Yea I would probably be one of the ones saysing “Oh, come on! Don’t be silly!” these are not the most evil words spoken.

I would recommend when you hear someone say those words “There are things that I’m not at liberty to say.” You say; Well we heard you say that you have nothing you can say therefore you have said nothing and we will act accordingly and disregard your statement since it said nothing anyway.

I bet they will be pretty embarrassed and you will have done nothing but spoken the truth.

Ron

There's a certain freedom in having your reputation smashed to smithereens, beyond all hope.

You can just be yourself and people will be pleasantly surprised.

Someone once said to me, "Wow, you're really nice - I expected you to have horns and a tail!"

Falling between the slats has its upside. :)

Maggie,

This is the finest way to diffuse allegations. Simply ignore those who would accuse or even have the temerity to mention a rumor. This is the best defense: go on your way with head held high and carry on. Soon it will be shown who your true friends are between the "fair-weather" ones who no one needs anyway.

True, Elaine, but it took me years to come out of the woodwork (to the extent that I have).

I do understand that to have "justice denied" is a very great offense, and to have innuendo floating about is nearly intolerable because it's completely uncontrollable.

Still, freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose....

Pastor Coffin,

Please read Gospel Workers p 196

Thank you for your article. I agree the words are evil--maybe not the most evil--Adolf Hitler's words may have competed for that title--however they are some of the most evil words any Christian can say because an innuendo or even a misunderstanding could damage a person's reputation.

RANT ALERT:

My husband wanted to start a men's group in one church and the pastor later for political reasons brought this up and actually asked a question insinuating that my husband had possibly done something he never did and never had any interest in doing. This was suggested behind closed doors in an elders meeting so we had no knowledge of it to defend the truth. Then next week our church elders were as cold as ice. We suffered for several weeks being treated like lepers before one of the elders who had been to our house and worshipped with us and realized what the pastor said was untrue, and told us the truth.

The result was that the elder was then ostracized, but I am so glad they told us! Eventually it all got straightened out but the manipulative, gossiping, lying pastor never ever apologized or owned his crime and the conference never even prayed with us on the phone when we called or came down when we asked them for help in dealing with him for reconciliation.

As a matter of fact the conference supported him in tying up our membership. We lost respect for the ministerial director of our conference and that pastor and went to a different church.

What we have learned is that it does not matter where our membership is since our names are written in the Lamb's book of life. We have also discovered that the true body of Christ is not confined to the SDA church and especially not controlled by the conference officials. When I hear that the conference is running low on funds, I don't even blink an eye because I sent my tithe somewhere else. I have come to the conclusion (as Ellen White did years ago) that the conference is no longer the voice of God.

BTW--The way they dealt with that abusive Pastor when he kept running off the members, was to move him on. It took three years of complaints from the elders and then they finally moved him to another church to do whatever damage he can do somewhere else. At another local church, a minister was finally caught in an affair-- twenty years after he should have been let go for the last affair. And I myself walked in on a pastor having a girl between his knees in another church years ago. That pastor denied it and simply got moved on until she produced her diary.

For different work related reasons we have moved a lot. I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have had to deal with pastors who do not even care that they do not walk the talk. For shame that our double standard from the conference is to keep things hush hush if it is a pastor's indiscretions, but allow a pastor to infer negative and untrue things about a member behind closed doors. I view the conference as unsafe because they basically cover for their corrupt friends and move them on to do more damage somewhere else. We need an accountability system for ministers so that people can trust the conference to tell the truth and protect innocent people. Maybe then the tithes would not be dwindling.

I am so glad to know that God is bigger than men's schemes.

"Still, freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose...."

Is that from the song "Me and 'Maggie' McGee?"

Have a great day, Maggie. :)

To Cherilyn and the many others who are hurting like her:

God will deal with Phinehas and Hophni. (See 1 Samuel 3:11-14) While His judgment may not be swift, it is certain.

Stephen, yup. Willie sings it best. Have a good 'n. :)

Ha, ha. I lean a little more toward Janis Joplin's version, but I like Willie, too. I don't know if you like Janis, but if you do, you might want to listen to Susan Tedeschi on YouTube. :)

Wasn't it Martin Luther King who said that justice deferred was justice denied? When the church organization acts as Cherilyn describes, and we all are aware that it does happen and is too often covered up just as the Roman Catholic church kept transferring priests, the trust in the denomination is irrevocably lost.

The only recourse is to send our tithes and offerings where we have far more control and can see the books and know how the money is being used. Since we can't do that with mandatory government taxes, the church is strictly voluntary and we should have control over how our gifts are used. To do otherwise is to be negligent of what has been given us.

Stephen, I lean towards Willie. I hope we can still be friends. :)

Elaine, regarding "justice deferred is justice denied," I trust Jim will forgive my linking what he has posted publicly on the Internet:

http://justicedeniedjamescoffin.blogspot.com/2008/08/33-of-54-email-from...

Stephen, you're looking forward to God's "certain judgment" are you?

I mean, I know what the Bible says about Phinehas and Hophni and their ilk (the word "ilk" and judgment always go together, ever notice that?), but I just can't get into the story, ya know?

Well...maybe it's just that I'm evil...but I just can't to get into the story of God's certain judgment.

God who?

Off topic: I saw Janis Joplin way back in 1969...November, in Charlotte, NC. I was a young, barely 17 year old... it was magic! A wonderful memory. Carry on.

Thank you Stephen and Elaine for your kind words of encouragement.

And thank you Maggie for reminding us that God's justice is redemptive rather than punitive.

While it may have hurt us at the time, we were then forced to go to another church where we discovered a much better picture of God. As a result, we ended up going to the Good News Tour which changed our lives and we have slept peacefully every night since!

Understanding God's grace has caused us to look at that Pastor and those who supported him in his behavior with compassion. While I will not go back for more abuse or contribute money to that failed system, I can honestly say that I have no bitter feelings toward any of them--we've all made mistakes.

How I wish that those who are so hurtful to others could only know that God does not manhandle and manipulate His way even to punish us. We all imitate the God we worship and from his sermons back then, the picture of God that he displayed was very controlling. I can honestly look at him with love and actually pray for God to heal him too. That to me, is God's redemptive justice! : )

"And thank you Maggie for reminding us that God's justice is redemptive rather than punitive."

God's justice is redemptive precisely because it is punitive. Without punitive justice, there is no redemption.

Bill Sorensen

Hi, Maggie

The lesson I got from the story of Samuel and Phinehas and Hophni is that God did not expect Samuel to begin a never-ending tirade against the two errant priests. While He used Samuel to deliver a message to Eli, He clearly expected Eli and not Samuel to have dealt with the problem. When Eli failed to do as he was asked, God warned him of the result. Nowhere is there record in the Bible of Samuel speaking one word of rebuke against Phinehas and Hophni. He was called of God, but he never attempted to usurp God's authority to deal with other people's failings.

Even Michael, the Archangel, would not rebuke the Devil (Jude 1:9) but demonstrated that this was the Lord's work. We all too often freely rebuke those guilty of lesser sins (as we ALL are.) In doing so, we wound and destroy those whom God has paid a very high price to redeem. Is it reasonable to expect a heavenly reward for doing this?

Sorensen, I don't see how burning people alive, in great wrath, and leaving them deader than doornails is redemptive.

Could it be that Cherilyn has emotionally processed her experiences with the church more deeply than you have? Only you can answer that question, and I'm not asking for a public answer.

Stephen, I agree that "we all too often freely rebuke those guilty of lesser sins," and I think we have too little curiosity about what is going on psychologically with us when we do that.

In the last week or ten days I've had to apologize repeatedly to the same person for continually reflexively projecting my "stuff" on him, someone I've never actually met - sheesh! (I've been isolated in the mountains for three weeks, and it really dredged up my "stuff!")

The sheer frequency of my doing that, and the absolute certainty I had, in the moment, that it was his "stuff," has given me new respect for my ability to shift blame in a virtual trancelike state.

Well, maybe I'm the only person in the world who does stuff like that....

"Well, maybe I'm the only person in the world who does stuff like that...."

I do it too!

I really liked this "we have too little curiosity about what is going on psychologically with us when we do that"

And especially, "There's a certain freedom in having your reputation smashed to smithereens, beyond all hope."

That's the deepest and most honest thing I have seen on this website for many months.

Maggie, Thank you so much for sharing.

"Sorensen, I don't see how burning people alive, in great wrath, and leaving them deader than doornails is redemptive."

Obviously, it won't do them any good, will it Maggie? But it can save you and me if we take seriously the implications of God's wrath and why He does it.

We must asssume they have been adequately warned just as we are. If we ignore the warning, then we can expect the out come is certain.

Didn't Noah warn the people of his day about the wrath of God?

If people refuse to listen, then, no, it is not redemptive. But for those who do, it is.

Seriously Maggie, how is this so difficult to understand?

Bill

Cherilyn,

Thanks for the rant. I am a fellow ranter of Ranters Anonymous and usually fall of the wagon.

Here is how you are blessed>>>> like it says in Desire of Ages...His experiences are to be our experiences..even the negative ones.. so we can grow in wisdom and realize that humans are deceived LAW trashing, GOD hating rebellious criminals in need of God's REHAB. Those pastors are criminals who are skipping the REHAB program. If they do NOT successfully complete the REHAB program, they will miss out on eternity and their claim to JESUS' blood, time in job, SDA membership will be worthless...like all other SDA or "Christians".

Seriously Maggie, how is this so difficult to understand?

Oh, I understand fear perfectly well, Sorensen.

I have no doubt that a being with all the power in the universe could frighten me into doing or saying just about anything it wanted, reduce me to a submissive, cowering, gelatinous blob.

Except for one thing...

How that all-powerful being could frighten me into loving it is beyond my comprehension.

Frighten me into "obedience"...heck yeah.

Frighten me into loving it? Huh?

God who?

Chris, this goes to the heart of the matter, I think.

Does God demand we make bricks without straw? Does God demand we love Him or be burned alive? Holy cow - think about that!

How can one produce love on pain of death for not producing it, well-warned as Sorensen points out we are?

Only when every last thing has been pried from our white-knuckled hands (not my reputation, Lord!), when we have suffered the loss of all things, though not entirely voluntarily (okay, kicking and screaming), and have counted them as dung, though not entirely voluntarily (see above on 'kicking and screaming'), can we start to realize that freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, and only then will some of the color start to come back to our fear-bleached faces.

We'll not start to take back our projections until we throw off enough fear to do so, for the projections are fear-driven, I believe. God is a "hard man," so we have believed.

Fear is entrancing. Compassion is enlightening.

If the knee-jerk reaction to an offense is not compassion, scratch the surface, and, lo, there is an ancient fear.

Emotionally process the fear, and the offense will have evaporated.

When mercy and truth are met together; when righteousness and peace have kissed each other, they form a tertium quid, a third thing, a standing wave, a new song.

http://www.walter-fendt.de/ph14e/stwaverefl.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpEevfOU4Z8

Pastor Coffin makes a good point. I understand him not to be calling for a literal ban on the words but to highlight the poison inherent in the formulation. He doesn't unpack the idea of innuendo enough but we can see for ourselves how damning those words can be from people who we think are in the know.

What the words translate to is: yea the individual did this terrible thing, and I should be able to tell you but some silly rule prevents me from telling you. Go figure!

But what is the solution? A simple "No comment"? How about "I am not going to tell you anything"? Or (the one I actually like) "Go f___ yourself"?

__ figure

Pastor Jim Coffin,
I read your pain.
Pain is when you find out your family is not true in its dealings with truth.
Our family went off the rails with truth when EGW died.
Truth to be honest with its members on the facts.
Then it became a business and businesses have to protect themselves. Money is big business and the route of all evil.

Just ask those who got fired in the late seventies and early eighties over the Ford fiasco.
Truth was never asked of those who were fired.
Just fired.

Things have a habit of going full circle.
How sad when there are more ex than members.

DOCTOR TOM ZWEMER:

TODAY AT CHURCH WE LEARNED THAT AN IMPORTANT AREA OF PRINCE HALL, WHICH HOUSES LLU's SCHOOL OF DENTISTRY, IS NOW NAMED IN HONOR OF YOU. CONGRATULATIONS AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR MANY YEARS OF DISTINGUISHED SERVICE HERE AND ELSEWHERE!

David Larson
Loma Linda, California

Thanks Dave

I count my years at LLU as a great blessing and a wonderful learning experience. I am highly honored by the recognition. The Church should be proud of the contributions of its faculty and students for 50 years. It has produced more than its share of nationally recognized leaders and contributors to hundreds of communities and nations. Tom

"INNUENDO" is bad, but could these be the worst words ever...?

"arbeit macht frei".....which headlined the massacre of millions of Gods self claimed favorite tribe, with neither God nor the church intervening?

or could it be:
""I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206&version=CEV

which also resulted in the alleged, deliberate massacre of (probably) millions of people and even innocent animals and babies.
if we believe everything literally.

or is this the worst word picture we could imagine?

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever."
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

so, for those who want to avoid dismemberment from fellowship and arguments at pot lucks, they must fundamentally accept that in the end, God will raise up the "wicked", show them where they went wrong, finally explain everything to them in coherent, concise, credible fashion, and then just as they cry out....

..."Why didn't you tell me THAT way earlier!!! I might have believed!!! why did You allow your Book of Words to differ so from your Book of Rocks? I mean...who proof read Kings and Chronicles?"...

...then, abandoning the Christian concept of forgiveness, and 2nd chances our Loving God BBQ's them, in pain and agony, while still alive.....

"AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER".

again, if we believe everything literally.

John, how long must we wait until a "good and trusted" Adventist theologian comes on this forum and 'splains that wonderful concept contained in the Fundamentals:

"The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever."
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Is this not a repeat of the flood story? Or the numerous incidents told in the OT where entire tribes were specifically directed by God to "utterly destroy" them?

Are all of them literally acceptable and true? Even the last great act of God told above where the biggest barbecue will be held while saints look out over the walls? What a garish and barbaric event that we will see and then proclaim that God is just and merciful and loving??

No need to wait for anyone to splain anything, Elaine.

No need to wait for the fire of God to come down on the unrighteous and consume them at the end of the world.

Let the fire of God come down on us now, and consume all that is not good from us, including our belief that we are separate from each other, and that the unrighteous are "other."

All offenses dissolve in the healing, consuming fire of God.

Maggie, am I to assume that the Bible's "strange acts" or all metaphors? Is anything literal? Or, can we individually decide what is literal or metaphorical?

I don't type from God's lips to your ears, Elaine. Ellen White I ain't. You best be decidin' fer yerself.

I just type from my heart into the great abyss of cyberspace.

There are so many of those "strange acts of God" in the Good Book that my metaphorizer plumb wore out, I will say that.

..."the biggest barbecue will be held while saints look out over the walls?"...

ah, yes...WALLS.... stone walls...probably made out of limestone blocks, taken from quarries where shallow seas had created limestone out of the mega death of tiny marine animals and their calcarous shells, mega years ago.

And the walls have 12 gates, to represent completeness, like Jacob had to have 12 kids to have a "complete" family, just like ancient goat herders saw during the "complete" night of 12 hrs and 12 signs of the zodiac while watching constellations like Orion the Hunter chase the Big and Little Bear (dipper) across the sky-dome.

Having a complete family (tribe, or followers) of 12 became so important, that after finally helping himself at advanced age (and probable impotence) to produce another son, this last son was named...Son of my right hand (Ben-son of, Jamin).

Thus, mythology developed that required heaven to have walls, like ancient cities, and natch, 12 gates, and with gold being the most valuable commodity, the streets are paved with it instead of asphalt, which in heaven as on earth would only come from the mega death of gazillions of tiny marine organisms compacted under a shallow sea and cooked into oil under millions of years and tons of pressure of overlying layers. And since John the Rev said there is no more sea....and we here in the USA had already used up all the fossil oil.....gold will have to do.

But the worst metaphor is that we the saved, will be able to pry into the past lives of the wicked which are standing trial...right there in front of us.....and we will be able to applaud as God burns them in pain.

Ya, Hitler!!! take that!!! burn, baby burn!!!
And Bill, we really liked ya, but that one slip up in the White House?...why did you have to lie on TV???
and Martin Luther K..WHAT? whatsup with him over there? didntyall think he had done so much good??!!! Oh, God...why do him? just for a few extra marital efforts to spread the word?

So there could be a downside to being impounded on this jury of saints at the Great and Final Inquisition:

what happens if, hypothetically, you or I are there on the good side, having been saved, and we spot a friend or loved one on the outside, with Gods flamethrower pointed directly at them, God's finger on the trigger!!!

What will be our thoughts then? if we had always known that friend as an upright and perfect person? but the final inquisition finds that they died in a car crash with one unforgiven sin? (possibly swearing (oh, SH..) just as the 18 wheeler ran them over) and therefore they must be BBQ'ed.

I don't see how heaven will be a completely enjoyable place after that, despite our being able to fly on angels wings (eliminating the need for walls or gates, or streets?), and finally being able to learn just how it all works (like, how did some mushrooms become poisonous 6kyo just because Eve was deceived by a talking snake God apparently forgot to warn her about).

or am I taking things too metafearically?

and the really worst words are...

"I TOLD YOU SO"

Someone, please, say "It ain't so."

If anyone is still listening, I just want to say how ironic it is for me that this conversation has taken a turn from the topic of inappropriate innuendos and false gossip to the death of the wicked.

Our dishonest pastor used force, manipulation and coercion and basically tried to kill our reputation so he could have it his way. The conference turned a deaf ear because as I was told (by one conference worker off the record of course) that there appears to be so many dysfunctional pastors that they have no choice but to move them on to do damage somewhere else. Sadly, I wanted to know where does justice comes into play for God's church.

Then as a result of going to another SDA church, I learned about a seminar that taught that God's justice is redemptive and only if we refuse God, will we lose out on eternal life--not because of God cutting us off, but because we cannot stand to be in God's presence. I totally got it because that pastor and at least one conference personnel have never looked us in the eye since. It appears when you have done something you are not proud of, that you cannot face the other person.

So does God have to kill those who can't stand to be in His presence? I don't think so, God does not need to use His power to hold people alive and torture and bbq them. If that were the case, then that manipulative, hurtful pastor is closer to some people's view of God than Jesus. Since Heb. 1:3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, I'm gonna have to go with the fact that Jesus killed NO ONE when He was here and He taught love.

The dichotomy of Jesus vs. the God at the end who BBQs sinners, just does not match up to Jesus' words in Matthew 5:43-48. Either Jesus was one with the Father and really knew the Father, or else His description of how to imitate the Father is not really how the Father would act. As a church we are lacking continuity between Jesus' manifestation of God, what He said the Father was like and how we teach people to fear God. JMHO

Posted by: Cherilyn | 08 February 2010 at 11:12

I just want to say how ironic it is for me that this conversation has taken a turn from the topic of inappropriate innuendos and false gossip to the death of the wicked.

I think this is the logical place Adventist doctrine, taken literally, leaves us, because it is a Crime-and-Punishment motif through and through. Not even a little ironic to me, Cherilyn.

What do unrepentant people who speak The Most Evil Words Ever Spoken deserve in the Crime-and-Punishment motif?

Elementary, my dear Watson.

If you want to end up in a different place, start with different premises, I would say.

I like the growth motif, myself....

Maggie,

As always... it is a pleasure to hear your thoughts. I enjoy your sense of humor and your ability to think outside the box!
Have a great week! : )

Maggie, how can your comment be answered:

"I think this is the logical place Adventist doctrine, taken literally, leaves us, because it is a Crime-and-Punishment motif through and through."

And the Ol'Debil will get you in the end! Never to be assured that you haven't forgotten one unconfessed sin, it leads directly to throwing it all out. Why try if one can never be certain she could possibly be good enough?

Remember the magazine cover (can't remember the name) with the funny looking guy who said: "Me, why worry?"

I hope Jim doesn't think I'm picking on him or minimizing the pain that this situation has caused him and his family.

I know from experience that these things are excruciating and one feels trapped, abused and helpless to do anything about it. I did - for years on end.

But...when you get in deep water, become a diver.

Okay, I'm always telling these dopey stories about myself (at least Cherilyn digs them)...by the way, Cherilyn, it's easy to think outside the box when you've already fallen through the slats....

Elaine: Alfred E. Newman

http://www.leconcombre.com/concpost/fr/postcard4/alfred_e_neuman.jpg

Back to dopey story...

Snowed all night in Boulder. Decided to take the bus to work. Trudged out at 7:00 a.m. with nifty new Yaktrax on newly nimble feet and fluffy parka obscuring view of the world.

Stood in doorway waiting for late #225 bus...listening to lovely Buddhist meditation about tonglen practice...bus didn't come...didn't come...Skip bus came...hmmmm...maybe 225 doesn't stop here - I'll ask the nice Skip driver....

Bad idea. Skip driver breathes fire at stupid woman for being so stupid as to ask stupid question. Look at the sign, stupid woman. Oh...that sign? The one that says 225 on it?

Full-on shame spiral reaches toes in millisecond. Bus full of people witness blushing yelled-at woman with now-forgotten cool Yaktrax thinking rapidly, in this order....

Thinks about disappearing through trap door. Not practical.
Thinks about retort with bad word. Rejects.
Thinks about taking name and reporting rude man. Rejects.
Thinks about how child/man's parents undoubtedly made child/man feel the way stoopid child/woman feels now.

Oh yeah - the tonglen meditation playing in ear at this very moment!

Heart blossoms open in millisecond and no-longer-stoopid woman beams at poor unhappy child/man and says, "I hope you have a really good day, sir." And amazingly, she means it.

No-longer-stoopid woman goes back to her doorway hidey-hole in wonder at how easy that was, and feeling very happy.

Reflects on how many years wasted feeling stoopid when such a shortcut existed. Still loves self. Realizes will probably feel stoopid lots more times. Okay with that.

THE PRACTICE OF TONGLEN

In order to have compassion for others, we have to have compassion for ourselves.

In particular, to care about other people who are fearful, angry, jealous, overpowered by addictions of all kinds, arrogant, proud, miserly, selfish, mean —you name it— to have compassion and to care for these people, means not to run from the pain of finding these things in ourselves.

In fact, one's whole attitude toward pain can change. Instead of fending it off and hiding from it, one could open one's heart and allow oneself to feel that pain, feel it as something that will soften and purify us and make us far more loving and kind.

The tonglen practice is a method for connecting with suffering — ours and that which is all around us — everywhere we go.

It is a method for overcoming fear of suffering and for dissolving the tightness of our heart. Primarily it is a method for awakening the compassion that is inherent in all of us, no matter how cruel or cold we might seem
to be. ...

Rather than beating yourself up, use your own stuckness as a stepping stone to understanding what people are up against all over the world.

Breathe in for all of us and breathe out for all of us.

Use what seems like poison as medicine. Use your personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings.

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/tonglen1.php

Some things transcend all creeds and religions. Some things simply work because they are in harmony with God.

James

I agree with your premise. However, in government and in corporations, including denominations there are issues that legally must be discussed in executive session. However even then, the decision and its basis must be openly disclosed--the details of the deliberation may be held in confidence. However, this process is greatly abused as you point out.

Even in jury trials, the jury is only required to declare its vrdict. The jurors may or may not at their choosing discuss their vote and reasons. The judge may in certain situations instruct the jurors not to discuss their deliberations following their verdict.

In the main, these secret actions are an abomination and an insult. Yet almost without exception an "executive board" a subset of the full board will predetermine the course of action and rail road it through the full board or constituency. The full board or constituency being mere window dressing. That is why, I always demanded that my vote be recorded in the minutes. I was willing to take full responsibility for my actions and vote but not for the hatchings of others.

An example, LLU Board was asked to approve a School of Public Health. The proposal declared that accreditation standards require five departments with three full professors, three associate professors, and three assistant professors in each discipline. That seemed vary odd to me having served for a number of years on accreditation boards. I researched the accreditation requirement published by the Public Health Accrediting Board. It merely stated that three disciplines within the domain of Public Health be taught with an adequate mix of senior and junior faculty with credentials related to the discipline.

I pointed that out at the Board Session. The Dean designate replied. Yes but as a SDA institution I can't teach only within those three, I need five to teach the unique fundamentals of Adventist Public Health. I pointed out that the disciplines named by the Accreditors were so broad as to allow almost any defensable content. Furthermore, the mix of senior and junior faculty was an institutional matter not a requirement. The dean designate replied: Yes but I want it this way! The Executive Board had previously agreed, even though I had mailed each a summary of the Accreditation Standards. So LLU got five departments with a plethera of faculty. It is a very good school with a very selfish self centered costly origin. The curriculum is also typical--the readings may include the Red Books as one source. An assignment that could be made by a newly minted instructor.

Tom