I'm just so happy!!! loved this.

Hahaha, I wish you could've been. That would've been awesome! We were trying to get as diverse a group as possible.

This has to be one of the coolest things I've ever seen an Adventist University do... Kudos to the choreographer of the flash mob and to the President for being such a good sport!!

This is absolutely fabulous! Amazing for student morale! Big Cheers for Dr. Beitz!!!

Isn't that a typo Your Friend...didn't you mean Souther is a riot?

"I have seen the results of these fanciful views of God, in apostasy, spiritualism, and free-lovism. The free love tendency of these teachings was so concealed that at first it was difficult to make plain its real character. Until the Lord presented it to me, I knew not what to call it, but I was instructed to call it unholy spiritual love." {Testimonies Volume 8 page 292.3}

"It is true that spiritualism is now changing its form and, veiling some of its more objectionable features, is assuming a Christian guise...
Even in its present form, so far from being more worthy of toleration than formerly, it is really a more dangerous, because a more subtle, deception. While it formerly denounced Christ and the Bible, it now professes to accept both. But the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God, but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God's justice, His denunciations of sin, the requirements of His holy law, are all kept out of sight..." {The Great Controversy page 558.1}

"The things you have described . . . the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit." {Maranatha (Jesus is Coming Soon) page 234.1}

So joyful.....there IS great joy in sharing.

I've found myself obsessed with Ellen White and her life. I read whatever i can get my hands on, that concerns her or her times. I try to analyze myself as to the reason why. I can see that she was very much my idenity but now I make Christ my identity. I don't see that I will ever be denuded of the Ellen identity, for that was part of what makes me, me. I truly want to understand it minus the mythical aura.

Through my reading I'm seeing some patterns emerging and one of those is, Ellen was much more a product of her times, than we give her credit for and I would go so far as to say, entirely. I see her riding the waves of the American19th century societal changes, all with her strong religious undertones, and then claimed originality.

When she got on the spiritualism bandwagon, spiritualism was a huge rage at that time but it didn't last all that long. Also at that time in America, the Roman Catholic church was still very much the boogeyman. She wrote about spiritualism in this narrow context. She still truly believed that they were on the cusp of the ending of the world and any changes observed, were considered great signs. Ellen, from what was in her immediate environment, visualized what the last scenes of earth's history would be; and that would be the joining of Roman Catholicism and now the rampant spiritualism. She said she was 'shown' but I see nothing to lead me to believe that she was anywhere close to reality. It's unbelievable and shocking to see that there are still those who take Ellen's fanciful proclamations to lead them to thing that there is still a spiritualism boogey man behind every bush.

What an embarrassment! An abomination...a disgrace! And this is the "most spiritual" college we have? God help us! He's going to have to raise someone else up to finish the work!

Tammy==> "God help us!"

God help us indeed!

... to know the joy that true spirituality brings with it.
... to be delivered from the oppression that equates exuberance with apostasy.
... to experience WITHIN the Adventist church the freedom to express that joy.

I remember the 80's at Southern (the time frame in which Tammy knew it) well.
I recall experiences which demonstrated the internalized inhibitions the students carried against any form of demonstrated exuberance.
So it is not particularly surprising to see her reaction.

One can only hope (and pray the prayer of hope) that she, and others like her, will be able to make the same journey from fear to joy that Alden Thompson describes in his book, Escape from the Flames. I highly recommend it.

I'm sorry, but I can't help but be extremely disappointed when I see this. Granted, I expected it, but I'm still saddened that such a negative outlook on this came from my own church. I organized this flash-mob, and I can tell you that my intentions were not to offend, but to uplift the student body and faculty (if you look closely, our very own Chaplain and Dean took part, among other faculty). The choreography was about the tamest that's ever been done in a flash-mob and we used a Christian song that I'm overjoyed to hear is stuck in people's heads. It's about happiness, and grace, and to be perfectly honest, we could always use a pick-me-up in school-spirit. Let us remember that "joy" is one of the easily forgotten fruits of the spirit.

We are in a generation where young people are being raised on the technology we only dreamed about 10 years ago; there is a completely different language being spoken, and I believe God is working on every level possible to get His children home, whether that be in Christian rock music, in the jungle-missions, or in friendship evangelism. Statistics that I learned in my youth-ministry class says that between 40-50 percent of our youth leave the church ("Why Teenagers Leave the Church" is a study done over the span of 10 years by Roger Dudley, specifically in Adventist youth). This has to do with multiple reasons, but one of the most glaring reason I saw (and could relate to) was the unwillingness of veteran church members to speak the language of a different generation. Judgments cloud open minds when we were merely called to love and let the Judge do the rest.

For that reason, I believe I AM that "someone else" raised to finish the work. I am not only one who has been called to it, but I fully plan on doing it, just like a good number of my friends. We have a heart for missions, youth and the broken and it is those very "abominations" that need to be reached in the first place. Very few will get what they need from a padded pew, and there are some that need to open up their plank-filled eyes and look around. "Normal" nowadays is having a broken family, addictions, dirty mouths and minds...

We ARE a spiritual campus because we offer the spiritual atmosphere more readily than others, with opportunities galore to serve and nurse the wounds of being human. Those that speak the language fear not at the idea of loving them, but friending them and gently turning their hearts toward God. "Care for the flock that God has entrusted to you. Watch over it willingly, not grudgingly--not for what you will get out of it, but because you are eager to serve God. Don't lord it over the people assigned to your care, but lead them by your own good example." - 1 Peter 5:2-3

I encourage you to look deeper than what you see on YouTube and be comforted that we are not crazy, lol, we're on fire for God, and we're trying to have a relationship with Him just like the rest of the church. We just want to have fun with God as well.

K....getting off the soap-box now, haha.

Tanya, I love what you and your friends did and are doing. Keep it up in spite of the critics who will never be pleased. I wish I was there!

Tanya,
Amazing work! It brought tears to my eyes to see the passion with which the student body has taken up the call to help the poor people of El Salvador. I was a part of the first student group that went down there, and let me just point all those Pharisees who have forgotten the true purpose of our calling to the need that those people are suffering. As an intern, I stayed down there for 3 additional weeks and was able to document the stories of some of those who are being helped by these funds, people who have nothing but the clothes on their backs and a shack in the jungle to live in. Those people's lives are being transformed by the outpouring of the love of Jesus through the aid of faithful teachers down there - made possible because of the money that SAU and other schools are raising.

I applaud President Bietz, Tanya, and the SA for the success of your fundraising. Let those other silly comments roll off your back, there will always be those who use the Word of God to condemn a good thing. God bless and much love to all at SAU!

My first thought is: Wow, I cannot believe this is coming from Southern which is reputed to be one of our more conservative schools.

How did this ever pass muster? Will there be a backlash, an outcry, a calling for the head of Gordon Bietz? I guess time will tell. Maybe one of the Watchmen On The Walls will start a website and call for his firing. Ha! Perhaps Jay Gallimore will have to boycott Southern as well now.

I don't know why anyone is surprised by the comments of Tammy. Seriously? People aren't expecting the standard, vicious reaction by the fundamentalists by now when something like this comes to light? Come on. Posting a video of kids bouncing up and down and dancing to the beat of Christian Rock and then complaining when the conservatives come out of the woodwork with guns blazing is a little naive. It's like complaining about the bull charging when the red cape is waved.

This rally video has provided the best fodder for Vance Ferrell and his ilk that they could ever ask for and Spectrum served it on a silver platter with a smile. Expect it to go viral on most, of not all conservative SDA forums and websites. Now all we are going to be hearing for the next few weeks from this sector of Adventism are howls of apostasy and cries of anger and despair as the old mothball-ridden quote from EGW concerning drums in Indiana is dragged out again and again and again and waved in our faces like some moldy corpse that is falling apart in order to instill fear in our hearts, a hammer to beat us into Hymnal submission. Thanks a lot SAU kids. It always makes for an irritating, thudding migraine of a time when the fundamentalists get riled up yet again.

It seems amusing to me that so many rush to the defense of this display and lavish glowing endorsement upon it when clearly the frown of our commander-in-chief Teddy would definitely darken the skies over the proceedings. How soon people forget his dire attack on CCM and worship that raises the blood pressure above sedate levels, his voice ringing through the Atlanta Dome in terrifying, foreboding warnings to those Adventists who would partake in such music styles. For shame SAU youth! What would the GYC organizers think about this? On the other hand, maybe the GYC kids were in the corner of the gymnasium somewhere on their knees shaking in appalled terror and pleading to the Father for forgiveness for such a vulgar demonstration of celebration and joy.

Me? I think it is great and Bietz was great as well for getting into the spirit of things. But what I think doesn't matter.

Nope, I'm just going to sit back and watch the predictable conservative reaction play out. Should be entertaining.

Tanya, don't let some ridiculous people on the Internet get under your skin. The Internet is just gorged with ridiculous people. The tubes are practically clogged. Everyone else thinks what you did is awesome. I give you an A+++ would buy again.

Why is it that when someone renounces behaviour the "liberals" cry "conservatism" to justify their behaviour.

I am not a conservative.

I am a born again Christian who knows he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

One thing is for sure.

This "activity" is not from God.

It is little different from what our pentecostal brothers would display, all we need is a few people rolling around on the floor "dribbling" and we have joined them it seems.

Many Christians confuse "emotionalism" with "spirituality".

Because we do not know how to teach our children how to be converted, we pander to their desire to express there carnal desires of "display" and "independence".

This is totally wordly, it is not of God and the leaders should bow their heads in shame.

A high "emotional" state, is not a "spiritual" state.

And those that are calling "evil" good, will have to answer to their crimes.

This is our youth we are allowing to be corrupted.

If the current leadership just want to supply the youths need to be "wordly", then this is no longer a Christian college.

We should teach our youth to be rebels against the "world", not rebels against Jesus Christ Himself.

The work of Satan if ever I saw it.

Mark

"Sometimes I just wish we could just have a divorce and go on our way. The misery guts in their historic corner doing their own thing and those who dance to a different tune not having to walk on eggshells all the time because something might blow up and we'll get someone into trouble."

Indeed, that is Satan's desire...

It is called the "shaking".

A picture is worth a thousand words. I think the picture of a "riot "at Southern has had more than its share. Some liked it, others didn't--no minds or attitudes have been changed. I was glad to be reassurred they actually had blood in their veins. Now the University should give us a chart of graduates--majors, career chices, first placements, etc. Where are they five years out, ten years.

Kids in Augusta can flop around like chickens within a mile or two of home, So why send them to Collegedale? Seems the only reason we saw was a President who know how to be a real guy. That is a big plus for me.

Now let us have the bottom-line--we now know it is more than Dr. Jud Lake--thanks be to God.

Tom Z.

You said it so well, Sirje! Amen!!

I don't get it?? What was wrong? I'm very far from the kind of "spirituality" where people roll on the floor. I am more the cold anglo-saxon type. But this University seems to be great. I love what I see. Happy young people. I'll try to send my 4 kids there.
"emotionalism masquerading as christianity" that is pretty much what the pharisees said when they talked about Jesus and his crowd..

You guys are so funny. In every tiny detail we love to see this apocalyptic battled between "wacko liberals" and "fundamentalists". Talk about off topic! Guys, catch your breath. It's ok. A few comments:

1. "It is little different from what our pentecostal brothers would display..."
I LOLed! Poe's Law is messing with me on this thread. Which of you are serious? Be honest now.

2. "Where are they [SAU grads] five years out, ten years."
We're doing great. The ones I've kept up with have been very successful.

3. "Now let us have the bottom-line--we now know it is more than Dr. Jud Lake--thanks be to God."
Is this necessary, Tom? I've had Dr. Lake as a teacher. I've shared a meal with Dr. Lake. He's a great guy. He is very passionate about his beliefs, and he serves a very important role in our faith community. And, honestly, how the heck is Dr. Lake in any way relevant to what is being discussed?

"Allah did not create man so that he could have fun. . . . There are no jokes in Islam. There is no humor in Islam. There is no fun in Islam." --Grand Ayatolla Khomeini

I don't see how the attitude portrayed in this quote is any different from the sour grapes, rain-on-the parade, stuffy, stern, uptight one we are seeing from the fundamentalist critics of the Adventist Taliban bemoaning the Southern kids in this discussion.

The fundamentalists make me laugh. They have somehow elevated the quiet, solemn, Methodist / Roman Catholic approach to reverence as the standard above all else. The fact of the matter is that if these rigid conservative Adventists were to find themselves in the middle of an ancient Jewish worship service as described in Scripture they would, at best, drop dead from a heart attack. It was LOUD, BOISTEROUS, CELEBRATORY filled with DANCING, CLASHING CYMBALS, STRINGED INSTRUMENTS, TAMBOURINES, HAND DRUMS, RHYTHMIC INSTRUMENTS and SHOUTING VOICES. David describes a scenario not even close to a sedate, dead, conservative SDA service.

Leave the kids alone, let them have fun and go wave the bony finger of accusation somewhere else.

"You guys are so funny. In every tiny detail we love to see this apocalyptic battle between "wacko liberals" and "fundamentalists". Talk about off topic! Guys, catch your breath. It's ok."

Surely you jest. Has not history taught us anything? I have borne witness to the conflict this issue can cause again and again and have seen it split churches, divide conferences and turn local congregations into battlegrounds, driving people out of fellowship. So you will pardon me if I do not rest in the assurance that it is all 'okay'. Make no mistake, the music / worship style issue is most definitely a battle and one that has raged bitterly for years in Adventism with no end in sight. It is serious enough for Wilson to specifically address in his Atlanta tirade, so need I say more?

Over the years I have at times quipped that Collegedale is the half the size of cemetery and twice as dead. I'm glad to see some evidence of me being wrong. Unfortunately, the white-bearded codgers of Collegedale tend to go apocalyptic over anything that doesn't sound like 19th century piety. In the mid 90s I remember one of the Collegedale stalwarts on Bowen Ridge moving his membership to Ringold because Pastor Bietz (before he became college president) had sanctioned DRAMA as part of the 11 o'clock service. This retired gentleman was a man I knew well via family in Collegedale, a man who, in the privacy of his home, passed around rancid racist material of the old, unregenerate kind aimed at making Jesse Jackson appear a member of the higher species of African wildlife. But he was offended at the sight of Christian drama. Couldn't abide such an abomination.

I'm not suggesting that those who oppose the cultural expressions of the 21st century are racists, but I'm more than suggesting that it has less to do with religion than culture. They're comfortable with the spiritual expressions they grew up with, and having spent a life-time looking for signs of the Apocalypse, they've always been quick to seize on whatever young people do that they don't like, and view it as a sign of the end. If so it should cheer them up but it never does.

Get out before you're crucified, young people. Find spiritual communities that aren't toxic, where you don't have to wonder when you'll get knifed next, where you'll be loved and affirmed, not constantly tiptoeing through a minefield. You deserve better than living in a very dysfunctional "family" for the rest of your life.

You're in the twlight zone. A symptom of the toxicity of a sick religious family that is critical, condemning, are far from nurturing at its core. Sure there are times of love and everything else wonderful. But the true test is when the chips are down, how does everyone reacts. For such a small thing in the scheme of things to turn into a massive beat up and war is not healthy. If I lived in a family like this I would get out as soon as possible and take my life to places that are healthy, whole, nurturing and supportive.

It seems as if the "marching" and "roller skating" of the 50's and 60's at the old SMC gym has picked up in pace in the new!

Boy there is trouble right here in river city. Next stage in the "stimulant to drug stage" is they will marry and sleep together. :)

Something like this bring out strange animals from the woodwork.

Great work Tanya, really enjoyed that clip - lots of joy BUT if you want your kids to really know how to get their groove on, send them down-under, to Avondale.

the SAD's on this thread really gave me a chuckle.

I am sure angels turned away as you typed that.

The angels turning away comment was to Elaine Nelson.

Twilight - Thu, 02/17/2011 - 15:51
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

________________________

What planet are you on Twilight? What was on the You Tube video had nothing, NOTHING in relation to any of these texts. I suggest you need your "vision" checked. Your mind must be in the gutter to see these things when they aren't there.

Lol, well according to Wikipedia, it's this:

A flash mob (or flashmob)[1] is a term coined in 2003 to denote a group of people who assemble suddenly in a public place, perform an unusual and sometimes seemingly pointless act for a brief time, then disperse, often for the purposes of entertainment and/or satire.

I'm not gonna lie people; I have a hard time hearing anything you have to say about God when you accuse me of being a Satan-worshipper (lol, seriously?) and nothing more than a pagan, disillusioned youth who has no clue what right and wrong is.

WOOOW. Just. WOW. My angel is with me EVERY step of my life, as is God. And whether people like it or not, I love my God and will represent Him to the world. And even though I know that must burn people up at that thought of me representing my church, it's going to happen and no one, especially someone from my own church, will shame me into keeping silent.

If it's facts you want, here's one: I showed this thread to a couple girls in my small group (why yes, we have a Bible-study group, imagine that). They pointed out that the presentation of the negative comments would make people repulsed by the church more than the flash mob ever would. As young people, we can speak for ourselves and say "No wonder so many youth are leaving." My Chaplain corrected that percentage by the way, it's 60% of youth that are leaving. Come now, "worldly clothes"? We were wearing Southern T-shirts and hoodies.

If I had skin paper-thin, I can honestly relate to my friends who read these comments and don't want anything to do with contributing our talents to our church. If I based my faith on the example of the church in situations like these, I would stay as far away from this brood of vipers as I could. But it is because I believe the doctrines and what it says about the Bible, about prophecy, about nearly everything, that I am an Adventist.

I know you believe what you do, and I respect your right to say it. I genuinely understand that you are concerned for what the Judge will say. However I get the impression that you enjoy debate and I will simply leave it at this: It is obvious that neither side will budge and ridiculous javelins thrown to either side is pointless and quite frankly very "of satan" in and of themselves. I believe satan is delighting in this argument more than anything else, so this will be my last post.

I'mma go do my thing now, haha. By all means, you can stay here and do yours; I've wasted enough time in this silly argument. A tip for the future: getting someone to see your point of view does not come by force and it can have the complete opposite effect depending on how it is presented, quite like this situation.

I am encouraged by those who say that they now consider Southern as an option for their children's educations :) Go SAU!! @Niel, lol, TOTALLY wanna visit Australia; it's on my bucket-list.

To the supporters of movers 'n shakers, I DO plan on keeping it up ;-) God bless.

-T

"I organized this flash-mob, and I can tell you that my intentions were not to offend, but to uplift the student body and faculty (if you look closely, our very own Chaplain and Dean took part, among other faculty)." Tanya

But it has offended a number and I'm certain many who are offended will not take time to express it here. Just because some apparently misguided staff took part does not in any way justify this outrage. Why should anyone send a young impressionable SDA to Southern?

Newbie! I do not think anyone, either the redeemed or the lost , will be behaving in such a manner when Jesus returns, I think that is what you mean isn't it? If new souls were the cause of celebration, the celebration would be of an entirely different order?

Robert

Oh, and by the way, Bevin, the kind of dancing these videos of SAU document is very different from the kind of social dancing against which Ellen White and our church standards warn.

A certain kind of dancing is natural to even the youngest of children -- without any kind of coaching whatsoever. Our little three-year-old grandson has never been exposed to seeing any social dancing (No TV, etc), yet he regularly `dances`during singing of the typical Cradle Roll songs as well as certain hymns and contemporary worship songs during family worship. It is a demonstration of pure joy -- the kind of demonstration for which the writer of Psalm 150 calls in `Praise Him with the timbrel and dance!`And it seems to me that the flash mob at SAU partook of that spirit.

By the negative comments on this blog, it`s clear we still have the Pharisees in our midst. But there`s hope even for them. They may be converted when they get just one real glimpse of the beauty of our matchless Savior! Then they, too, will not be able to keep themselves from dancing!

And so it has begun in earnest, just like I said it would. And there is more coming, believe that. Much more.

My only hope is that Tanya will not be carelessly thrown to the fundamentalist dogs or worse, leave the church in discouragement.

Inge, you are trying to reason with the unreasonable. They will not listen, they will not be negotiated with, they will not admit a shred of validity to anything you say, they will not concede a thing and they will not give an inch. I have dealt with the ultra-conservative segment long enough enough to know.

Tanya and the young people get a pass because they do not fully understand what they are dealing with nor are they familiar how judgmentally cruel, spiteful and mean this segment of the church can be. But Beitz and the other adults overseeing the convocation knew very well what would result from this. As such, they are now responsible for taking the hits that are sure to come from the right-wing and protect the youth from the church bullies as much as possible. Because believe me when I say, calling the kids unconverted and Satanic is only the beginning of the lows they will go to in their attacks. The conflict we are seeing here over this issue is only a microcosm of what takes place in churches and Camp Meetings all the time.

Nope, no battle here at all. We're all just over-reacting. Let's just all get along, hold hands and sing Kumbayah around the campfire.

Yeah, right.

As one of the fundamentalist dogs, I have no problem with the SAU flash mob. It is a great thing that college kids can have fun and celebrate a charitable accomplishment. (Remember that the reason for this outburst of joy was because the kids raised $5,000 to fight illiteracy in El Salvador.) Kudos to Gordon Bietz for knowing how to make college fun, and for being a good sport and joining in the fun.

Where is it written that there is no fun in Christianity? Why shouldn't an Adventist college have great school spirit, and an energetic and happy student body?

It saddens me that the spirit of Ayatollah Khomeini lives in some quarters of the church.

In response to: Post by Aage Rendalen on Thu, 02/17/2011 - 13:12

Absolutely true, absolutely brilliant.

City Lights, you've been saying the sky is falling for awhile now. Here's my prediction with respect to this particular event: a tiny number of people will be angry on the internet (what else is new?); an even smaller number of people will make a fuss to various administrators and church leaders, but we mortals will never hear about whatever "flak" they'll take; nothing else will happen.

Tanya, if you're still reading this thread, it's a big mistake to think the nay-sayers speak for "The Church", or the community of people on this website, or even "conservatives". They speak only for themselves.

"It's a big mistake to think the nay-sayers speak for "The Church", or the community of people on this website, or even "conservatives."

Oh, come on! Now you're reaching. I think they speak for far more of the conservative contingent than you want to admit. The exceptions are VERY few and far between...

Mention Christian Rock, dancing or celebratory gatherings to any conservative worth their salt. If you get a positive reaction from even one 1 in 20 I will eat my keyboard.

Jared, Tanya et al,
Thanks for sharing this video, it brought a much needed smile to me :)

I know only too well that the openness and freedom, although limited, on Adventist campuses is much greater than will be found in most Adventist churches. It was liberating to be free from the oppressive nature of my church when I attended College/University. I treasure those times. Moving from their back to the regular Adventist churches was tough. There were always a group of people ready to criticise anything said or done that didn't meet their strict, dogmatic criteria. They, and they alone, knew the mind of God and woe to anyone who disagreed, because they were of the devil and signs of the Adventist apostasy and Laodicean condition, a sure sign of the last days. It was toxic and poisonous to live in that atmosphere which was hellish. It is very dangerous to be Adventist without being Christian and I find a significant percentage of the Adventist church in my part of the nation to be like that. it is destructive and definitely emotional and spiritual abuse.

I now refuse to stay in and around people and situations that are so abusive. Sure these people can be nice and loving, and I've met murders on prison visits who can be like that too. But the true colours are shown in times of disagreement and conflict. Too me, Adventism in general has been found wanting and I want no part in a sick subculture that controls people and destroys their spirits. I was sick and tired of always having to worry about whether someone was going to get upset and have a hissy fit. I know that no group is perfect, but I refuse to be part of a group that seems to have toxicity and poison embedded in its dna - as I have found in Adventism.

Many of the beautiful Southern students are on fire and dong great things - but watch them being criticised and crucified and stifled as the years go on and it will wear them down and they'll say "I'm out of here" - then the nasty people who drove them to it will point at them as never having been any good and being backsliders, and wondering what is going wrong with our youth. And I say good riddance - as in it is the best thing these young people could do in protecting themselves and going to where they will belong and be loved and accepted and no longer have to walk on eggshells.

I'm sad its come to this. Most of the criticisms on this blog are ridiculous, illogical, meanspirited and I see them as Satanic. Southern students: I am deeply sorry that there are unredeemed agents of Satan in the church who are pharasaical, dead spirited, mean, critical and braindead. Please know that many of us here love and support you, appreciate the wonderful things you do to bring redemption and joy to the world, and delight in your delight, joy and playfulness in a world that so much needs what you bring. Be blessed. I pray for those who curse you.

See: http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/v14n02/04.print.html

I can't tell whether Twilight (who I'd assume loves the film of their namesake ) and Simone (who I also assume loves the movie associated with theirs) are being satirical with their comments. So I'm just going to assume that they are. SAU FTMFW! :)

Wow, Alysha nailed. Just nailed it. Bravo. Especially this part:

"Many of the beautiful Southern students are on fire and dong great things - but watch them being criticized and crucified and stifled as the years go on and it will wear them down and they'll say "I'm out of here" - then the nasty people who drove them to it will point at them as never having been any good and being backsliders, and wondering what is going wrong with our youth."

Yup, that's pretty much how they operate alright. It's despicable and it messes up people big time. And it's not just youth they do it to either.

Luke 15.23-25: "Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." So they began to celebrate. Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing.

So the Adventist version goes:
“When he came near the house, he heard music and springing about wildly or for joy; jumping, leaping, skipping, whirling, moving up and down or about in a quick or lively manner."

Ah. Clearly they weren't dancing.

How fun! Thanks, Dr. Bietz, and SAU students!

Perhaps some of these "bodies" don't even move during sex!

City Lights

It is when there is no dancing and no noise that one should get nervous. Peronally, I think the reaction was over kill over $5,000. raised. That is about 2.50 per student. The funds raised were just a convenient pretext for some fun. If they can get that happy and show that much energy on processed wheat potein and little Debbies give them an A plus.

As a parent, I say, keep them on their feet: Dr. Beitz! Tom Z

Simone, you are already divorced, and have already gone your own way. You just don't know it yet, evidently.

"Dance of Death," by Wellesley Muir, is excellent. I think he has shown us the way through the Biblical side of the dance question that should be instructive to the wayward young worldlings in this video and all of you who have spoken in their favor. He writes, "One thing is sure. God did not ask the Israelites to stop dancing at Sinai and then inspire David to write that we should worship Him with dance." He then goes on to explain that the Hebrew word for "dance" as used in the Psalms therefore has to mean something else.

God does not contradict Himself. If we know something to be truth, then anything that the Bible says that may contradict that can be explained in terms of mistranslation, transmission error, or some other kind of mistake in what is a millennia-old text that has passed through many hands. Where there appear to be contradictions, Seventh-day Adventists have the means to check this that other Christians don't have: we can turn to the writings of Ellen White, as Elder Muir has, and from what she says we can confirm which passages are accurate, and which are mistranslated or otherwise in error.

We can thank God for the Spirit of Prophecy. As a contemporary source of Divine inspiration, straight from Ellen White's pen and with no translation difficulties, it is a sure and certain guide through Biblical uncertainties.

I have noticed many of you saying "those unconverted students" etc. As an SAU student I would like to say that God is #1 in my life-- and I wish I had been a part of that flashmob. David danced. "There is a time for dancing..." It is an expression of joy. WHO we dance for is what you should be concerned about, not whether or not we are at all. We are dancing for GOD. We love Him just as much as you do. No one has the authority to judge anyone in that flashmob: GOD is the final judge and the God I know would be thrilled to see so many young people dancing for joy in HIM. You have gone so far as to call it a "DEMONstration" and "of Satan." When and why are Adventist "not allowed" to dance, move, do ANYTHING that expresses joy besides sing hymns and songs that are just as calm? Why are we hindered to express our love for God and what He's done for us? What makes that Satanic? Yes, dancing exists that is far from pure and wholesome, but this was absolutely nothing like that. As a fellow student said above, I am not discouraged by this--Just disappointed that my church believes so many young God-followers are being filled with Satan because of an expression of joy and gladness that we can help a good cause in Christ's name. I am filled with Christ's love and I WILL dance for joy now in the happiness He has given me and when He returns in all His glory.

For all those who think GYC will have something against the students of SAU, check out this video of the dance at GYC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGpuGaQ660U

:-)

So, is Your Friend no longer friends with David Read? The circle of friends continues to shrink...

"I support the actions of the happy students at Southern Adventist University."

This is not a time in the history of this earth to be happy. We are living in the anti-typical day of atonement. We are to be mourning. Remove our jewelry, wear sackcloth and ashes. No celebrating, just repentance and remorse. Solemnity, not joy, is the order of the day.

"Put on sackcloth, you priests, and mourn;
wail, you who minister before the altar.
Come, spend the night in sackcloth,
you who minister before my God;
for the grain offerings and drink offerings

Let the priests, who minister before the LORD,
weep between the portico and the altar.
Let them say, “Spare your people, LORD.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?’”

Joel 1:13, 2:17

Absolutely, I.M. Faithful! I am having some difficulty with the sack cloth though. Most feed sacks are now paper or woven plastic. I burn wood so have no problem with the ashes but the trouble with the sack cloth is daunting. And then there is winter here in Northern Minnesota. I relish hardship but try to shun foolishness. I have tried not to look at the full moon tonight in fear of becoming joyful. Happy to say that I am mourning quite well.

Twilight,

I'm not trying to judge you, because I slip and fall daily, but I remember the example of Jesus and am brought to the foot of the cross. When I look in the face of Jesus, I see how frivolous this argument is. Won't you behold Jesus with me?

WOW, seriously? I cannot believe some of the comments here in this forum!

I'm a student at SAU.

I love God
I love Jesus,
I believe EGW was a messenger and I do follow her writings
Also, I'm a part of many ministries in which some are actually recognized at GYC events.

I used to go to the popular, widely talked (cause of their biology classes), SDA institution out in the west coast,
but now I go here, and it's the BEST decision I've ever made!

Just cause we had our happy moment (as shown in this video) doesn't make us liberals
and it doesn't make us Satan-worshippers or non-believers of the Trinity and EGW

in fact, this WONDERFUL school has helped mine and many others (from friends to those with amazing testimonies) relationship with Christ

each faculty, staff, and student has helped me here someway spiritually
my two years here at Southern are better than what I've learned anywhere else
and I would say my education and experience here was worth the money

there's a reason why this school is the biggest undergraduate enrollment school in the NAD..
hmm... i wonder why =)

I will be graduating here this year from SAU
& I'll be proud to say,
I GRADUATED FROM SOUTHERN ADVENTIST UNIVERSITY! =)

I'm a student at a non-church university. I'm inspired by Jesus, as are many of my friends. We are involved in significant humanitarian and ecological projects. And we dance! No one hear would have second thoughts about this video. We'd enjoy it, appreciate it and go on with life.

I'm amused and shocked that people would get so stirred up about something like this and put so much emotional energy into it when there are much more important things to invest time, energy and emotions in.

A Seventh Day Adventist friend recommended I read this and other sites. It's interesting to read from a sociological perspective. But if the attacking elements are the truest expression of your religion then I have no desire to have any other association with it other than the couple of SDA friends at uni, who seem decent and open minded enough. I think some people are seriously disturbed individuals by their comments. Yet it seems like many come out with their daggers to attack - perhaps some care, compassion and helping them to seek help would be more appropriate.

"We should be careful NOT to take into our hands the work of judging that belongs to God..." Brother Jack.
This is not, as some would lead us to believe, that we are not to determine whether certain overt actions may be contrary to the spirit and teachings of Scripture. In one sense we are making judgments frequently , not in the Biblical sense, whether we should accept this doctrine, whether this person would make a good Sabbath School teacher, or whether that person is a suitable local elder, etc. The list goes on almost ad infinitum.
Lets' be careful how we "judge" judging.

"This is not a time in the history of this earth to be happy. We are living in the anti-typical day of atonement. We are to be mourning. Remove our jewelry, wear sackcloth and ashes. No celebrating, just repentance and remorse. Solemnity, not joy, is the order of the day."

I am a student at SAU and have commented before. Are we not supposed to be joyful about the things that God does for us? Are we ONLY supposed to mourn? There is a time for mourning, a time for dancing, there is a time for all things. We can't be glad and dance in the hope of Christ coming back soon? In the miracles He performs? When you see a gorgeous sunset, do you weep? When someone is cured of cancer only because of the hand of God, do you mourn? We have so much to rejoice about and yes, to mourn about. But there is a time for both. I will not walk around my campus with my head down and weeping. I choose to be full of joy for the Lord so that others may know His joy as well.

I.M.

If Ellen White's writings need no "translation", why is is that Pacific Press is putting out so many paraphrases of her work in updated English?

David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart. .....When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!" David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD... — I will celebrate before the LORD. I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor." II Samuel 6

Compare the Exodus 32 account of the golden calf, where the point is made repeatedly that the sin is idol worship. Moses comes down the mountain, and is enraged to see the golden calf and dancing. So the Israelites are dancing--before the idol--and not the Lord. Their dancing is exhibiting their worship, which should be offered only to Yahweh.

Christi.....oh my, this has really peaked my interest, about Ellen giving nodding approval to changes instigated by James!..Do you have any link handy?

Students: This could be alot of fun for your next Flash mob....dress up in sackcloth and ashes and choreograph a dirge...could be a hoot.

The flesh wants the world.

It is drawn to it.

Our youth keep crying out that they want to express their "flesh".

So we try to meet that want, we give them worldly music disguised as "Christian Music".

We turn a blind eye as they dress like the worldly children.

We pamper to their tantrums when they demand not to be challenged.

And we are accused of denying them "fun" when we are trying to teach them how to deny the "flesh".

These kids are so blinded by popular music and colture, that they cannot even discern what spirit they are of.

And the adults how do not know how to walk with God, treat them like Eli treated his sons.

When they defile the sanctuary and are called into judgement, where will the "stop telling them not to have fun" brigade be then?

Will you be happy to watch them burn, because you did not teach them holiness of character.

We are Gods children, it is time we started acting like it and time to stop snivelling when someone corrects us...

And for you liberals that reserve the right to castigate anyone who is not "liberal" in your mind:

Willow Creek did not work.

It created a church of unconverted masses that had no practical piety.

What next?

The emerging church movement?

Satan is offering that one on a plate.

I am sure many will want to dine and will still be attacking those that are trying to warn them of the dangers they are heading into.

God has raised up messengers in this church that will tell you of the dangers of worldly music disguised as Christian Music.

They have studied this out.

They have shown it is from Satan.

But if your heart is connected to the world, you will never hear it.

And when the shaking comes.

The leaves will just drift away.

Because there is no root in the soil of Christ.

It is all emotionalism and excitement that will not survive persecution or challenges.

Its coming folks, the times are the same as in Noah's time.

But many in the church keep ignoring the ark.

Time to get ready.

Twilight., by this, I get the feeling that you have not really read the Bible. Are you able to expound a little on the loveliness and winsomeness of Jesus at all? He is the lens through which we view the Father, the creator of the cosmos. All this wailing and throwing of ashes, as far as I can see, is to frighten people back into submission to a frightening God. There is very little power in that, if you truly care about those who are headed to perdition

Hmmm...Ah but Jesus celebrated at a boistrous Middle Eastern wedding & was crticisized for eating & drinking with sinners...I believe he was well balanced in his prayer time etc. I want nothing to do with these Pharisees that are bemoaning innocent joy.

Dancing leads to promiscuity. Period. There is no good dancing. Modern dancing leads to modern sex. Folk dancing leads to folk sex. Square dancing leads to square sex. This is a rule in the moral structure of the universe.

This was not a worship service, are we clear about this? It might be fair to liken this flash mob expression to some fringe pentecostalism if it had taken place in a church or in the middle of divine worship. But it did not. The cause is a worthy one, the leadership was sound. I'm inspired! And encouraged. Bravo, SAU!

I agree with Tom Zwemer: "I personally, view it as a mild tempest in a gym by a group of enthusiastic young people, looking for any excuse to express pent up energy. They found a “good cause” and a receptive administration."

One has to marvel at Satan's work capacity--not to speak of his priorities. Here he's busy stirring up mayhem around the world, civil war in Ivory Coast, massacres in Nigeria's north, narko-war in Mexico, violent repression of protest in the Arab world--real, meaty evil stuff--but in spite of that he takes time out of his schedule to entice a group of SAU students to jump and pivot to music (not to offend anybody's sensibilities, I'll refrain from calling it 'dancing.') during an assembly. Of course, maybe he's getting tired of all the bloodletting and bad press and just wants to hang back a little, but whatever reason, his intervention in Collegedale doesn't seem to be up to his usual standard. In fact, if we could divert his attention to doing more of the sort, maybe the world would become a better place.

Here is a short chronological history of my emotional reactions to this discussion as it has evolved over the last week or so:

enthusiastic glee
mild irritation
disappointment
hopeful pride
snorting laughter.

Which letter Christ would send off to Elder Wilson?

Dear Elder Wilson
I hear there have been some serious goings on down at Southern.
You must have heard by now about the shaky students - moving - and not to the music of heaven either.
Elder Bietz seems to have coloured his hair - I think there's an adornment issue here.
Hear that some of my Adventist friends are encouraging it.
Time to sort out the church I think.
We must meet up and discuss.
Your Friend - in the Blessed Hope.
Jesus

Dear Elder Wilson
I hear there have been some serious goings on down at Southern.
Trust you have heard by now the great news about students raising $5,000 to combat illiteracy in El Salavador.
Elder Bietz - a person of spirit - he would do good in the wider work.
Hear that some of my Adventist friends are a bit grumpy about it.
Trust one day they will understand and live - both the Kingdom of Grace, and the Kingdom of Glory.
We must meet up and discuss.
Your Friend - in the Blessed Hope
Jesus

" I was instructed that repetitious bouncing and swaying confuses the vital life fluids leaving the young completely outside of the protection of their guardian angels" TMR 45

Well, is it believable or at least what you want to believe?

How far this confrontation will go? As I see General Conference President in a recent press conference http://www.vimeo.com/20113993 (you may see his statement at the end of this video clip) was clear.. when he quoted ..."Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit." {Maranatha (Jesus is Coming Soon) page 234.1}. It for sure will sift Adventist church.

Just an interesting aside. A recent documentary on music stated that humans are the only creatures on Earth who can move in unison to music and that when we do this a sense of belonging and fellowship is created! Why has God created us with this innate ability if we arn't supposed to do it? I do believe there are good ways and not so good ways to dance, dancing for God is definately good. Loved it, Peace and God Bless.

Not so fast: birds and chimps and even dogs have been photographed swaying and moving to music. The birds regularly carry on a "courtship dance" (isn't that what dancing is for ;-)

Seriously, if God disapproved of dancing, he would not have endowed us with the innate ability to feel the rhythm in "our bones" when hearing music. Nor would there be so much dancing reported in the Bible. What if were made to be "sinful" to salivate when smelling delicious food? What's the difference?

The opposing quotations from EGW is another of many illustrations than folks use to attack those who disagree. There are always opposing quotations for nearly every subject--if one wants to spend time finding them--what a waste of good time!

"And here`s a note to those who like to apply Ellen White`s comments on the abominable goings-on at a certain Indiana camp meeting to any demonstration of joy or music with drums (God forbid!):

Please go back and read the context. The Indiana camp meeting display was one of confusion and fanaticism. It was doctrinal fanaticism. It was confused and disorganized. Even the music was poorly done. Ellen White later commented that the very same music, if properly done, could be an honor to God. And she realized this was `Salvation-army-style`music -- a style never without rhythm instruments. She attended musical programs that included drums and other rhythm instruments and apparently enjoyed them.

In my opinion, those mis-applying this quotation to modern praise music just add to the original abomination and confusion."

And of course, Inge is correct. The immediate context is the Holy Flesh movement which has more of a parallel to extreme Pentecostal and Charismatic demonstrations than a typical modern contemporary worship service. Having said that though, I have no illusions that EGW could attend one of our christian rock-oriented services in the more progressive Californian and Australian churches today and do anything other than blast and condemn it along with the other conservatives.

No need to try and twist our minds into a pretzel trying to reason otherwise or preform magnificent gymnastics to try and convince us to believe she was somehow so progressive she would have embraced it.. Her position is clear. She came from a quiet, sedate Methodist background and she would have hated it.

Just say she would have been wrong, we wouldn't share her taste and move on with life.

Also, please note that while Inge is correct that using this quote against contemporary worship today is a misapplication, have a gander at the press conference video link just provided here. Take a wild guess which quote Ted Wilson uses in answering one of the music questions? Apparently the world leader of the church is not even able to take an EGW statement in context and use it properly.

That is truly frightening.

"Seriously, if God disapproved of dancing, he would not have endowed us with the innate ability to feel the rhythm in 'our bones' when hearing music."

Just because we feel something in our bones doesn't mean it's good. I feel arthritis in my bones, and it isn't a feeling I want to indulge.

This wasn't an organized worship service! It was a bunch of students getting together to express their exuberance over a task well done, and a godly goal that was reached.

But, even if it was written off and condemned by some in the context of an intentional expression of worship, check out Miriam and the women dancing with tambourines after the Red Sea deliverance. I guess many in our midst would have stood by on the side and offered condemnation over their heart felt response to God. But, the Bible records their use of...oh dread....percussion and drums. Essentially, that is what tambourines are!

Adventism and much conservative Christianity grew up out of northern European and Puritan piety...quite different than Middle Eastern cultural expression, and the cultural expression of many other racial and ethnic groups. To think that differences of opinion, taste, and even levels of offense are totally based on biblical reasons, and have nothing to do with cultural factors, is naive.

Romans 14:1-15:7 has never seemed to sit well with many in the Adventist church, where no room for difference on any issue is seemed to be allowed by those who take a hardline on everything from music to adornment to diet. Yet, it seems like the medicine we need if we, as individuals and as an organization, are ever to grow up into real Christian maturity and unity.

Thanks...

Frank

Thank you for showing this clip of what is going on at Southern. My husband attended, our daughter wanted to attend; now all of our eyes are opened and SHE WILL NOT BE ATTENDING - this is also her decision. Why pay such HIGHLY, EXUBERANT costs in sending our daughter to a den of lions - to the slaughter and loose out on her salvation. YES, we believe this is CORRUPTION, UNCHRIST-LIKE behavior, NEVER to be brought in to a Christian school. Baptist schools do not even allow such as this to happen. SHAME ON YOU!!! You may say, " You don't want conservative students at Southern anyway", well, you will probably get your wish.
ARISE, AFCOE, LIFE, OHC - is where the Lord is blessing. I really feel sorry for Southern and Mr. Beitz.
As we read the Bible and SOP and then watching this video, it is evident the Lord is coming very soon - how are you planning to be prepared?

It's not too late to ask the Lord to forgive you, and also you Mr. Beitz.
THERE IS HOPE IN CHRIST.

And then there's the claim that what God disapproved of was the dancing, & not the worship of the golden calf.

*****************

And this is where it gets so far off track in trying to make a case against dance or any kind of movement to music. The phrase, "...They rose up to play...." is a euphemism that can imply an engaging in sexual play connected to worship. Same kind of thing went on the pagan temples of the ancient world. The singing and dancing going on around the calf would be connected to this overall picture. Interesting how nobody looks to totally outlaw singing today, since that was going on during this incident as well.

How in the world can what went on at SAU be remotely related to this?...Unless of course, one begins to eisegete and twist the biblical text.

Thanks...

Frank

I am appalled at the disgraceful lack of logic and wisdom, the vicious vitriol, the killjoy spirit and the extreme overreaction that I see in some of the posts here. Compounded by sanctimonious egotism. Ellen White said there would be 100 conversions where there are now 1 if we were loving and loveable Christians. These despicable traits draw noone to Christ or this church. Wake up!

I'm a 4th generation Adventist, a pastor's kid, a product of Southern, AND a Bible teacher in our school system...and I have to say that I'm saddened by this...and when I say this, I'm not talking about the video, the flash mob, or anything that Souther did. No...I'm saddened by the rhetoric following this video. Several different people have commented on the devil's work and Satan being happy at what is happening and I'm afraid that these people may be right...to a point. I believe that Satan is very satisfied at the war that this video has become, the division that some people seem determined to continue.

As a 20-something who works with teenagers, I can tell you from personal experience that the youth and young adults are leaving in droves because either they're not accepted in the church or because they're sick of the hypocrites (and that can be applied to liberals AND conservatives). So many are focused on critiquing out the "bad" that they've forgotten to love and accept first. Christ is to be our ultimate example and He met people where they were - Pharisees, tax collectors, prostitutes - everyone was loved, accepted, and taught in a way that spoke to them.

We've spent so much time on soap boxes condemning movies, television, music, etc. that we've lost sight of the fact that what we say and do is more likely to drive the youth and young adults away from the church rather than toward it.

John Dybdahl in his book "Hunger" speaks to the importance of PERSONAL spirituality, the involvement of emotions, and a PERSONAL relationship with Christ. When we guide the youth and young adults to a personal relationship with their Lord and Savior, everything that they need will fall into place. It is NOT up to us to determine what is right and wrong - that's God's job - and when we do we're doing more harm than good.

Jesus was radically, scandalously inclusive and He is our example.

it seems like the bulk of the people who are reacting to this see this as a form of Pentecostal worship. If anything this is much more a performance than it is being caught up in the spirit. This was planned. In other words it was a performance. Are you not familiar with what a flash mob is?

Check out this performance at the Antwerp Train Station. It's Sound of Music. You cannot hate it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYAUazLI9k

A flash mob is a form of theater. Guerrilla theater. I for one am glad to see guerrilla theater on the scene at SAU.

Timothy, you may be onto something. Maybe many don't know what a flash mob is or does.

I'm an alumni of Southern. I love it, and the people. Jesus revealed through His prophet {in Last Day Events p. 180} that when the mark of the beast is enforced by law, “the majority” will “forsake us.” Most everyone you’ve ever seen in church on Sabbath will soon be Sunday-keepers. Because of the mental pressure, most everyone you’ve ever known will, like happy Peter, cave in to that pressure. They will receive the mark of the beast of Rev. 13, then, the seven last plagues of Rev. 16. How many will “the majority” be? What will it be like? If you read the comments of the students and people on this web-site, it will give you a hint.

Okay. Here's another example of a flash mob that might bring both sides together. One can only hope...

But first, let me say that I see nothing wrong with the exuberant display of the SAU students. Would that we would all loosen up and enjoy life a little more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

Thomson
Exactly!!!!! :>)
Who do you think might be smiling, Jesus or Satan??
I would hope people would "lighten up" and realize that being sooooo "judgemental" saddens the one to whom "all judgement" has been given!!!
Fred

Thank you Thomson for the video.

Christianity is not about not offending anyone. But it is not a licence to irrationally offend or to be ridiculous in its offence.

I love the manifestation of your sinlessness. Please teach me how to be perfect like you.

Tanya,
You must have skipped this part:

Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector Remember that one? In case you somehow missed it, here's the rest of it: The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: GOD I THANK YOU THAT I AM NOT LIKE OTHER PEOPLE: SWINDLERS, UNJUST, ADULTERERS, TAX COLLECTORS OR EVEN LIKE THOSE AWFUL KIDS AT SOUTHERN. I EAT ONLY TWO MEALS A DAY, WATCH 3ABM REGULARLY, NOT TO MENTION DOUG BATCHELOR, AND NEVER GET MAD AT THE IDIOT DRIVERS AROUND ME.

But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, GOD, BE MERCIFUL TO ME, THE SINNER!

I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Thomson,
Another smile that I needed :)

Gee Whiz! Sounds like Ms SADucee is on the lose. Won't be hanging in your part of heaven, ma'am!!

"I was instructed that in the days just before the Lord's return the young who were once part of the flock would, under complete control of the enemy, turn themselves over to complete licentiousness. In mass they jump and sway to demonic rhythms while the leaders who are chosen to guide them in truth, falsely adorned, only accelerate the demise of their soles. Oh, for the need of just one true follower of the Redeemer who would stop the music and thus save the sheep who are being lead to the slaughter." TMR 53

Amittai

One sure test of validity is for BobRyan to reject it. So sorry, he liked your research/blog/commentary.

What happens in the Gym before all eyes is more than likely benign. It what happens in the dorms, in the back seats of cars, on crib sheets during exams that grieve the Holy Spirit. The dyeing of hair breaks no Mosaic law, rule, or standard. (I imagine that his wife said: "Will you ever grow up?"

I recall one Sunday morning at Old EMC. I was to open the College Store, sweep-up, clean the grill, and generally get ready for early morning traffic for those who "missed" breakfast. I was supposted to be helped by a young women about 4 years older than I. She arrived about 90 minutes late in a great hurry all out of breath. She said. "Sorry Tom but I spent the entire night in a car with Ray, Do you think I did wrong?" I said. "Most likely!" Now I'm almost 86 and she must be close to ninety. Ray probably can't even drive let alone climb into a back seat. Both most likely watch the evening news and say--"what ever are these young people coming to?" Tom Z

Tom, you have hit the bull's eye again.

Dick, I may as well seal my doom here....

Ellen White was, in many ways, a Victorian fuss budget. We've imported a lot of memes from the nineteenth century that have not served us.

I'm not trying to despise prophesying, I'm just trying to try all things and hold fast to what is good.

Ellen White on Attunement Play:

In Switzerland we see the teachers go out with their scholars every day, and they sing their little songs and learn how to play. This is as it should be, then school is not a drudgery. All the older ones have a teacher with them, and he watches their play and tells them how to play and plays with them, and they become attached to him.
--4MR 96.2

He does not stand off and criticize and find fault with their play, but enters right into their amusement and if he finds one who is mischievous he sets him in order and teaches him that he must play right. And thus the teachers mingle with the scholars in their amusement and their hearts are bound together.

--Ms 19, 1887, pp. 7, 8. ("A Practical Education," August 18, 1887)

Thanks, Frank. :)

Well, Dick, I've been trying to find your quote - thought I caught a whiff of a rat (TMR?) - but if you made that up, darn, you're good! lol

Play's good!!! I love it!!!

ROFL

AMEN!, AMEN, AMEN - well put! Thank you for posting this - very timely. There obviously is a lack of reading the Bible and from God's messinger, Mrs. White at Southern Adventist University.

It's sad to see the Lord's name taken in vain as a response to your posting, the devil's way of putting down those who want to stand for truth and help others to see it. Wake up students, watch the news, see what is tragically happening all around us in this world - wars, earthquakes, the extreme weather - this is only the beginning. This is no time to try and make excuses for your behavior, do you remotely want to defend what you are doing and find out later that you were wrong after all? If you are going to err, would you rather err for the right or the wrong? This is not the time to wait and see. Take a hard look at yourself, are you truly happy with what you see? Do you truly feel that you are doing what God would have you do and be? What are you doing for others in bringing them to the heart of God?
"BE STILL and know that I am God" Psalm 46:10.
Now is the time to study like you have never studied the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy before. Please reread what Pastor Jan Marcussen wrote, he is a very knowledgeable man and knows what he is saying and quoting the Bible. The following young person commenting that they felt they could disagree. I would highly urge you to reconsider.

The persons who sacrificed their money, lives, and everything to start Southern Missionary College so many years ago, longed for this school to be above the other colleges in guiding the youth to Christ. Their emphases was "MISSIONARY." How that has fallen so far from the emphasis today. Our pioneers would roll over in their graves if they saw what is happening at the school now.
Very sad!

To hear others say they would rather send their children to the Baptist Schools is something I have been taught never to go outside our denomination, but I am having to reconsider. To see you students mock and cuss the writers who quoted from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy. Be careful, remember what happened to the children that mocked Elisha?

What is needed on this campus is a TRUE REVIVAL. Don't let it be too late.

PS - I clicked on "reply" on Amittai's page. My comment is a follow up of that.

Well done Amittai.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I love my church, but some of the people--need help! Don't be surprised to find that your child knows how to leap for joy!

Suzanna, Suzanna, Suzanna, if Y O U only knew these young people! They need much prayer! The world has influenced these young people in every way if you knew you would be utterly shocked. Take it from a current student. There are some faithful students here, but we are like the 300 that were left to do battle with Gideon. You do not know and I will not give the details but much of what goes on in student lives on secular campuses goes on here too, and you can let your imagination go and you'll probably be right. Again, Tammy hit it right on the mark, it needs to be said. My fellow young people are here for a few reasons. SOme because their parents made them come but they really don't want to be here. Some because the education here is very good! Some because all their friends came here. Some that chose because it is Southern and last faithful SDA school left. THings have been changing, let me tell you.

I wonder what Elder Ted WIlson will say when he finds out about the 25ft stone carved statue in the back of the campus? That is when he visit in March or April?

I will now get upset people replying to this...

I'm sorry, I thought that the bible says no graven (carved in stone) images in any likeness of anything, in heaven above or in the earth beneath. Have we become the people of the times? We used to be the people of the book. I know, I know, you say we are not worshipping it and it is just an artists rendering of Elijah passing the torch to Elisha.

Catholics use that card too when they read in scripture about graven images. THey say oh its just art and Mary, we don't worship her we just honor her. We should't open our mouths to the precious Catholic souls about the second commandment when SAU has images on their campus. The image looks more like a greek god than it does Elijah, oh by the way, what does Elijah even look like? Hmmm.

This flash mob stuff... I just have to ask the question, what was the dragon for on the stage? Great to see everyone having fun, and even more glad this was not in the church. Too bad this is what the convocation time has become. They used to bring in good Adventist speakers, but that has not been the case in a while.

These are the last days and this forced, once a week worship, (students call it the Thursday law), should be messages to edify and convict and strengthen these students to think about heavenly things and Jesus CHrist. THe theme of heaven is going to be JEsus. Convocation means an holy gathering, a solemn assembly. However, we play music like this then dance it up. Nothing wrong in having fun but this is supposed to be convocation.

Yes I know David danced too... I also know David did a lot of things... Doesn't make it ok...

Maranatha,

David was disciplined for dancing before the Lord? What Bible are you reading?

It was the Bathsheba fling that got him in trouble.

I didn't see any Bathsheba hanky panky here. It was the joy before the Lord.

How did you get stuck on statues being "graven images"? Haven't you missed the point again? Wasn't it WORSHIPPING these images, pleading with them to hear, appeasing them with human sacrifices, performing lewd sex acts in their temples, asking and requesting blessings of them that made them idolotrous? Are you talking about the Elijah statue of passing the mantle onto th enext generation?

The kind of imbalance I hear from you makes me want to run in the opposite direction. The kind of joy in this story makes me attracted to a God of joy, enthusiasm, grace, energy. Maybe God IS energy.

Sorry, Maranatha. "Our first work." That just sounds so legalistic. Have you done a recent study about grace?

Grace. It's what's missing in a lot of Adventists. Grace seems the closest thing to godliness there is on earth. Maranatha, "grace" is missing from your missive.

Friends
It truly is amazing to me to read the comments above. (in a very sad way!!)
The picture of God driven by fear is truly appalling and so unbiblical !!! Somehow many have missed the picture of God being a loving God shown to us by Jesus (God the Son) whose graciousness (a character trait) brings about our salvation (the word means healing!!!) Do you accept Satan's misrepresentation of God as arbitrary, severe, unforgiving, unmerciful basically a tyrant?? A God who has no joy (or humor)??
I would suggest you reread WHY He didn't allow Moses to enter Canaan!!
Moses had broken God's trust by MISREPRESENTING God to His people!!! He made the people think He was angry with them, when God would have given them all the water they wanted but his misrepresentation of God"s loving care for his children could not be overlooked!!!!!! Yet ultimately He was given the highest honor of supporting Christ (along with Elijah) when He needed that loving support of His closest friends just before His death!!!
To make such a "mountain out of a mole hill" is amazing in this instance!!!!
When I was in med school at LLU the Campus Community Fellowship sponsored a "march" actually a "square dance" at Gentry Gym on Saturday night. There was a big "upset " among the "purity patrol" at one of the local churches in LL such that they sent an "emissary" to the GC headquarters to report this event to the GC President Neal Wilson. Upon hearing their condeming report about the lack of "morals" at LLU and unGodly activities going on Neal responded "I didn't think it was bad at all !!" Unknown to the "PP" Neals daughter and son-in-law had helped organize the evening and Neal Wilson had actually been in attendance!!!
The picture painted of God as a "fearsome" God is in great contrast to the God of John 15 who wants to be "OUR FRIEND" and whose grace and love is what wins us to accept His healing (salvation)!!
The representation of God waiting to condemn and "zap us" if we dare get out of line is very misguided to say the least and not constructive in bringing about change even IF this event were "sinful".(which I don't believe to be the case at all!!!) Christ did not use this technique (with rare exception) so why should we?!?!
Please think about it and lighten up a bit.
All the best to all involved!!
Fred

I feel the same way as you Fred, and am just speechless at looking at this joyless fear. Here is an excellent blog speaking to why Moses was prevented from entering the promised land, as you mentioned.

http://freebelievers.com/blog-entry/beating-the-rock

The joykilling brigade has struck too many times here. What was a simple video of a few minutes of playfulness celebrating raising money for people in a poor country has been hijacked into the great adventist controversy. Talk about straining at gnats and swallowing camels. Unfortunately that is the level of Adventism i know so well from my years of being socially and spiritually formed in the church. Issues of significance to peace, mercy and justice in the world hardly rated a mention except in delight that they proved Jesus was about to return. These issues weren't seen as sin, nor the neglect of these issues by the SDA followers who claimed to be the most enlightened followers of Jesus. Instead ridiculously small and petty things of no great consequence were over dramatised and beat up as the worst sins in the world and universe. Seems like nothing has changed at the core of Adventism. A younger generation generally sees through this nonsense for what it really is and they will walk away in droves as this continues to be the case. And the joykillers will blame it on their lack of commitment to christ and to their worldliness - and in reality it is they who have driven away the precious ones of Jesus. Better you have a millstone around your neck than drive away these precious young ones of our Father.

Maranatha, I appreciate your posts. I wanted to contact you, but didn't know how...please email me at choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com or call me at 440-224-2227. Have a blessed Sabbath!

I didn't know before today that Ellen White had spoken of the evils of tennis and cricket, but it doesn't surprise me. Tennis is nothing but dancing with a racket and ball. Mixed doubles? A square dance. And what does dancing lead to? Promiscuity. There's a reason that when they shout out the scores in tennis, they say "fifteen-love". Though not everyone knows the background to, it comes from the practice in the early days of the sport in atheistic post-revolution France of having the loser who scores no points submit in a carnal way to the winner. These feelings are hyped up by exertion, competition, and the extremely immodest attire of the participants.

As to cricket, I surmise that her disapproval could be about the extremely long matches—up to five days—in cricket, which are not only injurious to the body, but keep the mind in an extended state of competitiveness which inflames the passions and sends excess hormones surging through the system. When cricketers make their pitch, they refer to it as bowling, which activity Ellen White makes quite clear is wrong.

So, people, don't dismiss her counsels unless you know the reasons why she gave them. This is a sober time in which to live, not a time to flirt with even the mildest of sins.

I.M.Faithful, we must not forget that she condemned bicycles. I'm shocked, shocked, that all of our colleges allow bicycles on their campuses!

CityLights: I just read an article last night, as to why it is in vain to have a logical discussion with fundamentalist and the core is, they hate logical reasoning and will avoid it at all cost. It has been my experience and the experience of anyone I've talked to, and just knowing it, helps to take off the edge but it doesn't take away the exasperation...One is left thinking, surely there has to be a few kernels of common ground.

Today I heard the CBC play Brahms's "Akademische Festouverture". Brahms wrote this for the University of Breslau as a Musical "Thank You" after having received an honorary doctorate from them the year before. The piece was performed for the university with the entire faculty and student body present. As it turned out, Brahms had incorporated within his piece, a potpourri of student ale drinking songs and outraged the staid and traditional faculty, but the students went into an uproar of approval, realizing that this renowned composer was identifying with them, the modern generation. -The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Sirje, I love it! Dr. Stuart Brown would call that "Attunement Play." Cool.

http://nifplay.org/states_play.html

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that you gave me "h-e-double-toothpicks" (Renie's term) back at atomorrow.com.

That would have been our dear J.R. "I dishes it out and I takes it" Layman, and friends, of course, may he rest in peace.

You are always my hail fellow well met. :)

I never "merited" it, but what don't kill you will make you strong, I guess. :) Didn't think you'd personalize, but just thought I'd check.

It's used in the BIble often enough.

Brother Frank, as I've said before I do not know everything, and I am a broken person. I do not have all the answers. I do need the indwelling of the Holy SPirit and I do need JEsus Christ to guide me daily.

If I recall correctly I never said anything about God not allowing David to build the sanctuary due to his dancing. Yes, I know that David had too much blood on his hands. I said David did a lot of other things I was alluding to this very thing. I'm truly sorry for not making that clear.

Yes I would agree with your proficiency in respects to the historical context. However, I would also agree with your rendering that graven images פסל (pesel) were not made but by heathen, i.e, Canaan, Babylon, Assyria, etc. Another words, the Israelites never made hewn images in stone, and this was Israel of the flesh, literal Israel. They were also commanded to erect altars of uncut stone (Ex. 20:25). Israelites were forbidden from making, possessing, or and I say or, worshipping such objects (Ex. 20:4).

Ask yourself, if this was Israel's prohibition, what should the spiritual Israel not be doing? Just a thought.

Painting has nothing to do with this. Pesel means graven image. Why did Israel understand this and we can't. THe brazen serpent, yes that too was torn down because people again lost the meaning behind it.

Southern never had this image, why do they need it now? Thats is all I am asking? Just a simple SAU student that could still be wrong, but what if I'm not...

"I thought JR was cool. He certainly had an edge- knew exactly how he felt about everything, but he had a great deal of respect for what he thought merited it."

J.R. Layman was a disgusting, obnoxious, foul-mouthed bully. He loved to use his ATomorrow bully pulpit to push people around and try to intimidate them. It was pathetic to see. I know more than a few people who fell victim to his viscous tirades when they disagreed with him.

Let the truth be known.

This week's SS lesson guide suggests we study Luke 15. Verses 23-25 may pertain to this thread.
"And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate... now his elder son was in the field and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing... " At least in the Bible people knew how to celebrate.

City Lights,

Regarding J.R. Layman.

You don't know Jack.

Now back to the regularly scheduled programming of the Stepford Adventist University kiddies and having a bad hair day.

I suppose you are going to try and make a case for portraying the late J.R. as a nice, sensitive, tolerant guy?

Right. Good luck with that.

Posted by City Lights - Fri, 02/25/2011 - 20:28
I suppose you are going to try and make a case for portraying the late J.R. as a nice, sensitive, tolerant guy?

I couldn't even make a decent case of that for myself, but may JR rest in peace. I have no animosity for the man, though he did deal me a peck o' misery in his day.

May all your hair days be good!

Maggie, I was actually talking to Charles whom suggested that I don't know jack about the situation. I know more than he thinks.

Concerned, I believe God invented play!

Laughter and play are God's gift to help us diffuse tense situations, if we care to avail ourselves of this lovely invention of God. We sure do have a lot of tense situations going, don't we?

God invented giggles!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVc2XWiZWq4

Feel all that good oxytocin flowing? That's the bonding hormone!

That said, I apologize, and will honor your request and not play here again, no hard feelings!

City Lights, I thought you meant me, since I was fondly sticking up for da neanderthal. But no prob. :)

Tanya, I hope you saw all the positive comments here as well and will hopefully ignore the small-mindedness of others who take umbrage at this beautiful demonstration of youthful fun and exuberance. There was absolutely nothing "non-Christian" about it! Congratulations on coordinating a "good thing". I'm sure many SAU students will remember this as one of the most positive, fun events in their college career. Keep the faith! (From an old SDA parent of a college student at Andrews and a recent grad of La Sierra.)

Isn't it a delicious irony that there are three recent blogs about peace while the two violent ones are concurrent (1. the Jared Wright bashing, and 2. the emotional , spiritual and verbal violence in the Southern University blog). There seems such a resistance in the Adventist church to get on the cause of societal and global peace, as if there is something wrong with that. I think the first place we need to get in order with peace is in our own hearts and in our own churches. A commitment to peace there would be welcome!

Hello City lights, hope your Sabbath was powerful and refreshing! I sure enjoyed attending the early service here at Collegdale Community to listen to Doug Bachelor speak on Holiness. Go to their website it may be up still. All the church could listen to what he was given to say by the Lord.

I just wanted to speak on the prodigal son for a moment.

* The ring placed on his finger... I do hate labels on church members such as conservative, ultra conservative, liberal, and on and on. I've heard a famous SDA pastor, speaker, say liberal are nice guys with bad ideas, I don't like this kind of thing.

But, if any SDA is a learner and searcher of Christ through His word. They would not respond as you say. Let me tell you why. The ring placed on the finger was not for adornment. This ring was a signet ring. It meant the Father was giving ownership of all that he had back to the son. THe son was now back in the family and had right to all the father owned. This signet ring was used on documents and wax was placed on the papyrus the ring placed over the wax, which had a been in mould or was engraved with a seal of the king or statesmen. It showed the agreement of the one wearing the ring, possibly the king himself or his representative on a covenant to be made. The robe represents the righteousness of Christ.

* Again, music has its place. Nothing wrong in celebration of one who has come back from the world (dead) to the Lord (life). You may be thinking some will attack this music but again there is a time and a place for everything. When it comes to the worship of GOd that is different. This isn't a worship service and so you won't hear much about this from anyone. At-least I don't think so.

* The meat... Nothing wrong in eating meat. However, it must be clean and it must have A L L the blood drained out of it. Remember, this was a parable, but the parable says it was a fatted calf, which is a clean meat. Next, they never ate meat where the blood was not drained out of it. Again nothing wrong with this and you shouldn't get controversy over this.

The problem with today is any supermarket you go to does not do this. Look at the meat they sell. It is reeeeeeeeed with blood! Fast food places have frozen meats shipped to them and it is prepped elsewhere. The blood is not drained out of the meat! Restaurants are the same way. This takes time and costs them money. TOday it is all about the money. THey don't have time or money to care about this.. God forbids the eating of blood in meat! This is biblical, the life is in the blood. Make complete sense if you eat the blood and any disease is in it you get it.

Its interesting to see today as I was in church. So many SDA's wearing jewelry. Men and women wearing earrings, yes men I said, and of course on the fingers and necks.

I wonder, maybe all them are new members... Maybe not. If so they just haven't studied this out yet and the HOly Spirit will reveal this to them. BUt if some are long time SDA's, what has happened? I have met lifetime SDA and they are now putting back on what we are told to take off. Rationalization has set in and they f e e l its really not that bad. Yet, they feel this was and come to this conclusion themselves outside of scripture.

I have only been an SDA for 6 years. I love this church and the message! For instance at Southern, one of my professors (in the religion dept.) told me that every time Israel was told to take off their JEwelry it was when they were in a time of judgment. This is coming from a Hebrew scholar. HE posed the question, as I thought the same, what time are we living in?

Have SDA forgotten the light that was given to our early church in a cornfield concerning the sanctuary? THe judgment? We are living in a time of judgment.

I've heard C.D. Brooks say that people tell him its just a little thing. HE said if its just a little thing then why not take it off. We are told to be faithful in the little things. Have we read what counsel that has been given by Mrs. WHite on jewelry? If so we would see what to do with it. She says it is a heart problem as to why people wont take it off and are willing to fight for it no matter what.

I also know that in the last days the church will appear as if its going to fall. Every which way we will seem to be in apostasy, but it will not fall. THis church will be shaken up. THose fighting for things they want so bad will leave, very simply. Others will come in to take their crown. Out of the church militant will come the church triumphant!

THere are those listening to our message and are starting to agree. Pastor Doug mentioned a Christian radio conference he is attended in Nashville and how famous Christian radio celebrities (such as Erwin Lutzer from Moody church) come up to him and tell him they agree with him on the Sabbath or death and such, and that they love his program and his messages. His point is that they are taking note and are listening in on our message. Many sheep from other folds must come and they will come.

Point is that SDA who are students of the bible will not give controversy to this parable. Those who think this parable meant that Christ gives the go ahead to wear jewelry and do other things are really making an isogesis of the text.

If we as a church would search our hearts as Israel did in the day of Atonement we would let go of many things we are trying to fight for. Including labels on the right or left. Probation is too short to fight for our right! We need to, as Dr. Pipim says, surrender our rights! Be in one accord, one faith, get revived! Ahh, revival of the heart.

Listen to the message, google it and you'll find it anywhere, by the man of GOd C.D. Brooks entitled "I want my church back" preached at Oakwood years ago and still relevant today.

Larsen-
Poking fun at a relatively new SDA is hardly a mature gesture. Why not apologize?

Maranatha, Your Friend, and Dick Larsen

To settle the issue---I suggest reading Ezekiel 16: 1-14.

Just a portion here: The Lord is relating all His has done for Israel in terms of his treatment of a cast away new born who grows to manhood.

"I clothed thee also with broldered work, and shod thee with badgers skin, and i girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornements, and I put brackets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead and earrings in thine ears and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver, and thy raiment was of fine linen and sil, and broidered----"

Jesus took his parable from this primary source. Tom Z.

Do you just read the Bible and interpret it how it is fitting for your use?
Or with a humble heart ask God to reveal his true purpose?
Why do you wear those gold rings? is it to the glory of God?
The real ornament or adornment is instruction of God and your earthly father and mother(as long as they are godly parents). The real jewelry is the hidden man of the heart, a meek and quiet spirit.
Do you put on that perishable stuff to impress others(of this world)? Or are you impressing the God of heaven Who will destroy Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
When Pro 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Pro 1:9 For they [shall be] an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.
Pro 1:10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 1Pe 3:4
But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 1Pe 3:5
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 1Pe 3:6
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Added we are the bride of Christ just as Sara is the bride of Abraham and we also should obey or submit to our husband Christ.

Donna

My thoughts exactly However, a Old Testament Scholar convinced me that the reference was to a male. I had first written it as female and was persuaded, unfortunately, to change the gender without rereading the entire passage. Thanks. Tom.

Actually Tom, your scholar was right - IF - one considers Israel to be male. God is speaking metaphorically to Israel as his bride - just as the church is God's bride - and we both know that Israel and the church are male. ;-)

Hsa 2:13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.
Who is putting on the jewels. God or yourself. The father or the prodigal. The prodigal is actually saying I am a sinner. I am not worthy. Don't read into the Bible the things that we think will give us a way out.

Romans 14:5 "One person decides that one day is holier than another. Another person decides that all days are the same. Every person must make his own decision."

Fay, correct me, but I think the only reasons to be depressed about all this are if:

1. One felt someone else had the right to make moral decisions for them (powerlessness).

2. One felt one had the right to make moral decisions for another (lack of healthy boundaries).

Feeling powerless is depressing. The solution is to take back one's own power of moral decision making.

Lack of boundaries is depressing too, because we can't control other people's moral decisions, and that takes us back to feeling powerless and depressed again.

The solution, I think, is to maintain healthy boundaries and allow others to make their own moral decisions, and to make our own moral decision with no apologies. Voila - no depression.

"Every person must make his own decision."

City Lights, I suggest that your "headache" is your own responsibility, just as Fay's feeling "depressed" is her own responsibility.

Meant friendly to both of you.

Your call, City Lights, if you feel you have to "get on the hamster wheel yet again."

"Every person must make his own decision."

My take: "headaches," "depression," and "going insane from being exposed to toxic, dysfunctional reasoning" only occur if you've inadvertently given your power away, and lack a sense of boundaries.

I almost succeeded in literally committing suicide over this, so I've been a few rounds on that wheel myself, you might say.

I don't recommend hopping on the hamster wheel from hell, but if you feel you must, it's your decision, of course. Don't let me stand in your light.

But...didn't Einstein say the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? I assume that you're not insane, City Lights, so I suggest that you may as well beat your head against a brick wall, if all you want is a headache.

It's only ourselves that we can change, by the grace of God, and that with excruciating difficulty. Changing others directly is a quixotic and doomed venture, in my experience.

Maybe I should buy stock in Tylenol....

That's okay, City, knock yourself out. Big smile.

Brother Tom Zwemer:
I took your suggestion and read Ezekiel 16:1-14. This too is a parable you know. JEwelry in the OT was used as a symbol of social status as their position or it identified their mark as a king or queen, this is not all of the reasons for jewelry but just one I say in the OT.

The nativity of Israel was traced to Egypt when the Hebrews were delivered and “born” as a nation at Mount Sinai (Exod 19:1–8). Ezekiel described normal birth practices such as rubbing the newborn with salt, water, and oil, then wrapping the baby in cloth strips for seven days and repeating the process for forty days. This was supposed to enhance the child’s character and promote general health and well-being for newborn children.

But Israel’s nativity was deprived of these rites. Instead, Israel was portrayed as a female abandoned at birth with no one to care for or have pity on her helplessness. This practice of exposure of sickly, deformed, and unwanted children was common in the ancient Near East, especially for unwanted female babies.

When she was unloved and no one else wanted her (Israel), God had compassion on her as she lay struggling in her own blood, and he rescued her and decreed her life by the word of his power.
God then cared for the nation and caused it to increase and flourish like sprouts in a field, language reminiscent of the growth of the nation in Egypt as described in. So she (Israel) prospered until she reached the maturity of womanhood. As a beautiful young woman of marriageable age, she became the wife of Yahweh/God as the Hebrew is written the divine name. Then, “spreading the corner” of a garment over a young woman was the ritual for claiming a bride. Unlike a marriage arranged by the parents, the arrangement in which the woman had no part, God made a “covenant” with her in which he pledged to care for her.

The symbolic act of spreading the lower part of one’s garment over another signified protection and betrothal (cf. Ruth 3:9). God pledged His fidelity to Jerusalem and took her as His own. The historical event to which this alludes could be the appointment of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and God’s dwelling place.
16:9-14. God clothed His betrothed in splendor befitting a queen. The waif who had the stench of blood was washed and anointed with ointments, or expensive perfumes. The girl who was naked now received an embroidered dress … leather sandals… . fine linen, and … costly garments. God put jewelry on her, including bracelets … a necklace, a ring on her nose, earrings, and a crown.

All this suggests that under God’s blessing during the reigns of David and Solomon Jerusalem became a magnificent city (cf. 1 Kings 10:4-5).

Besides receiving expensive jewelry and fine clothes Jerusalem also was given the choicest foods: fine flour, honey, and olive oil. Everything she could possibly need or want was lavished on her by her gracious, generous “Husband.” Being beautiful, she became a queen, and her beauty was known throughout the nations.

Had Ezekiel’s parable ended here, it would have been a beautiful rags-to-riches love story. But he added a bizarre twist to make the story correspond to the remainder of Jerusalem’s history. He reveals the unfaithfulness of this woman who was made a queen (Ezek. 16:15-34).

The queen is the status here and she didn't adorn herself this was done by the Father. Our righteousness is as filthy rags but HIs righteousness is as white as snow. However, she took off his bestowal of love and made other gods from HIs wonderful love towards her. Another words this whole parable is waaaay moor than jewelry. This has to do with God caring for his church/ bride and marries her and in that marriage she receives the riches of the king.

She takes those riches and makes idols of them and just as Satan was lifted up because of his beauty the same happened here.

Isaiah 3:16-23 there is another negative side. Israelite women who put on jewelry to beautify themselves attracting attention to their own proud persons.

Ezekiel 23:40 God's people are likened to a woman who paints her eyes and puts on ornaments (jewelry) in order to improve her appearance and to increase her sex appeal. Jeremiah 4:30 we have the same issues revisited as Israel attempts to make herself beautiful in her own eyes. This same thing is done by Jezebel in 2 Kings 9:30.

In Revelation we have a description of two women one who is adorned a decked with all precious jewels. In Rev. 17 one represents Babylon and the other is in Rev. 12 and her adornment is of a simple and meek spirit. The other woman represents the people of God and we need to take note at the contrast between the two.

THe prostitute or harlot is dressed to attract the world, but the other woman is dressed in white as in the color of heavenly glory and seems to be symbolic of purity, obedience, glory, and victory.

The whole point of this is this: when God adorns His people it is a privilege to be children of the king. Symbolic of royalty, His royalty, not the worlds. When we adorn ourselves it is of no value to be a "child of the ----" world.

I may be new to the church yes but how come I can understand this so many lifetime SDA can not? Have we read Ellen White's council on this? She is clear! I hope we have not thrown her counsel away as some have done.

Have we read the many other bible texts on jewelry, it is clear. WHen you have only one text to support one view but several others support another opposing view, the problem exists not in the bible but our understanding of it. So many others call for God's people to take it off.

Have we as SDA read what the Gen Conf. has given counsel on? They advocate self denial, economy, and simplicity should be in all areas of life. In the area of personal adornment necklaces, earrings, bracelets, jeweled and other ornamental rings should not be worn! Now, I know what the exception is and that is this: some countries the "custom" of wearing a marriage ring is considered imperative and is not considered ornamental and so they say in such cases they have no such disposition to condemn the practice. (church manuel, 1971 ed, 212).

IN our country there is no excuse for wedding "bands." People in this country could care less if she or he is wearing a wedding ring. THey will still have an affair with them regardless. I say wedding bands, but many SDA have stepped it up from wedding band to 2 karot diamond rings.

For me it comes down to this. The Holy SPirit only can bring convictions to people on any matter. I can study with people and have done so but the Holy Spirit has to convict not me. I'm just an instrument a seed sower but the Holy Spirit brings forth the fruit. I implore more SDA to study this out with no presuppositions but with an open heart and allow the Holy Spirit to work.

HE will lead you into all truth.

Fay, if I didn't make it clear before, of course you have every right to look at these issues in the way that makes most sense to you.

I responded to a public statement and my response was that we all have other choices than to have our feelings taken hostage by people who disagree with us.

Perhaps an "ain't it awful" response would have been more resonant with you, but that's not the way I feel, and I don't think it would have been a realistic response from me.

And I didn't even mean it as a simply personal response, actually. It's really just a metacommunication response which you merely prompted, about a fairly universal communication issue we have going here, it seems to me, namely, the implicit belief that nothing good can happen, that there's no hope until they change.

I don't believe that.

Hmmm...I see the video has been taken down....I'm thankful for that...at least it is a small step in the right directioin....

Maranatha, you have demonstrated that you have been well indoctrinated and brainwashed by fundamentalists, nothing more. Your reasoning is what is weak and it will fall like a flimsy shack in a tidal wave in time, so prepare for that. You don't even see that I am correct and there is NOT ONE SINGLE TEXT forbidding jewelry. Not ONE. It is only a misinterpretation of the texts in question (and yes, I have read them all) which is being force-fed to you by anti-jewelry advocates that you are defending.

Study the Word without your EGW blinders and then you can come and talk to me about the issue. Until then, go give someone else your pat, regurgitated Amazing Facts reasoning. I have been around the Adventist block too many years for your smoke and illusion, I have seen the wizard behind the Conservative SDA curtain and it ain't a thing to be afraid of. Quite pathetic actually.

I have neither the time, nor the inclination, nor the patience to debate the issue with you further. You have chosen your style of fundamentalist Adventism, so have fun with that. Just keep it far, far from me.

Christ says: "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Fundamentalist Adventism says: "The burden is light? WHAT? That can't be right. CHEAP GRACE. Let's pile on some more here and here and here and...oh, what about here? Load some more here, and here, and here, and here, and here........"

Nope. You aren't going to crush me with your legalistic, man-made requirements so don't even try.

Oops, I meant to say, 'Did Abel's blood really cry out'

Yes there is not a single text that says we should never wear jewelry and there is not a single text that says we should never smoke. There isn't any text that says thou shalt not jump off the empire state building. Why not be Liberal in our thinking as SDA's? Of course I know by my own experience(as a general concept comprises knowledge of or skill in or observation of some thing or some event gained through involvement) They overcame by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony. Here is mine(testimony). Listening to rock music, the beat of rock music,watching worldly movies all of my years as a young nominal Christian influenced my thinking to where I was entrenched in porn and extramarital affairs. This took my wife and I through a divorce and I almost succeeded in suicide. Ellen White has said many many times that by beholding we become changed. The computer terminology is garbage in garbage out. If you need a bible text there is one 2nd Cor 3:18 You may think that this stuff is benign however though my experience its not. This is why I am so passionate about this subject. What our modern day Prophet has told us is truth (Amittai) and we should listen. When we sin Satan has just given us a beating. When God punishes (chasten and rebukes) us its mercy do to the fact that he loves us and is trying to get us to repent and convert (change our thoughts and turn our way around towards heaven and ultimately in the relationship again with God our lover and maker) I have children now and I take the text that says spare the rod spoil the child to heart because I love them. I want them to learn to obey because its better to obey than to sacrifice, The sacrifice comes because we didn't obey. Jesus or someone has to pay the penalty. Its better to get the spanking now than to pay the penalty of eternal ruin at the end of the age. And why don't we see the awfulness of the sacrifice Jesus paid. Do you think its OK to keep sinning and keep using his sacrifice to allow us to keep up this process(sinning and asking for forgiveness) forever? Shouldn't we take the verse everyone knows by heart to heart. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. O maybe your not an SDA in actuality. Maybe your a person who believes in reincarnation or purgatory or some other form of another chance after this life. What if per chance this is the only chance one gets? Are you going to take that chance? I for one am happy every day I get out of bed because that is one more chance my God has given me to breath in and out and make a new start.

Show me how Paul makes this quite clear? 1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Jesus says to the people Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.Mat 23:24[Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Jesus tells them to NOT to leave the other undone.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is saying least commandment and you are talking about majoring in the minors. Are you a judge against Jesus also? Jesus means our motive is love and that is the reason we do the things he is asking us to do or not do. Why do you think he asked Eve not to eat the fruit in the Garden of Eden if God doesn't think the small things are important?

Luk 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much

.Luk 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

as for the comment of slippery slope to salvation by works

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

We are righteous only in Christ but many are denying the power of Christ.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

there are 300 text that talk about saved by grace alone and 500 text that talk about how we are judged by our works. How do we reconcile the difference. The scale or the way to judge how we are doing in terms of our relationship with Jesus is to see how much we love him by keeping His commandments that are all about love. The idea of grace is cheapened when we think we can never achieve perfection in the power of Christ. We can overcome. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Do you love your live here on earth? Is eating and drinking and giving in marriage more important? 1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

Are you applauding the acts of those movie stars and rock stars and what they sing about or portray on the big screen or in you living room 42in big screen? By beholding we become changed. Mark my words. Your are what you eat (watch, listen to etc.) I am guessing you don't understand the power of influence.

City LIghts:

I got to thinking and I wanted to share some websites if your interested. The Mayer brothers used to be camera men in Hollywood industry and because of what they saw taking place in the making of the movies and production they left and expose the realities of this thing. They were in it, high paid camera men. (Battlefield Hollywood series)

Check them out:
http://www.littlelightministries.com/little_light_ministries/PRODUCT.html

Then Christian Berdahl, out of Edgewood, New Mexico has a great ministry called SHepherd's call and was also a high paid camera man the Hollywood industry. This guy has no musical training and God has blessed him with a voice that could only come from the creators hand. But, he also exposes the media in music and T.V... You can listen to his music for free on his site. Some of the best godly music bar none. If any want to see him and you in the TN area, he will be at the ASI meetings in Dalton in April.

http://www.shepherdscall.com/article.php?id=50

http://www.distractiondilemma.com/Home.html

Then we have Brian Neumann. He was also a guitar player in the music industry playing rock. He too left the rock industry and now he make beautiful guitar music and he sings to them too. His DVD's also expose the inner working of the music industry and the studies that are medically sound showing what this does to the heart and brain. (Voices of a dying planet series)

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/webstore/us/p?ad_topic=145

These DVD's are very powerful and based on facts that are clearly presented in a manner that leaves no questions unanswered. The only question becomes after watching these is, how will thou harken between two opinions? I've presented these in churches and people were really blessed by them even people that were visiting that you would say are post modern. This was right up their alley of post modern thinking, these are a blessing.

Just wanted to share...

Hello Jay,
I believe the one in OR. that used to be, or maybe still is run by Louis Torres.
Mission school of evangelism. I believe this where David Asscherick went
to school. I could be wrong, but I think it was this school.

I have friends that have attended AFCOE and ARISE and have received a
great education. I've had in depth discussions with them and I'm very
impressed at their training. I would agree that these schools are doing
just a wonderful job, may all glory be to God.