shred of official credibility is to be salvaged. This “recording scandal” is far worse than anything having to do with censorship, academic freedom, university accreditation, or a theological and scientific dispute regarding the age of the earth. This is an illegal violation of every American’s right to privacy! This right must be defended, in court if need be. And I’m hoping it will.

Now, with the technology we have today - speak and write openly at your peril.

It's probably worse than that - this recording is implied to have been made in a context where privacy was expected by the participants.

Soo when GOd calls you up to judgement and its your turn and he asks you what you've done (according to Ellen White and SDA doctrine) and you say
"Uhh well I was a creationist activist" Do you really think that's going to be enough?
Fundamentalist seem to practice Bible Science more than love and that is a tragedy.

This message is to all on this forum who might believe that La Sierra was established to have its students learn the crafts of drama, sports , and have women as its pastors. All Adventist Schools of higher learning were designed to teach its students the eternal Adventist truths to prepare a people Ans the world foe the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus.

,

LucyFur, Sabbath beers are always sweeter (one of the few things I learned at Southern!)

Also now all of the legal put them in jail. Has anyone mentioned they were drinking and someone could have pocket dialed someone leaving this all on their answering machine. No it is just the sneeky conference people.

I'm waiting for someone to say it was the devil that did the recording. But no, he's on the wrong side. So it must have been an angel. Of course they are recording all the time with their quills and scrolls, so a transcript is easy to get. I'm sure they are up to date with technology so they snuck an invisible cosmic recording device in the room and then shot the recording over to the GC to have a voyeuristic listen to.

--------

no nouse, don't you get it that there are many people who want La Sierra as it is? There are plenty of other Adventist universities for students to choose from if they don't like La Sierra. There are many of us Adventists who value what La Sierra does and stands for and want it to continue as it is. Get your grubby hands off trying to manipulate and control everything in the church to be the way you want it - because many don't want it your way.

By the way, I'm not much interested in the kind of heaven you would want to create with your small minded, manipulative and demanding attitudes!

Anonymouse and others who act like they own La Sierra University and can tell it what to do and how to do it - just listen to yourselves and you might realise your ideas support La Sierra more than you like to admit!
________

So you like the Pepsi Coco-Cola example? Let me put it to you this way. This is a church university! It is not like it is the only university in the world.

> This is La Sierra University. It is not like it is the only Adventist University in the world.

If you listen to a radio station you do not like, do you complain and whine to get them to change?
No, if you do not like what they are saying you change the channel.How come you think you have the right to tell anyone how to run something you do not own?

> If you don't like it, do you complain and whine to get them to change? No, if you don't like what La Sierra is doing you change universities. How come you think you have the right to tell anyone how to run something you do not own? You do not own La Sierra University. Never have, never will.

If you disagree with the universities policies or what the university requires you to teach, go some where else.

> If you disagree with the universities policies or practices or what the university professors teach, go somewhere else.

Who gave you the right to say hire me and I want everything changed to fit me.

> Who gave you the right to say what people who are hired are supposed to say or do?

If you are a student or a teacher and you do not like the school because you think it is limiting the discussion of learning and ideas, go somewhere else!

> If you are someone who doesn't like the university for whatever reason, then go somewhere else. Leave it alone. Who do you think you are to dictate how things should be different when you don't run the place or work there. Butt out!

I think most of those causing the brewhah is people who have left the church and have an axe to grind or are liberal against the fundamentals of the church.

> I think most of those causing the brewhah are people who think they own the church and have an axe to grind or a frozen and rigid in their interpretations of what the church is.

Again please let those who want an Adventist education have a place to go. If you do not like what the school teaches, go somewhere else you have 1000 to 1 the choices someone who wants the Adventist education has.

> Again please let those who want a La Sierra Adventist education have a place to go. If you don not like that the school teachers or what it does, go somewhere else. You have plenty of other choices to get the type of Adventist education you want.

Why do you have so much hate that you want to force the 1 in 1000 to change because you personal don't like it.

> Why do you have so much hate that you want to force La Sierra to change because you personally don't like it?

Just thing about others rights and free speech and their right to chose and live their life how they want. You have plenty of opportunities to do the same.

> Just think about other's rights and free speech and their right to chose and live their life how they want. You have plenty of opportunities to do the same.

... and all of those are just in the last few weeks!

Seems to me that the topic of the conversation is an important aspect of this. To say that this has no connection to the evolution controversy is disingenuous as Dr. Bradley, in his statement, said "I believe that the best way for La Sierra University to come through this fiasco is for a “head to roll.”" And he said "This conversation "has already been mischaracterized and is being used in further attempts to discredit La Sierra University."
Given the way the data from the survey was misused to make the situation at LSU seem worse than it actually is, it seems apparent that this is part of a larger political pogrom against LSU.

Dr Bradley deserves better than this. He is a fine, dedicated gentleman. I wish him all the best.

Shane seems to be praying that this has nothing to do with the ET campaign because he is afraid of the blow-back from his actions. Perhaps he wanted some to be fired but I bet he was surprised they weren't all from the biology department.

The anger, the gloating, the evil surmising, the self justification, the tactics, speak loudly that we all stand in need of redemptive prayer. It is a very sad day. Man right or left is his own wost enemy.

Tom Z.

And yet it moves.

I am so sorry to hear about all of this. I am a graduate of La Sierra as are many of my family members. Both of my parents have worked there. Gary Bradley and Jim Beach are two of the finest men I know. There isn't a person out there who can throw the first stone at someone for something said in private. As to the alcohol? Seriously? If everyone is left out of heaven who has had a glass of alcohol, it might be a bit lonely. My thoughts are with the families as they go through this. I never thought I would say this but I am glad my child has chosen a different University than La Sierra.

Dear Carlton:

When you speak of dying conservative churches, I would probably agree with you if you define conservative as including congregations that are insular and status-quo-oriented, not engaging in outreach while maintaining the theory of truth. But in my experience, I have never known a conservative congregation that is energized about the classic Adventist message, attuned to the great issues in both the world and the church, that is not growing. By contrast, I have seen more than a few theologically liberal and heterodox Adventist congregations which have striven mightily in promoting their agenda to both outsiders and neighboring Adventist churches, which ended up congealing and folding because they either stood for nothing beyond self-accommodating spirituality, or pushed the envelope regarding doctrinal and organizational issues and thus forced church leaders to shut them down.

You ask about the congregations I have served as a pastor:

1. Yes, I believe it is fair to say that by the grace of God and what I hope has been my diligent effort, my congregations have thrived during my tenure as their pastor. At one of them in particular, more people attended on Sabbath than were listed as members on the books--quite remarkable for most churches. Like most congregations, mine have experienced the usual challenges of personality conflicts and similar roadblocks to mission, but I am happy to say each church I left was stronger as a result of the course we were able to set during the time I served there.

2. No, none of my congregations ever experienced divisions along theological, liturgical, or lifestyle lines while I served as their pastor.

3. Since I am presently awating reassignment to the field following the completion of my studies at the Seminary, I do not have a "current" congregation.

God bless!

Pastor Kevin Paulson

Anonymous 3357a,

What you said is unfortunately true. When I was in my early twenties, I was quite surprised at how many students drank and faculty too. I wonder if PUC has a similar policy.

Shane

Speculation re: the timing, manner, issues non-disclosed; (surely no one believes attestations of why something is NOT done in lieu of ANY credible for-cause reference) will continue to run like wildfire. Undoubtedly the principals are not unaware that collateral damage secondary to this incindiery (seeming intentional) trial (and verdict/sentence) by a vocal mis/uninformed and blindly faithful constituency will do the dirty work, set the stake and strike match.
Mt 27;24?

On the one hand, one group rightfully bemoans apparent sacrifice of scrutiny, transparency, veracity, academic autonomy or credibility, and undoubtedly ethics, morality, legality, conscience regarding personal moral agency
while on the other a large and smug contingent is elatedly (and in dangerous, prideful err?)
mixing up the (non-alcoholic but celebratory) punch, self-righteously believing and extolling
that LSU (or whatever cause du jour) is deserving of exactly what they are receiving, via innuendo and rumor, mis-information and telling silence?

If there are certain personnel that require censure for whatever reason (I'm not making value judgment), why do we throw the other faculty (and current nearly 3000 students, as well past alumni) so publicly onto the pyre?
Is the REAL underlying issue that heinous it cannot be spoken?
Or so tenuous, if it were spoken it would be laughably trifling?
Truth will set free...lets have it.
Truth from LSU; truth from GC
and from whatever intermediates.
I doubt we will get it from the principals, if they have all duly signed nondisclosure.
I dare suggest there are elements suggested in this thread where issues have been hijacked for other causes...on both sides. Truth would also call some quiet from these most vociferous and ravening wolves.

"For my part,
whatever anguish of spirit it may cost,
I am willing to know the whole truth;
to know the worst, and provide for it."
Patrick Henry

Fear of truth is born from either shame of it or contempt for it.
The lie is like a fire;
Shame denies, minimizes, attempts extinguish
and so doing, immolates.
Contemptuous instead embellish, foment, fanning scorched earth
and sacrifice all.

Truth sits unscathed on the fulcrum unmoved;
yet ever on the scale

One thing is certain; the current strife and jealousy, gossip and failure of love is no less a thing than, say, drunkenness, or even licentious behavior. And that, sadly, indicts much in this very thread...
as well the current somewhat schizoid dichotomy of our corporate leadership in reference to pardons for their pets in contrast to the rejection of their scapegoats.

Michaela Jones makes some good points.

As I have been watching this terrible thing unfold for several days I have the following thoughts:

- Based on my understanding of what has transpired, I do not think there is a direct link to the evolution controversy. But I do think there is an indirect link, in that LSU is under the microscope and because of this, they need to very aggressively do damage control in all areas.

- In Scripture we see a God who is amazingly tolerate of terrible behavior; Stuff that is way worse than words that are disloyal to an institution or drinking a glass of wine. I am talking things like idol worship and child sacrifice. (reading the major OT Prophets right now for my daily devotion.) Yet for all of those terrible actions, God seems to keep calling his people back, looking to redeem them and restore them rather than banish them.

Now here we are as SDA’s seeing ourselves as the NT version of God’s chosen people and there is no sense of grace or redemption or forgiveness for these four individuals. What kind of people have we become?

- In the last few days we have seen two significant scandals unfold in our church Pipim’s fall and resignation and this one. The contrast in responses to the two scandals has been remarkable. With Pipim, the great majority of the liberals while glad he was silenced for his teaching were very sad for him and his family wished him well and prayed for his redemption. The conservatives for the most part took the position that he should be forgiven and quickly restored. This for unfaithfulness to his wife.

Then comes this scandal where the only specific thing we know is that one person drank a glass of wine. The liberals are again sympathetic, perhaps more so than with Pipim and the conservatives have no sympathy and are celebrating with glee the fall of these four people. I guess I just am having a hard time understanding why in the minds of the conservatives the sin of drinking a glass of wine is so much greater than adultery.

Finally: There is more than one Steve responding on this forum. They are not all me. I always sign my full name.

In the grip of grace

Steve Moran

The following was attached to the version of Dr. Bradley's letter that I received:

Additional note from Dr. Bradley to me to further explain the note above after I asked him if I could post this:

If you were to post it I don't think a lot would be lost since I have distributed it fairly widely on campus.

My only concern is that many read "secret recording" as diabolical whereas this was an accidental recording and distribution by one of the conversants. Thus it was more "Three Stooges" than "James Bond".

If you would add this explanation then posting would be no problem.

My only concern is that many read "secret recording" as diabolical whereas this was an accidental recording and distribution by one of the conversants. Thus it was more "Three Stooges" than "James Bond".

In other words this whole scandal was completely their fault. They broke their contract, and accidently recorded the whole event. Now the real question is how and why was it spread around.

Shane

Some people think that Dr Pipim's sex was with a young man, who was stalking and harassing him, creating a climate of pressure that Dr Pipim finally succumbed too, although he has tried hard to prevent this from happening.
Shouldn't we be more sympathetic to pastor Pipim since he was pressured?
Would it have been easier for them to accept him back if it was a woman?
Does anyone suspect that pastor Pipim was set up?
I don't know what to think.

A True Story:

I was a member of the Board of Trustees at LLU. The dean of the School of Dentistry was a classmate of mine from the fifth grade on through two years of college. The day before the meeting of the Board, I visited the dean in his office. He told me this story: A fulltime faculty member was having domestic difficulty. The husband and wife had a serious argument. The husband left the house drove to his dental assistant's home. Parked the car out front where it remained the entire night. The wife's father had hired a private detective to monitor his son-in-laws comings and goings. The father brought photoes of the car in front of the dental assistant's apartment to the dean. The dean questioned the faculty member. The faculty member told the following story: Yes I left the house angry. I tried all the motels in Redlands and they were all full. I didn't want to go home still angry so I went to my dental assistan'ts home and spent the night on the sofa. There was absolutely no sexual involvement.

The dean asked me what I would do: I said: "I would fired the guy!" The dean asked why? I said: "If that fellow took that risk with absolutely no benefit, he is too dumb to teach in my school!" The dean laughed and said, Thanks Tom. The faculty member was asked to resign. The saga doesn't end there but my story must. Tom Z.

Well said Tyler.

Secret recordings, spies, provocateurs and thought police: all authoritarian societies have certain bleak realities in common. I saw it happen at Southern, I saw it play out in the lives of individuals who cowered in the dark, who resorted to secret mailing addresses to received Spectrum Magazine and other ideological contraband and had to keep secrets from wives for fear they'd snitch on them. It was the same authoritarian spirit whose foul breath made me request that my membership be dropped 30 years ago. It all brings to mind the gay English poet Swinburn's 19th century anti-Christian diatribe:

Thou hast conquered, o pale Galilean
and the world has grown grey with thy breath.

Can you trust the word of a man who drinks alcohol in public against the Bible and God's church? I think not but I am just one person.
Wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging.

This whole thing is a travesty, from the foolish and ignorant zealots at Educate Truth beginning the witch hunt in the first place to this tragic turn of events. I am outraged by this cowardly and short-sighted action by the board, and intend to write a letter telling them so. I also plan to write to Gary Bradley and the other men who were wrongly terminated and let them know how deeply I appreciate their contributions to La Sierra University. I hope many of you will do likewise. I fear that unless the board is bombarded with letters censuring this action, the witch hunts will continue unabated, and more dedicated, intelligent, courageous and masterful teachers like Dr. Bradley will be sacrificed.

Much as I abhor the authoritarianism of fundamentalism, I have to agree with Kevin Paulson when he says:

"I have said it before on this forum, and I will keep on saying it. The secret of religion is not adaptability, but transcendence. Reduce religion to just another expression of the human spirit, and it ceases to be religion. Once the testimony of the church becomes a mirror rather than the measure of its surroundings, its claim on the conscience is lost. Successful professionals have better things to do with three choice weekend hours than to waste them in pursuit of a faith no more predictable than their stock portfolio or the latest political news."

Faith can survive the inconvenient, hard facts of Evolution--as the majority of Western Christians demonstrate--but it cannot survive the loss of 'transcendence.' The problem is that once you leave the safety of the fundamentalist security bubble, faith enters a Kierkegaardian universe where subjective conviction is the only objective truth to be found, and to many of us, that is not an attractive option. To those of us who're rationalists, denying the factual, falsifiable world in order to hold on to our faith, is not an option. Our dilemma is that while we're willing to believe beyond the facts, we rarely see anything 'beyond the facts' to believe in. In the end, I fear, the Kevin Paulsons of the the world will be the last Christians standing.

How long will it take for ANN to report this?

Wow, all this flaming of each other...I would expect this on digg or 4chan, but on a Christian blog? Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. That being said, (and on topic to the story itself) it's pretty common knowledge around the LaSierra student sphere that some administrative changes had to be made. Whether these ones were correct or not will be seen in the future. Remember, the reasons for these choices are SPECULATION until confirmed by someone who knows the full situation makes a statement (most likely Dr. Wisbey with a change this substantial). Remember what they say about those who assume...

Don't stifle Tom Zwemer! Living in Knoxville, I need all the entertainment I can get.

Yea, for Tom Zwemer!

Do you guys have any idea how much professors get paid at La Sierra? Much below market wages! Not to mention it is located in Southern California. Choosing to teach at La Sierra is more about serving and NOT earning. I don't think it must come to this point and has to be dealt with this way. I hope no lawsuits are filed against the church. OK, cast the first stone, but at the end of the day, we all lose.

So, our students should not be taught to think? Should they not know about evolution so that they can make it in Graduate School or in any teaching capacity? Because a professor teaches a theory is that reason to be fired!! I think more it should be a reason to applaud those professors. The reason we send our kids to school is to teach them to think not to be robots especially at this age. Did any of those professors ever say I believe in Evolution not Creationism. When I was in school at LSU I took a World Religions class and learned about Buddhism, etc. Should those professors have been fired, too? Biology is a science not a religion. Teach Religion in the Religion classes. Teach the different sciences in the Science classes. Telling our students about the theories that in reality exist is not telling them what to believe. One last statement, politics exist everywhere, and that's what this is...Politics, not truth!

It's time to start raising funds for two legal actions: one against the GC and Board of Trustees of La Sierra University for knowingly participating in illegal surveillance, and another against the character assassins at Educate Truth. I'd happily contribute to seeing all of them rot in jail.

It's time to start raising funds for two legal actions: one against the GC and Board of Trustees of La Sierra University for knowingly participating in illegal surveillance

Are you kidding? Did you not read what Bradley wrote? He said one of his friends recorded the whole thing accidently. Sorry, the GC or Board of Trustees didn't have anything to do with what he and his friends did.

Shane

I am not a lawyer, but secretly taping a private conversation is illegal in and of itself. Disseminating it is even worse.

The turn of events in LSU over this past weekend are disconcerting to me for the following reasons:
1] Our 2 daughters are graduates of LSU.
2] We have been residents of La Sierra in Riverside over the past 34 years.
3] We have been members of the LSU Church for about 34 years.
4] We support LSU through small donations periodically.
5] From what I have heard through the years, Gary Bradley has always been one of the top professors in LSU. We were classmates [biology majors] in PUC the 4 years we were there [1959-63].

His "To: My treasured friends and colleagues" letter is one of the best of its kind that I have ever seen and read. I laud him for his expression of remorse. I laud him for his honesty and candor. To me, this letter is his first step in the right direction toward his utmost attempt "to earn redemption".

Godspeed and blessings to him.

Honesto C. Pascual

Well, if that' true...I refer back to tom zwemer's story; but I have a feeling there is more to the story

Steve Moran,

I see this is not a reasoned discussion since I asked you to what extent the factors I mentioned play, and you chose to translate as me giving one side more grace than another.

Since you didnt respond to my query intelligently I am wondering how your perspective is constructed since following the points being made are bypassed in the rush to your own perspective.

I will condense the points further in the hope you will respond on point.

You contended that Liberals have been equally sympathetic to both Pipim and Bradley (the underlying assumption that even though Pipim is conservative Liberals responded with loving kindness) whereas conservatives give their conservative guy who committed a MUCH WORSE sin a pass while dancing that the liberal professor got canned for drinking.)

I asked to what extent your opinion of the liberal and conservative response was formed , taking into account that one is reported by all accounts to have self confessed and self resigned whereas the other neither self confessed nor self resigned for actions he says he is very sorry for and will endeavor to correct.

To which you replied;
A. that no one knows and especially me for sure, who knew what when about self confessing
(as if that wasnt a given for everyone here. No one knows. Certainly I never claimed to know the specific particulars about that. Your lack of knowledge didnt stop you from making assumptions about the motivations of liberal and conservative posters did it?)

B. That I was personally bothered that the professor didnt confess.
Quote: "As I recall, the Bible is full of stories of people who did not repent until they got caught. While it may bother you, it certainly did not seem to bother God." (another mindless response to the simple query I was making.

C. The oblivious icing on the cake here.
Quote: "What troubles me most is that in effect you seem to be justifying the lack of grace for a wine drinker and super grace for someone who committed adultery."

Asking what part Pipim confessing while Bradley didn't played in your perceptions of liberals being sympathetic and Conservatives not, is translated as me having less grace for drinking wine than adultery?

If you are in the grip of grace you should ease up, its cutting off the flow of blood to your brain.

I think you've helped me make my case, Marc. Thanks. Perhaps you should expose yourself to more of the church than your narrow circle of friends; you are quite wrong in your assertion.

Terry

Steve Moran:

1. "...should he have just walked away from the church and started his own?" I might have read it wrong, but isn't that eventually what happened?

2. Didn't mean to offend, Steve - just asking a question. What I find a bit offensive is your suggestion that those who are bucking the church are like Jesus, and that church leadership is like the Pharisees, Sadducees and Sanhedrin. Have you really ascribed the role of Jesus to those who are constantly critiquing the church here? Don't forget the "accuser of the brethren" was pretty good at that, too - so be careful in your analogies.

Honestly, I have all kinds of room for a variety of perspectives, but one of the key characteristics of a church is shared belief. Otherwise, we might as easily all become Baptists or Methodists, b/c doctrine wouldn't matter a bit. My question remains: when you find yourself constantly picking away at the foundational beliefs of a church, why not start one that aligns with your own beliefs? If you do not truly consider the SDA church to be the remnant church, what harm is there in branching out? (See above critique by another Moran, for example.)

There was no question, in Jesus day, that Israel was THE people of God. There was no other body. I am glad to see that you consider the Adventist church to be THE church in your response. But not everybody here does, and that is who I am addressing. If we are not THE church, then form it.

Again, didn't mean to offend, but I'm certain that my questions about this process have as much validity as the questions raised by those you agree with, Steve.

Terry

Disingenuousness, thy name is Shane Hilde.

Your giddiness is evident in each of your typically condescending and frequently inaccurate posts. You didn’t need to say it…a few minutes at ET and a quick sampling of your commentary here is more than enough circumstantial evidence. Fortunately for you, though, premeditated ignorance and public displays of self-satisfaction aren’t a crime. Yet. I’m working on it, though.

On to this “tragic mistake” you allude to. Which is the “tragic mistake?” A sip of wine? Or the accidental release of the recording? Or, as I take it from the collective line of reasoning you’ve displayed thus far, is the “tragic mistake” simply failing to heel to the whim of those on this crusade to “protect” the “church” and “our weak-minded university students” from “spooky evolution voodoo?” (I’m paraphrasing a bit there, granted. For those of you visiting from Educate Truth, you can take a moment to look up “paraphrase” on Wikipedia. We’ll wait).

I do believe, as referenced by another poster, that administrative changes needed to occur…as long as the goal was to survive. Disassociation from the church is not really a practical option, and LSU would evaporate if it couldn’t patch things up with the GC. As a former student, I would be disappointed to see it go, but some part of me certainly fantasized about the university going out with dignity rather than succumbing to underhanded political maneuvering and institutional blackmail. I can’t help but wonder if, by accepting his forced transition gracefully, Dr. Bradley’s sacrifice will allow the “heat” to dissipate while others take up the mantle and teach proper science. Or is this the beginning of LSU’s devolution to a Bible college? Bradley et al. didn’t shoot themselves in the foot – they jumped in front of an assassin’s bullet. Will it be enough to save the LSU I attended and loved? Only time will tell. Let’s hope the bloodthirsty pack of wolves that demanded this “cleansing” gets distracted by some other shiny object, so LSU can go back to rebuilding—and evolving—to truly serve future generations of SDA students looking for an actual intellectual AND spiritual education, one that demonstrates by example that that differences of opinion won’t put a premature end to a distinguished, decades-long career.

This is really quite offensive to those of us whose lives were ruined by alcohol, LucyFur. As you drink your beer and mock the Adventist church for its standards - calling it stupid - you should bear in mind that many thousands of lives have been made better by this "circle of stupid." It's not stupid to those who were beaten by alcoholic fathers, to those whose relatives were mowed down by drunk drivers, or for those of us who nearly made a shipwreck of our lives because of it.

Mock if you must, be exercise a little caution, let you yourself unwittingly step into a "circle of stupid."

Terry

On 06/14/2011, at 05:13, Kevin D. Paulson mentioned the supposedly-emptying churches of “the Episcopalians, the Methodists, the Unitarian-Universalists, and other theologically liberal communities...” because of their choices to "adapt."

Actually, these progressive churches, embracing present truth, have enrolled my better-educated former-SDA cousins, my young-adult offspring (baptised in SDA churches), and the offspring of many SDA friends. Last week I visited the Episcopalian church one of them attends. It was nearly full of young families. Why? Because SDA officialdom has not adapted to the scientific facts but is wandering in an ideological desert, having adapted instead to the rightist ideological partisanship that afflicts a major part of current American culture.