It's embarrassing that any members of Congress are participating in this sort of unreasoned, fear-based nonsense. For it to be one of the few Adventists in higher office makes it doubly so.

Why not simply channel Glen Beck through 3Angels since they both sound alike. It's so easy to cry "the end of the world is coming" but how many have the privilege of running to the country and surviving? One would have to have planned years in advance to have sufficient food and other sources to live independently.

Did Glen Beck, with all his prognostications predict the Japanese earthquake??

I think the black dog taking a crap in front of the farmers says it all to me.

This old gal is certainly not fearful. Of what?

How many are acquainted with the Mormon belief on storage of food and weapons? It exceeds E. G. White/ Roscoe. Tom Z

Jared... it is important to reach urban centers but one does not have to live there. I live in a city and would feel much better off in the country. Too dependent on other people here.

It is hoped that everyone who moves into the country will be able to walk, as the gas prices may not lessen for quite some time. Good luck unloading that house before you buy another. Not exactly a good time to make such a move, that is, unless you have unlimited resources.

I'm sure people thought Lot was the lucky one for choosing the cities of the plain and Abram was shorted for taking the country property. The rest is history. I'm sure there were some who thought that the early Christians were crazy for leaving the capital city of Jerusalem. The rest is history. And Jesus went to the wilderness (the country) to prepare for his mission. The rest is history. Moses left Egypt to the wilderness (the country) and the rest is history. In today's world, the advice to prepare for judgement And bad times sounds like great advice to me. If I move to the country and nothing happens, I just get fresh air and peace and quiet. If I stay in the city and bad things come, then I am potentially in a bad situation.

If the choice is hunker down in the hills to wait for the end to the civil unrest or do what you can to help the victims, I wonder where Jesus would be? I know Jesus is not bound by our false dichotomies, but I exaggerate to make a point. What we need is a balanced approach to unfolding events and not extremism. While Jesus did not commit himself to the people (John 2:24-25), He did not abandon them either. (Matthew 4:23)

Being prepared for the worst is not "fear-mongering". "Transition towns" are springing up everywhere with preparations for community gardens, etc. when hard times hit. To scoff at this scenario is to show your level of denial and head in the sand.

Recall that EGW advised that the SDA colleges be in the country, away from the city's influence.

Now: 100 years later they nearly all are in the heart of cities. One cannot move "away" from sin. It is in the heart, not in the location. The old saying at PUC was it was "20 miles from any known sins" but with the automobile, it was very accessible (even those once-dangerous roads), but there was plenty of "sin" to be found right on the hill.

"Moving out of the city" sounds good, until you start thinking about it. What happens when everyone moves out of the city to the 'country'? Currently, I live outside the city limits of one America's large cities. Just ten years ago, there was nothing around here except bush and cows. It is now a bustling incorporated city and a part of the larger metropolitan area. As Elaine noted above, our colleges were in isolated rural areas; look at where they are today. Even Southern is now located near a busy urban area, Chatanooga. Don't let 5 O' Clock catch you on the highway that connects you to the Interstate 75. Should Southern move?

It is beyond dispute that larger population centers are more affected by disasters, unrest, etc. But moving to the suburbs in droves makes the suburbs cities or expansions of major cities; and if you keep going further, then eventually, you'll just have expanding cities. Consider the environmental impact of this: a longer commute back to the city where you most likely will retain employment; more gasoline for the car; more pollution; cutting down more trees to build roads, housing developments and malls and infrastructure. So moving to the country may come in conflict with the obligation of Christians to be good stewards of God's creation.

How about making greener cities, actively promote and work towards a just society and reduce inequities, thereby reducing strife, and at the same time ensure that urban centers can adequately deal with disasters.

Al,

The opposite is really the truth. Living in the cities or suburbs sounds good until it is really put in perspective. Do any of you really think America is going to go on forever? No country in the history of the earth has gone on for ever. Even a country as great as the United States of America is going to have problems. Where do you want to be located, in the city where you rely on others for EVERYTHING? How many days of food do you think are on store shelves? What happens when the trucks stop rolling? What happens if there is an interruption in water or electricity, or both? What happens when gas prices soar? Are you prepared to be self sufficient and take care of yourself and your family? What do you think is going to happen when Americans find out that they can't be taken care of by the government and that they have been sold a bill of goods? And we have. If you put all of the pieces of the puzzle together, you will find that the world is a house of cards and it is about to fall! Do any of you really think that either party, the Democrats or the Republicans, or both working together (an impossible dream), are going to be able to solve the current problems we are in? Do you realize what a precarious situation our money and economy is in? And with our problems, the rest of the world relies on us and is so interlinked with us. We are in a very interesting time right now. Now is the time to prepare for what is coming. The prudent are preparing.

"There are not many, even among educators and statesmen, who comprehend the causes that underlie the present state of society. Those who hold the reins of government are not able to solve the problem of moral corruption, poverty, pauperism, and increasing crime. They are struggling in vain to place business operations on a more secure basis. If men would give more heed to the teaching of God’s word, they would find a solution of the problems that perplex them." – {CCh 38.3}

Rich, I am just one person. I see through a glass darkly. It is not my place to convince anyone, that is the Holy Spirit's job. So I put this out for others to consider. Take what you want and trash the rest. There are much better explanations of this information than mine. Lack of people believing that tough times are coming does not affect me at all. I pray that others will see their condition with their eyes and their hearts. Unfortunately history is not full of people who see what is coming and prepare. Most react to circumstances after it happens, often to their detriment. Consider Noah and how many believed that message. We are told that we are living in times similar to before the flood. Maranatha!

Did anyone ever do a census on who runs to the woods? neo-nazis, KKK, "self-supporting" SDA zealots, and an entire alphabet of kooks. Of all things Paul demanded to go to Rome while Nero was on the throne. He could have run into the Sinia desert and lived on grasshppers and honey. Tom Z.

M7.14 said on Tue, 03/15/2011
"I think your logic is faulty. If Jesus was present at the time of the ark, do you suppose he would have stayed outside and allowed himself to be destroyed with the unbelievers? I think he would have entered into the ark with loyal, obedient Noah.

The Bible makes it clear that an end is coming. It also says that not everyone is going to be saved. In fact it says that the majority take the wide path to destruction. Jesus wants to be with the people and he wants them to be saved, but the Bible is clear that the world will end and sin will end permanently. That means to me that people will be abandoned by God, to indulge in their sin. All without him.

It seems warm and fuzzy to think that Jesus will always stay with sinners, but the Bible makes it clear that he won't. Destruction is coming. I don't know when. But decisions need to be made, for or against rebellion. Those who side with Satan's rebellion against God are going to be destroyed. Those who accept the free gift of life and who obediently follow God will be saved." M7.14 - Tue, 03/15/2011

I'm puzzled, M7.14. Are we supposed to leave for the country because of end-times persecution, or because the social/economic order is deteriorating, or because God's going to destroy the evil city dwellers & even good people who are still there will be destroyed too?

Hopeful, your pseudonym describes my sentiment completely. I am hopeful that the good people of the cities will be protected from harm and that those who are not now trusting in God, will have a change of heart and surrender their lives to follow God. I spend a great amount of time serving the disadvantaged. I hope that my service leads them to want a better life.

Al, how about you moving to San Bernardino off of E Street near downtown? You probably can get a really great deal on a house there. You can count the gunshots at night when you cannot sleep.

“Did anyone ever do a census on who runs to the woods? neo-nazis, KKK, "self-supporting" SDA zealots, and an entire alphabet of kooks...”

As a 'former kook' who ‘ran to the woods’ I can affirm that there are indeed some colourful characters living in remote wilderness areas: Criminals on the run, dope growers, recluses, fringe hippies and ultra conservative SDAs.

Community Outreach Wilderness Style
Try getting the locals to:
•Convert to a vegan diet when they subsist on deer, eel and home brew.
•Read the' KJV only' and home school when many have limited literacy.
•Wear a suit and tie to church (in ‘SOP approved’ dark colours only –yes, we had a sermon at our little church in the wildwoods touching on this important issue).
•Attend a ‘One World Order/Globalism’ evangelistic campaign if there isn’t going to be a sausage sizzle ( a free barbeque with meat and beer).

On the plus side, the ban on wedding rings wouldn’t be a problem, as most local couples aren’t married anyway. The district’s wiccans wouldn’t have a problem with the long-skirt dress code and I’d wager that many of the guys living in the backwoods wouldn’t have a problem with 'no showering and shaving on Sabbath'.

City Outreach
Try convincing your friends back in the city:
•to leave their jobs in the city and rely on state welfare as a main source of income due to a serious lack of employment opportunities.
• to share a property boundary with a gun-toting hillbilly who co-habits with goats and chickens.
•to grow their own spelt.
•to subscribe to the belief that people who avoid eating mustard are more likely to be translated.

Do I sound bitter? I’m not. Just laughing at myself in retrospect.

Anne

30 years ago we lived in rural Columbia County, Ga. Our farm was on the highest spot in the county. We could see Clark Hill dam some 15 miles away. We could also see dots of white smoke across the landscape. Our younger son went to the local high school three miles away. One evening standing on the front porch, I said, I wonder why all the white smoke in mid summer coming from that one spot about a mile away. My son, said. "You don't want to know and you sure don't want to go down that dirt road to find out."

Tom Z

Hi Tom

It sounds like you understand wilderness living from personal experience.

Our first summer in the backwoods was the summer of ‘Black Saturday’ in 2009, where 173 people were burned to death in horrific forest fires that raged across Victoria, Australia. Whole towns were burned to the ground. It was a natural disaster of holocaustic proportions. We had only been living in the region for a few weeks, fresh from city living. Our home was surrounded by miles of tinder-dry forest on all sides and there was only one road of escape out of the area. Our home was so remote, that we couldn’t get a local radio signal to keep up with developments or evacuation warnings. Our cell phone didn’t work at the house. We had no communication with the outside world. As we were newbies from the city - we didn’t even have a fire plan. When the threat of fire was at its highest, we decided to high-tail it out of the area and stay at a motel in the closest city 4 hours drive away, until the worst of the threat passed. With the exception of menacing hot winds carrying ash over the district the devastating fires didn’t reach our area that summer.

Next summer we were prepared – well , as prepared as we could be: if we couldn’t get out of the area in time, the plan was to go down to the river and submerge ourselves in the water until fire front passed . Yep. That was the plan. That summer there were 76 forest fires that threatened our area. I was forever watching the horizon -wondering how I’d get our animals to safety if we had to flee and wondering if my husband, who was out fighting the fires, would come home that night. As you no doubt understand, living in the wilderness is not as romantic as it sounds.

Fresno, where Elaine lives, also has people who need support and love. Neighbors who are dying for someone to care. When things get worse, if they do, we need to be where all the people are, not out in the country saving ourselves.

Our lives won't amount to a 'hill of beans' if we have plenty of stored food in the country while people in the city are hurting terribly both spiritually and physically.

"A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge; but the simple pass on, and suffer for it."

In 1965, with trepidation, I drove around the Watts area of L.A. after the riots. This is what happens in the U.S. when tensions reach the boiling point. I've seen it. It was indistinguishable from a war zone. I was also in Kansas City during the riots of 1968.

I would say I have a healthy amount of fear of being in the middle of something like that, and I would do anything to prevent a child from being trapped in a situation like that. It's not like it hasn't happened before and can't happen again.

It seems to me that the temperature of the human collective is increasingly feverish. In passing, I note that we are, for all intents and purposes, in another war now. Another war.
The new normal.

Back when I was an Adventist, we could have lived for two years on the stuff in our garage. I joked about us being Mormons. We had a huge garden, a garbage can full of rolled oats, five-gallon buckets of peanut butter, 40 lbs. of dates, and a food dehydrator that could do a 40-lb. box of fruit at a time. I canned my own grape juice in beer bottles. We had two freezers full of food, and I canned 80 quarts of every kind of fruit & vegetable I could get my hands on.

This had nothing to do with fear, it just had to do with feeding our family and taking advantage of the abundance that surrounded us in Washington State. We weren't what you call survivalists, though I can see no evil in providing for one's family in emergencies. I look back on that time fondly.

This is just what we did; it was what lots of people back then did.

I don't think we have to pit ministering to people in the cities against providing safe homes for our children. There are those who feel called to city ministry. Others with children may want to live in more retired locations.

Small towns have schools. It's like we have this compulsion to polarize things to the nth degree here; no suggestion ever made by Adventism can have any validity in any reasoned way. To do so is fact-challenged fear mongering conspiracy theorizing.

Besides the "Soviet Union" reference, what other facts are being challenged, I wonder?

Is it enough to just invoke Glenn Beck, label and dismiss?

Dave Westbrook graciously didn't call Alex fact challenged.

Can we maybe dispense with the labels?

That's why I suggest talking about this in a reasoned, rather than a polarized, hair-splitting way, Elaine.

Here's my favorite Alden Thompson quote again. He's talking about Scripture, but the same dynamic applies to EGW, I think:

Finally, I would suggest that the real reason for the war between faith and reason is the powerful impulse from both right and left to take Scripture as a final and absolute revelation of God. Both extremes assume that if God were to reveal himself, it must be in absolute terms. The left rejects such a position and the right defends it, and neither one is really hearing Scripture.
http://www.atoday.com/magazine/2002/03/adventists-and-education-can-marr...

If one takes the Bible and EGW as absolute revelations of God, there's no end to the grief one gets oneself into.

Where does the city end? Where does the country begin? Is a small town "the country?" Would Ellen White approve if I lived 200 yards from a small town? Would 250 yards be better?

I don't think reductio ad absurdum arguments are effective. They speak to me more of prejudice.

Less do I think invoking Glenn Beck to discredit someone is an effective argument, rather it seems like mere propaganda to me.

Propaganda Techniques: Transfer
Transfer is another of the seven main propaganda terms first used by the Institute for Propaganda Analysis in 1938. Transfer is often used in politics and during wartime. It is an attempt to make the subject view a certain item in the same way as they view another item, to link the two in the subjects mind. ... In politics, transfer is most often used to transfer blame or bad feelings from one politician to another of his friends or party members, or even to the party itself. When confronted with propaganda using the transfer technique, we should question the merits or problems of the proposal or idea independently of convictions about other objects or proposals.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0111500/proptech.htm

Erwin, I suppose the people before the flood did not like Noah's message. But did that absolve them of hearing it and responding to it? No. The Bible says judgement is coming. Conditions indicate it could be very soon. We all have a couple choices. We can get ready for it or ignore it. Ignoring it could be perilous. God has a message of love. We are all sinners. We deserve death. Jesus came to Earth to live a perfect life and died in our place so we can live with Him eternally. He offers that free gift of eternal life to each of us. In return, He asks us to love Him and our fellow men.

If God speaks, must it be in absolute terms? Not to me.

Joel Skousen on Strategic Relocation:
http://www.joelskousen.com/strategic.html

Richard Louv on Last Child in the Woods: Saving our Children from Nature Deficit Disorder:
http://richardlouv.com/

Leave No Child Inside:
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/240/

I think it's a false dilemma to pit preaching the gospel against providing a healthy environment for our children. We all do the best we can with the circumstances we find ourselves in, and different people have different spiritual emphases.

It takes a universe
to make a child both
in outer form and inner
spirit. It takes
a universe to educate
a child. A universe
to fulfill a child.
– Thomas Berry

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/people-in-nature/200811/the-giftedne...

Come on, I am sure that congressman Bartlett knows a lot more about this topic than all of us. He knows many things we don't, and that's the way it should be. Do you think that Daniel didn't know a lot while working for three different governments? Of course. The fact is if we don't believe inspired warnings, how can we appreciate the words of a knowledgeable brother? Congressman Bartlett is doing his duty with God and with us.