Thanks for the report!!

I notice that Ellen White as a theologian was treated. I have no way of knowing what was said.

My own graduate research on the topic is still very much a work in progress but it appears to me that Randy Maddox's alternative theological paradigm that he developed for John Wesley and which he terms "Practical Theology" is very usefully applied to Ellen White. (He actually has called on others to apply this alternative theological paradigm to other voices within Christianity including those within marginal western traditions).

This alternative theological paradigm seeks to recast the dominant theological model, and return to the understanding of theology that is more like that of the theology of the early centuries of the Christian era. Such theology sought to "norm and form the believer's worldview" and guide the practice of Christianity in the Christian's life. Hence, it is termed practical.

The central feature of the Maddox model of "practical theology" is that at the core of Christian theology there lies an "orienting concern" which guides the emphases and concerns of any particular theology. I assert that the Great Controversy Theme is Ellen White's "orienting concern."

Thus to recast theology in such terms with reference to Ellen White will almost certainly help us understand the inner dynamic of her theology.

For me, such a Great Controversy Theme is a central Biblical concern that empowers a theology of rebellion against evil in the life and witness of the Christian. However, in the early centuries of the Christian era, the Christian Church embraced a more philosophical model in which evil and suffering was a thing to be explained primarily, and not resisted. Such a theology sought to explain the inscrutible ways of God and became a theology of resignation in the face of evil, rather than of rebellion against it.

Peter Marks,
Professor of English
Sahmyook University

interesting! thanks for the report!

Peter:

Good stuff! I look forward to reading the results of your research.

David Hamstra
apokalupto

"We met in the church that Ellen White and her family attended in Portland. It was the church that once dropped the Harmon family from membership. Then it was a Methodist church. Now it is Unitarian."

Interesting. Has the building been remodeled or is it essentially the same structure as it was in the 19th century?

glennspring,
I read the same concluding remark of Thompson's as allegorical or parabolic, whether or not it was his intention. The thought that came to me was what if Ellen White were to be dropped from our collective experience, as may have already happened in the religious life of individual Adventists. Might we witness a similar transformation of former Adventist churches to Unitarian?

"Might we witness a similar transformation of former Adventist churches to Unitarian?"

Some Adventist churches have already separated, what would is so detrimental as the Unitarians? Certainly, they practice more inclusivity than Adventists, who seem, officially, to becoming more exclusivist.

Elaine,
Exclusivist Adventist in the sense of dropping Ellen White from their collective memory and blocking out everything she meant to us as a people?

EGW should be claimed as a founder, along with her husband, Joseph Bates, and other contemporaries.

However, to place her on a pedestal as a prophet, like Joseph Smith, has deified her in the Adventist concept to its everlasting shame. Because she often gave some very ill-considered, even erroneus advice, she abused the prophetic label which others had given her.

What "she meant to us as a people" can, and should be in historical reflection, which is entirely different than claiming her as a prophet today. Even biblical prophets spoke for a particular time to a particular people as did EGW. To canonize her voluminous writings has been detrimental to the church's educated members, and as they become increasingly more conversant in history and the varieties of religious experience, she should rightfully be delegated to history as no longer on that pedestal.

Can anyone deny that this is not the policy when every Review has an article by someone so long dead? The official church has continued to encourage buying her many compilations and in the numerous quotations almost solely limited to her in the SS quarterly, as the only and true commentary on Scripture.

...what would is so detrimental as the Unitarians? Certainly, they practice more inclusivity than Adventists...

**************************************************************

Elaine...

Yes, broad inclusivity is always possible when what one stands for leaves belief in God, and particularly Jesus Christ, as an optional matter...such as in organizations like Unitarianism. But, as soon as radical discipleship and belief in Jesus are introduced into the picture, the crowd thins out...see Jn. 6. Jesus experienced such in his own life. If you want to call that exclusivism, fine.

I prefer to see it as if you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.

Thanks...

Frank

Elaine, since we're friends, I can say this to you. =)

Where do you get off telling people what they "should" believe about EGW?

Who died and made you God?

As I keep saying, this is not an academic problem, this is a people problem.

As a former highly conservative SDA, I know I had very, very good reasons for believing the way I did.

True, I have changed a great deal, but it was an organic, personal process, not one in which I merely capitulated to someone who spoke authoritatively on what I should and should not believe.

Like you, for example.

Meant friendly. :)

To canonize her voluminous writings has been detrimental to the church's educated members,
Posted by: Elaine (not verified) | 26 October 2009 at 5:29

A common refrain in your writings.
What a burden being all knowing and having to deal with the rest of us mere mortals.

Maggie,

The SDA church can choose to believe and teach anything it wishes. However, it not secret that there are differences among its members on the place of EGW. That cannot be denied; nor can it be denied that since Adventism's inception many who doubted her prophetic ability either were thoroughly excoriated or chose to sever relationships with the church.

There has never been uniformity of belief in EGW as a prophet. Would you deny that? If so, why is the church and its theologians still debating her place in the church today? If everyone accepted that she is and will always be the prophetic voice for Adventism, there would be no need for continual conferences, would there?

Both you and I have come to similar conclusions, haven't we? Although derived from different perspectives. As you have said, you almost deified her at one time, while I never accepted the role that the church projected. That brings us to the same conclusions, doesn't it, although our journeys were far different.?

What have I written "telling people what they "should" believe about EGW?" I was of the opinion that each contributor here was free to express opinion that were never anything but her own, rather than inferring what others should believe.

I do not need Ellen White to:

1. Value the Sabbath and choose to observe it.
2. To believe the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.
3. To be an ardent Christian.

Joselito, believe it or not, there were wonderful Christian believers for nearly two thousand years before EGW was born. There remain beautiful Christians who have never been SDA and do not know EGW even today.

I find the idea off-putting that if one does not include EGW in their Christian life / belief, they will cease to be Christian [by becoming Unitarian].

Jesus Christ is our Savior. Let us not feel it necessary to cling to EGW for salvation. Not to say she cannot have a role in the life of an Adventist Christian, but that to say that this should be seen as optional rather than essential.

Helen

I'm aghast at the vitriol expressed here as on other topics. I do not believe it is necessary to be personally insulting when disagreeing. Ironically, it seems that the most insulting are those who cling ardently to traditionalism.

Did you notice how Alden Thompson described the meeting about EGW as a coming together of people who see EGW very differently? Somehow I don't feel that happens here. IMHO.

Helen (who appreciates when Elaine says and does not agree with what has been said regarding her here)

Elaine, you know I agree with you in substance, academically, and I hope you know by now, there was no "vitriol" in my last post.

It seems to me that your idea of a solution is for everybody who disagrees to just "get over it," just be more "sophisticated," to just "see the obvious." (My phrases.)

Of course you can state your opinions freely - I support that.

And I agree that inclusivity is a grand thing, if one can manage it.

As I remonstrated with Chuck Scriven, some people can't manage it, and we can't just plow them under as hopelessly regressive and hope to have anything but a train wreck.

If that's not your solution, what is your solution?

Really, I'm serious.

Maggs, I knew there was no vitriol in your post; that is not at all like you.

Like you, Tom and I, we can no longer accept the official SDA doctrines, but find that there is good in most all religions. People choose the one that they are most comfortable with. William James, in his seminal work "The Varieties of Religious Experience" sets for this premise which I agree with. For many people, Adventism appeals most to them (although for all those who are born into it, there is less choice and more habit).

No, total inclusivity would never be possible, but do you believe that Adventism could ever overcome its triumphalism and have a welcoming attitude sans all the fundamentals? Local congregations are able to achieve that, but they are probably an exception, like the one I attend.

just to throw in some humor the link below for the NoSequitur cartoon of the day seemed to go with the flow.

http://www.arcamax.com/nonsequitur/s-631105-306663

ellen

Let's get back to the point!

There was a conference of people who are collaborating in writing a academic tome on Ellen White with the express purpose of introducing this important figure from C19th American religious history to a wider audience!

These people were an international group of scholars from a variety of religious perspectives and academic disciplines! A very stimulating environment indeed I should think!

In this conference the significance of Ellen White in her historical context was assumed!!

Perhaps our comments and questions about the conference may yet be helpful to those who collaborated in this important project.

Too funny, Ellen! =)

Posted by: Elaine | 26 October 2009 at 3:21

No, total inclusivity would never be possible, but do you believe that Adventism could ever overcome its triumphalism and have a welcoming attitude sans all the fundamentals?

Local congregations are able to achieve that, but they are probably an exception, like the one I attend.

Well...maybe Adventist triumphalism is just one of the "Varieties of Religious Experience" that Wm. James speaks of? Obviously it is, right?

Maybe it's easier to be inclusive of more exotic varieties of religious experience than it is the homegrown kind?

An Adventism "sans all the fundamentals" is an imaginary construct that I have a hard time conjuring. Would there be any reason for it to exist?

You and I would say, sure - it's the family aspect that matters.

But Cliff and David and Michael would say it's the doctrine that matters, family schmamily.

So I say to you, my long-suffering friend who endures my pattern interrupts good-naturedly, if it's family that truly matters, then Cliff, David and Michael are our family, and what they believe matters to us because they are our family.

Have you ever tried to pull a family member's deeply held belief system out by the roots?

Warning! Do not try this at home!

But Peter wants us to get back to the point, because EGW is, at long last, getting her historical comeuppance, so let's put on our Sabbath best and give three cheers (or two...) to Mother.

Inclusivity cannot be one-sided, can it?

If all varieties of SDA beliefs can be considered family, what about those (Cliff?) who would limit membership to "my way or the higway"? IOW, if rejection is the attitude of the very conservatives, where does the concept of family arise? Tolerance is more often exhibited by those who accept inclusivity.

What's the mantra of family: when you go home, they take you in?

Inclusivity cannot be one-sided, can it?

Why-ever not?, sez Maggs.

Tolerance is more often exhibited by those who accept inclusivity.

My point exactly, Elaine. winkwink

What's the mantra of family: when you go home, they take you in?

My conservative SDA family always takes me in with open arms. No problem.

I may bug David and Michael at times, but they would give me the shirts off their Christian backs, I betcha. Probably Cliff would too.

What's the problem? God is love, right?

I was very encouraged to find this article today posted on the Spectrum Magazine website. (I have set up the name of "Alden Thompson" as a Google search.)

In 1976 and 1977, as a relatively new Adventist majoring in Accounting at Walla Walla College I took two classes from Dr. T.: Messages of the OT, and, Inspiration/Revelation. Little did I know back then what a major impact he and his writings would have on my understanding of scripture and inspired writers over the last three decades--an understanding which continues to evolve, or progress, over time.

Alden has recently published a new book entitled, Beyond common Ground: Why liberals and conservatives need each other. I am just starting to read the book now. (If his past works are any indication, I'm sure it will be another great read!)

I believe there is much greater diversity of belief and understanding of scripture within the Adventist Church than most members and non-members realize. Alden speaks to this to some extent in his previous book, entitled, escape from the flames: How Ellen White grew from fear to joy--and helped me do it too. See Chapter 2, "Which Side?" for some of this.

When I joined the Adventist Church as an 18-year-old who had just graduated from the local public high school everything was black and white regarding my understanding of scripture. (That seems to be the norm for most converts to Adventism.) Today, there is a LOT of gray. I have tons of questions now that just can't be answered with an absolute sense of certainty. But, that's OK. I'm willing to wait. Even in Heaven, I may have to wait for a time because it probably will take this dense brain of mine a few thousand years before I can understand the answers to some of my questions. ;-)

Even in Heaven, I don't believe I will learn everything there is to know in a day, or even a few thousand years! If anything, my faith has taught me to be patient. This lesson has not been an easy one. I wish now that I could have had some of this patience thirty-five years ago! Life would have been very different, I'm sure. Hopefully, life would have been much better, but there is no guarantee of that. We have to take each day as it comes and do our best with what we've got stored in our minds and hearts, depending upon the Spirit for the best guidance possible.

Learning to live "in the moment" has been a wonderful lesson for me. There are many people who I can thank for this, but especially EGW, through her many wonderful writings! I would not be the person I am today without her influence and without the influence of others who have also greatly benefitted from her publications.

(Please forgive me for my long-windedness. I hope this adds something worthwhile to the discussion.)

I hope the EGW conference proves to be especially fruitful. May it yield much valuable research on Ellen White. I believe that the more we can know about her life and work the better off the world will be--and the better off I will be, too!

John A.

I find the idea off-putting that if one does not include EGW in their Christian life / belief, they will cease to be Christian [by becoming Unitarian].
Posted by: Helen Dunn | 26 October 2009 at 7:45

It was my own spin on Thompson's account which he wisely left for readers to decide if there was anything significant they could find. Needless to say, there are far many more good Christians outside of Adventism, long before there was any Adventist and after Adventism became a formal Christian organization. But it was an extreme, exclusivist Adventism, of not all but some, that I had in mind. I was thinking of those who once knew Ellen White and have since completely rejected and excluded her as if there was nothing good she had contributed to our religious culture.

... like Elaine, i have found an Adventist church that is welcoming, inclusive and accepting - of people and opinions.
but those qualities create their own problems when more "fundamentalist" conservatives want to "fix" or "normalise" the way things are done, or what is shared.

...so we have the occasional push towards traditional positions, and traditional behaviour. Such attitudes would not be a disturbance if we remained a totally liberal community - but we are not. we are a broad church, and as such expect the storm, and ride it out.

... what has this to do with EGW? Although many have resolved their understanding of her role, accepted her limitations and and mistakes, others remain more absolutist. The debate will not end with this conference, or the next, because an inclusive church retains those who want to return to the early 20th century - their voice is not silenced by time,logic reason or faith. And after all, why should it be?

we do not all express our views with the eloquence and diplomacy of an Alden Thompson - there are the more abrasive George Knights among us. We are fascinated by the Cliff Goldsteins, and spellbound by the Des Fords.

For me - keep diversity, stop the purge! Time to grow up! Good luck with the Project book, and all wisdom to the editors!

>>> I believe that the more we can know about her life and work the better off the world will be--and the better off I will be, too!

I agree.

When will the White Estate allow everyone access to all the material they have?

Why won't they do it today?

/Bevin

Stop stroking the Ellen-White-for-dummies manuals of George Knight and Alden Thompson and you may, at some point, realize how much has been lost because of these two men.

Stick to your Bibles since the White Estate has clearly not held up the writings of Ellen White to the world in a faithful manner. The first and most grievous mistake was assuming it a noble endeavor to allow Sunday Evangelicals Barnhouse and Martin a free ticket into the secret vaults of the written archives of Ellen White in order to prove to them Ellen White was not "Arian."

Which one of you has received such treatment from the White Estate, or anyone with the authority over such an immense responsibility as this? And we are members in the church, they were non-members out to prove Adventism is a cult and they were allowed the keys to the vault and all the time they wanted.

This here is enough to cause every thoughtful SDA member to take their tithes elsewhere. Yet few will reflect prayerfully and thoughtfully of the admonition to "come out of her, my people."

How can we download the lectures? I have not seen them posted anywhere.

Thanks

George, This summer I was at Andrews - I was in the vaults - and had access to whatever was there.

Yes - there was a time when access was limited - but that is not the case today.

Times they are a-changing...