Thanks Trudy. As I'm four months preggers today, this whole question of how to raise spiritually aware kids without indoctrinating them or making them feel like we've oppressed them is very much on my mind lately! My husband and I are pretty clear about the big goals, but how that works out in the specifics seems like it could be tricky--like how do we keep Sabbath?

As Stephen and I have gotten older, we've had a similar journey to you--we no longer think of Sabbathkeeping as a legal requirement, and we no longer think of it in terms of traditional eschatology, but it has become a gift that we treasure. I know the challenge will be to convey that attitude to our kids (and I'm sure they'll be getting the "legal" view from other sources so we'll have to figure out how to talk about that). Like you said, it probably does boil down to hoping we haven't messed them up too badly!

I think the attitude with which all of this is done makes a big difference. I like your point on this; "It’s a big question mark for parents — what isn’t??! — and all we can do, I think, is to teach kids the things we think are important, try to do it with love and not harshness, and give them the critical thinking skills and the permission to seek and find their own truth as adults."

That leaving them room to find their own truth is very crucial--I feel like my parents managed to do that, and for that space I am profoundly thankful. I think it's why I haven't been bitter about what I "missed" by sitting out certain activities.

With two generations observed in my own family, I would do much differently next time, as my grandchildren have been raised to enjoy Sabbath, and not restrict normally good activities on that day.

The 35-year old grandchild was never raised as a "typical" SDA, attending public and state university and is a very spiritual, Christian, but not an SDA. Two of my children never attend church except for special Easter or Christmas programs; while one with an 8-year old regularly attends SS and church with both parents (father a non-SDA). In the afternoons, she may go snow or waterskiing with one of her parents; attend a play, birthday party, or something similar. This way, the Sabbath is a special day for enjoyment in which they all do the same good things that they would participate in any other day of the week. Way to go, and she should never have an antipathy toward Sabbath observance that most children learn at home.

Look around: how many children, after college, regularly are SDA observers? Less than 50%, I believe, according to the studies. We have innoculated our children against Adventism with our rigid and strict prohibitions on the 7th day. We have almost outdone the Jews with their multiple restrictions on that day. God help us all for this crime against our descendants!

Elaine

Other than seriously challenged dogma there is nothing to support a Seventh-day Sabbath. Rest yes, Worship yes, Fellowship yes, Praise yes, and great expectations yes. The rest is hussle and cash flow. Men and women of otherwise rational thinking have been caught in a great big bind. Employment, family estrangement top the list. The very issue that SDA evangelists challenge wavering prospects--Trust the Lord and me they urge! Yet faced with the reality of Scripture they turn a deaf ear and a stony heart. Once a student cam up to me and said about a patient under treatment: "Your plan didn't work". I relied, "Son you didn't follow the plan. You are on trial not me." The plan of Salvation is simple. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house." I have found my rest, my worship, my praise, my fellowship, and my expectations in the finished work of Jesus Christ and those who share with confidence that He alone is worthy. Tom

Trudy, I want to affirm you in setting some parameters for your family. You are not robbing from your kids. You are providing them with something richer and deeper! The Sabbath rest will continue on throughout eternity...the memory of a missed hockey game in time should fade or lose importance if explained and taught in the right manner. I played organized sports my entire life--I sometimes got fussed at by coaches, or teammates for not playing on Saturdays. Parents complained on occasion b/c they did not think it was fair that I could miss Friday night practice and still start the next game. One incident stands out in my mind--when I was 12 years old I was playing in Official Little League--and my coach right in front of my Dad said, "Chad if you play in the game on Saturday you will make the all star team." This was my dream, every year I watched the Little League World Series on TV. I looked at my Dad, and he just shook his head. At the time as a 12 year old I didn't have great understanding of the eternal. I wanted the temporal and the secular--but my parents helped to show me the value of the eternal. And when I didn't understand (like as a 12 year old little leaguer) they protected me from placing the temporal over the eternal, knowing one day as I walked with Jesus I would value the eternal so much more than a chance to wear a patch that said, "official little league all star." You are not robbing them you are teaching them to value Jesus and what is important to Him, which is the eternal--more than what is important to us, which is temporal!
Blessings.

Chad

My kids were approx 17/15/13 when I finally decided to resign from the SDA church.

We had begun to relax the Sabbath and other SDA restrictions on activities some years earlier - specifically
(a) we allowed them to go to the school dances,
(b) we allowed them to participate in school drama productions regardless of when they were on,
(c) we never were foolish enough to ban movies or cardplaying, regardless of what our baptismal certificates said

I wish we had dropped the restrictions on school dances earlier. I am glad we never got in the way of the drama.

I still resent the lost weekends, where being too involved in church activities lost us the time needed for the many family outdoor activities that would have been so so so much better for us than listening to some ignorant fanatic preach the nonsense that (s)he imagined God had given him to say from the pulpit, and listening to other ignorant well-meaning non-thinkers repeat their same non-ideas after not studying their weekly SS lesson

I also resent the $100,000 I gave the SDA church over the years, and which was largely squandered.

Fortunately we got the kids out before the SDA church ruined their spiritual lives.

/Bevin

I don't have kids yet, but I am already wondering how to juggle this very important part of parenting. Just the fact that you ask these questions, Trudy, probably means that you are teaching your kids about how and why Sabbathkeeping is important to you in a spirit of love and not legalism, which is probably why some people end up being bitter and feeling that so much was stolen from them. I bet in the hurried world we live in, a lot of kids would love to have their parents set aside a whole day in which the family essentially just spends time together and thinks/talks about important matters like who God is and how should I live?

Thanks Trudy for your comments. My husband and I went through quite of bit of angst over this very issue and we are still working out the details.

I think it is much easier to keep Sabbath traditionally with kids if you follow one of two paths. Either they are very closely plugged in to an SDA support system with friends who also keep Sabbath like they do, or you teach them that their salvation depends on it and so no sacrifice is too great. Keeping Sabbath traditionally with kids who are asked to do something their peers are not requires a very very good reason to make that sacrifice. Giving up the Friday night football game to have a "day of rest" simply doesn't cut it with most kids unless they think the consequences are great.

I was raised completely immersed in the SDA culture and my peer group was only SDA until I went to graduate school. Keeping Sabbath was a drag sometimes but I rarely felt seriously deprived, mostly because my group of reference was doing the same thing.

After having children we attempted to raise them SDA but finally decided it wasn't going to work - we are just too liberal in our views. We attend a Sunday church but we still try to keep a Saturday Sabbath. We have decided though that in order for it to be a blessing to our children as well as to us, we would have to keep it pretty untraditionally. My husband and I benefit from a traditional Sabbath but the kids really hate it. They have no SDA friends (this was true even when we were attending SDA church for years) and thus have no peer reference. So we are working our way into some very new territory but so far it's going pretty well.

"probably why some people end up being bitter and feeling that so much was stolen from them"

The above described my experience as an SDA parent. My experience as an SDA child is MUCH worse.

In 1960-1975 in New Zealand
(a) Sabbath began and ended on the minute
(b) No TV, radio, normal toys, secular books, non-SDA visitors, non-Bible-games, running around, swimming
(c) When we walked across town to go to church, it was a sin to look in the shop windows
(d) It was a sin to belong to a union
(e) It was a sin to dance
(f) It was a sin to go to the movies
(g) It was evil, but most SDA did it, to eat meat
(h) It was a sin to drink tea, coffee, or CocaCola
(i) It was a sin to join the military
(j) It was a sin to go to a non-SDA church, or to think that non-SDA christian's were anything other than a trap of the devil. Certainly you would never go to a Christian concert.
(k) It was a sin to go to a non-SDA university

When I look over the list now, I realize that most SDA AT THE TIME broke these rules, and that my parents were significantly stricter than average.

The SDA church has never apologized for setting these standards, and not living up to them. It never formally lowered them. It just pretends that such things never happened or were some local abberation - leaving in its wake millions of damaged lives.

Of course all the above were justified by ample quotations from EGW writings. The same writings the SDA church still venerates, but no longer enforce adherence to.

/Bevin

Wow, Bevin, that's a lot of sins! That sort of upbringing would have left me very bitter. I'm quite sure I'd have nothing to do with the church now. Although I was raised in a conservative, Adventist community, my parents definitely were able to allow for flexibility and questions. I was never under the assumption that just because an authority figure said something that I had to unquestioningly obey it. I remember that one of our favorite Sabbath afternoon activities was to go to a Mexican restaurant that my parents had patronized for years and then go to the beach. I was raised at a boarding school, which is very much a fishbowl sort of place, so the chance to get away just as a family was such a reprieve for my parents. I do remember that my parents took a lot of flak for this though--that was really not something other families from our church did.

One time the pastor, as a way to get to my parents, asked my younger sister and me if we were aware that our family was breaking the Sabbath because we bought food at a restaurant. My sister (now a math teacher) was always very logical. She asked the pastor if he and his family didn't buy food when they went to the school cafeteria. The pastor explained that they didn't pay, they just signed a list and were billed later. My sister answered promptly. "Oh, well we just pay with a credit card and my mom gets the bill later!" As a 7-yr-old, she had succinctly and cleverly unmasked why legalism doesn't work!

This very subject crossed my mind yesterday. Funny to see it discussed here. I was looking at it in terms of talents not realized. In other words, how many have given up on a dream they had for themselves in response to their God given talents because they felt they could not realize that dream and keep the Sabbath? I believe there are quite a few, at least I am certain of it, in my church. How do I know? By the number of members in the health care industry in my church. Many, I believe, have used these healthcare professions as a way of avoiding the hassle of confronting the issue of getting the Sabbath off in the work place. (As most long time Adventist know, if you are in the healthcare profession, it's supposed to be okay for you to work on the Sabbath.) To me this is kind of sad and counter productive to living the more abundant life.

Al

Bevin,
PLease refer me to the part in the bible about looking in shop windows on the Sabbath or refer me to the EGW quote.
Explain to me what belonging to a union or dancing has to do with Sabbath observance or anything else in your list.

I believe you come closest to making sense when you say, "When I look over the list now, I realize that most SDA AT THE TIME broke these rules, and that my parents were significantly stricter than average." and then you completely miss the mark in the next paragraph when you say, "The SDA church has never apologized for setting these standards, and not living up to them. It never formally lowered them. It just pretends that such things never happened or were some local abberation - leaving in its wake millions of damaged lives."

You assume Adventism in general was just like your parents, even though on some level you know different and said so.

This happens more than one would suspect. Even Daneen gives that slant in her reply.

reply by Daneen

"Wow, Bevin, that's a lot of sins! That sort of upbringing would have left me very bitter. I'm quite sure I'd have nothing to do with the church now."

Why nothing to do with the church instead of nothing to do with the parents? Its almost Cliché to hear people say for example, So and So in the church did this to me so the church is bad. Isnt it painfully simplistic logic to attribute fault to an entire church for the actions of a person, and at the same time know and believe that "the church" is FILLED with flawed people?

I have just returned from visiting my 47 year old daughter who is STILL GRIEVING the loss of her beloved childhood sport of calisthenics because she was not allowed to go on Friday nights or compete then. She is still angry with me for imposing my behavioural demands on her. She is still repulsed by anything to do with church where she 'heard' that she was rejected by God. She felt rejected by her family if she did not attend and rejected by God if she did. She is a wise person and on her own authentic journey. She has been damaged by my previous religion. It is very, very sad and I would NEVER take away her life like that again. I wish someone had recorded this for me when I was a new parent.

Being 72 and having white hair doesn't really qualify me as an expert, but from this vantage point I can certainly see things I would have done differently.

I think the most important thing parents can do is to figure out why they believe what they do, and then discuss these reasons with their children (assuming they are old enough to reason). I agree that having an Adventist peer group makes it easier, but perhaps critical thinking is better developed in a situation like Trudy's.

And frankly, all children are different. Some seem to automatically understand and choose the "right," while others are always pushing the boundaries. Probably the most difficult task for parents is being able to treat each child as an individual - but that takes both knowledge and confidence.

It seems to me that by the time children are older teenagers, if they are especially resistant to restraints, after a thorough discussion of your reasons for your beliefs and the natural consequences of their choices, they should be given a carefully monitored opportunity to make their own decisions.

As a minister's wife, I have to say that being in a leadership position creates special stresses. There is always the temptation to worry, "What will people think?" I'm happy that I have finally reached the stage where that question no longer bothers me - one of the better things about becoming "chronologically gifted!"

And finally, we have to be willing to forgive ourselves if we make mistakes, or if our children make mistakes in spite of our best efforts. We live in a broken world and God is the only one who can read our hearts.

Al, Al, Al...

"Many, I believe, have used these healthcare professions as a way of avoiding the hassle of confronting the issue of getting the Sabbath off in the work place."

There are three officially sanctioned professions within the SDA community that have a certain, well, flexibility with activities on the Sabbath. These are all professions that deal either directly or indirectly with Religion, Healthcare, and Education. Of course, it is relevant though obvious to note that these must be part of Adventist institutions for said rule extensions to apply.

The term "avoiding" seems a bit pejorative in the context of your comments. These rule interpretations were clearly understood by all true Adventists and were factored in to all relevant career decisions early on. This allows for increased income opportunities, paths for career advancement, and support of social networking ie. bonding activities within the SDA community. If there are those who were unaware of or did not fully appreciate these rules, then either they obviously did not research this sufficiently or maybe were not "fully" Adventist and as such, deserve disqualification.

Of course, church membership is STILL allowed... maybe not "completely" endorsed by the spiritual leaders in the community but is still freely available. There is an exception though, which is if there is substantial proof that one has been "blessed" in life (financially, publically, etc.,) with the obvious correlation that the profession has been divinely endorsed, then some rule flexibility can come through that channel as well, so all is not lost. But, we can't all be native first class citizens and it is our duty to recognize such is our lot in life and to be supportive of those who are. And even if our profession is not in the Big Three, there is still an opportunity for us to be adopted into full citizenry through proof of divine intervention.

While it may not be the best system, it's what we have, just have to work within it and be accepting.

Happy Sabbath.

Jesse

One bible study member brought up a simple perspective I appreciated, that regardless of the church tradition- there are ministers and doctors who absolutely break the sabbath when they work, and other ministers and doctors that do not-regardless of the intensity of their work on the Sabbath. It is not a matter so much of money or activity itself, but of meaning and purpose, and the spiritual journey of the soul. Therefore, EVERYONE in the whole church is both responsible and free to Work on the Sabbath- constrained or propelled by the Holy Spirit, holiness is not in the minutes of the day, or any particular activity, but in God and people.

I think practicing, exemplifying the idea of sacrifice for a higher value is more meaningful for child upbringing in this self-indulgent world, than the specific prohibition of any particular activity on the Sabbath. Sabbath was meant to be a channel for passing on such eternal principles as self-renouncing love, not grudging legalism. That principle should enrich the meaning and prioritization of their lives, even if their application of it differs from our own when they are mature, as it rightly should. If the banning of any activity on the Sabbath does not stem from love of something/someone more preciously meaningful- the parent is breaking the Sabbath and teaching the child to do the same in the most perverse manner.

Pharisees tried to kill God in the name of God. The same often happens now when SDAs kill the Sabbath in the name of Sabbath.

1960's - PRESENT
ANYWHERE EAST OF THE MISSISSIPPI, NORTH AMERICA

(a) Sabbath began and ended on the minute
(b) No TV, radio, normal toys, secular books, non-SDA visitors, non-Bible-games, running around, swimming
(c) When we walked across town to go to church, it was a sin to look in the shop windows
(d) It was a sin to belong to a union
(e) It was a sin to dance
(f) It was a sin to go to the movies
(g) It was evil, but most SDA did it, to eat meat
(h) It was a sin to drink tea, coffee, or CocaCola
(i) It was a sin to join the military
(j) It was a sin to go to a non-SDA church, or to think that non-SDA christian's were anything other than a trap of the devil. Certainly you would never go to a Christian concert.
(k) It was a sin to go to a non-SDA university

That is exactly the Sabbath observance I was introduced to at the age of 16 in Long Island, NY; and has been my experience over these many years as I have lived and worked within Adventism, up and down the eastern coast of the US and Canada. Oh to have been raised in California! Do you guys (on the west coast) know that California (in particular) is a buzz word for "do what ever you like and it's ok) within the Adventist communities in MANY (most) places on east coast? I don't know how they resolve using electricity that's produced and looked over by somebody working on the Sabbath; or what they would do if police assistance was required, but hey, those are hypotheticals, right?

This very day, those same prohibitions are being taught in the SDA church I'm supposed to be attending. I don't really know what percent of members are actually doing all that, but that is what the kids are being taught about the Sabbath. So you have to wonder why these same conservatives are not also teaching not to COVET the cars on the church parking lots and the Sabbath finery of other members if we are to be "these are they that keep the commandments of God". Is keeping the jot and tittle of the fourth more important than the jots and tittles of the other nine?

Having had the above list as my intro to Adventism, I now have the opposite dilemma. I have come to know that my salvation does not depend on my attempts at keeping the Sabbath or the rest of the nine; and while I was taught to be meticulous about those sundowns, yet "there remained a Sabbath rest for the people of God" which I have since found; but what to do about the Sabbath which has become part of who I am.

Never has the Sabbath been a hardship, nor did I resent it - maybe because I wasn't brought up within its parameters, but chose to keep it at 16. I still feel the night envelope me on Friday nights and a peace that separates me from the duties of the every day work week. But, if I need an aspirin I don't have, I will go out an buy one. (Maybe a bottle of milk as well. Or should it be soyamilk). Basically I don't plan to do "un-Sabbathy" things on Sabbath, but if the need arises I don't obsess over the issue.

I asked an SDA pastor what his congregation did about Sabbaths up in Yellowknife, (northern Canada); the answer - we kept it from 6:00PM to 6:00PM, which begs the question; if the Sabbath hours are sacred what in the world do these people do, up above the Arctic circle? I understand Ellen White was asked a similar question about Norway and her answer had been something like "people shouldn't live in places like that". I haven't been able to find that quote so I can't swear to it, but it does bring up an interesting dilemma and possibly proves that the Sabbath was intended for one specific people in one specific locale.

Sirje

Crossing the International Date Line creates problems also.

I recall a close personal friend telling the story that when the family was flying across the Pacific, the plane was showing the movie "The Sound of Music" but it was the Sabbath so the parents tried to prevent the children from watching. All at once the pilot announces they had crossed the international Date Line it is now Sunday. Set your watchs if you have a calander. The parents then said: "Go ahead and wtach the movie."

Of Course, While I was at E.M.C. that movie would have been off limits 24/7 Time does change things doesn't it? As does location it seems.

I recall my math teacher, C. Woods, at E.M.C. and later at P.U.C. being very troubled over the problem of the Sabbath and the International Date Line. He resolved it but saying, I don't intend to travel that far so it will remain a problem for someone else to solve. Tom

Tom,
...then there's the situation on one of the Pacific islands where the only SDA church is on the other side of the international dateline on a neighboring island and they have to attend Sabbath cervices on Sunday - now that's a bummer!

Trudy:

I want to commend you and your husband for passing on your spiritual disciplines to your children. You are teaching them the surpassing value of Christ. I also want to commend you for posting your story a public forum where you knew your parenting would receive criticism. Thanks for your humble witness.

One question: Maybe I missed it, but what do you do with your kids on Sabbath? Now that I'm about to be a parent, I'm collecting ideas.

Tom,
Traditional SDAs would wonder why people would be traveling on the Sabbath to begin with. They're a step ahead of you.
I think if people have no intention of keeping God's commandments (any one), then they should not pretend that they wish they could.
God did not invent the International Dateline.
It is interesting to see the acrobatics as Christians duck and weave to avoid the fourth Commandment (only). If that ain't suspicious...

Anonymous
Thanks.
I'll keep that in mind. To be fair, I may have gotten the story backwards, because the friends were deeply religious Sabbath keepers. Maybe they started watching and had to stop because of the time change. At least their behavior changed after crossing an immaginary line.
I like to be accurate in keeping time, in making change, and in relating stories. In this case, I wasn't there. I just remember the irony of date line crossings. Tom

Every Adventist, young or old, has to think about the "Sabbath." Can't avoid it! I have tried to settle such questions (and there are many more)by asking myself, "Am I 'keeping' the Sabbath to impress God or to honor Him?" "Am I paying tithe to impress God or to honor Him?" "Am I taking out the garbage (and a hundred other household duties) to impress my wife or to honor her?" I remember, even before I was baptized, when my baseball team had won the city championship and the state playoff in Boston was on the next Saturday. Wow! I went to our little brown church in Springfield, MA and never looked back. It has made all the difference. Cheers, Herb

Bevin I too recognize quite a bit on your list and I don't really consider my parents to be extremely strict SDAs either. The blanket rule was absolutely nothing secular, including associating with non-SDAs. I remember wanting to play ping-pong with my best friend so we ended up playing Bible ping-pong where we'd name a Bible character every time we hit the ball. Keeping score was very iffy.

So I just wanted to say that your experience was hardly unusual as you probably already know. Your parents may have enforced the rules in a way that made it even more burdensome, I don't know, but most of the rules themselves many of us experienced too.

I was a pretty talented swimmer but never could develop it because of Sabbath rules. I remember coaches just shaking their heads. I was a deeply spiritual kid though and just never questioned it. I was pretty compliant too - don't know what happened there :)

I think Carol is right that different children are going to respond very differently. One of those joys of parenting is discovering that you have very finate boundaries to work within for each child. Some children take to spiritual issues like a duck to water and others, well, don't. Sabbath is much easier to deal with for those children who intuitively grasp what it can be about. It can be a major stumbling block for those who don't.

As a non-SDA student, at an Adventist college in the 70's, I found myself baffled by my Adventist classmates who, in fulfillment of a class assignment, visited a local museum on Sabbath, even though the professor specifically told us he did not want us to do so. My non-SDA friends and I went on Friday afternoon, in deference to the religious observance of the college we were attending and out of respect for our professor's wishes. I was also confused by the conversations I heard at lunch on Sabbath in the school cafeteria, which seemed quite worldly and not at all religious; and I could never understand why it was OK for visitors to buy dinner at the cafeteria, but the dorm students were not allowed to go out to eat on Sabbath, even with their parents.

In spite of these (and other) mystifying aspects of Adventism, I eventually joined the church, because I found myself, for the most part, in agreement with the major tenets of the church. (Those that didn't quite ring true to me, I simply ignored!) I married and raised a child within the generally supportive--albeit imperfect--environment of the church and I believe that my husband and I were rather successful. After 17 years of Adventist education, my twentysomething daughter told me that, "the coolest thing she learned in college was that you didn't have to 'live in a box' to be an Adventist." To me, this says that she realizes that membership in the church still allows for personal flexibility, as we interpret the doctrines of the church and more importantly, the Gospel.

I believe that consistency is a key element in successful child-raising. And when it came to discussing the various aspects of the SDA lifestyle (like Sabbathkeeping, abstaining from eating unclean meats, etc.), I always felt it was essential to have "reasonable" explanations (a relative term, I know) for my choices and to impart those to my child. Sometimes, my reasonable explanation was based on sound theology, other times, it was based on more personal preferences; but I tried hard to steer away from turning issues that could be termed "cultural Adventism" into issues that affected our salvation (e.g., although I choose not to pierce my ears, I do not believe that my friend has jeopardized her salvation by doing so).

Our daughter did spend a period of time in a local Christian school and there were events on Sabbath which she did not attend, primarily because those were secular activities which we did not engage in on Sabbath--not because it was "sin" to do so, but because "that's not what our family did on Friday night/Saturday." Sabbath was a day which we spent at church and with family, a time we set aside to rest from the activities of the week, a gift of time from God. At one point, we let her decide whether or not to attend a banquet, which would begin before sundown on a Saturday night. When she decided to attend, I wasn't wholly comfortable with her decision, but we wanted her to have the freedom to decide on her own and to learn whatever lessons might come from that decision.

In looking back, I don't believe our daughter felt "robbed," overall, by our decisions not to do certain things on Sabbath; but I would hope that the context in which it was explained to her salved whatever disappointed feelings she may have had. And really, every choice to do something means that you have chosen NOT to do something else--it's always a "trade-off." I firmly believe that in most relationships, it's the overall pattern of behavior that determines the outcome, not the occasional mistakes or missteps. Perhaps we, as parents, didn't always use perfect reasoning in our decision-making, but we always tried to make our decisions from the standpoint of a relationship with God, rather than a judgmental, legalistic standpoint. We gave her the best we had to offer, in terms of religious training: a church whose members were not perfect and might have even been legalistic, at times; but where, nevertheless, she was loved, supported, and taught of God's love and salvation. We plant seeds in our children; how they germinate and bear fruit is beyond our control. Still, our job is to plant the seeds.

Jeanmere,
My experience sounds a lot like yours. We raised two daughters in somewhat similar way. They are adults now, one is a pastor's wife and the other has nothing to do with the church, but both are nostalgic about their youth and especially Friday nights when the house was clean and the smell of food wafted out of the kitchen. We had the good fortune to live in places where Sabbaths were spent out of doors on numerous hikes, vespers on the shores of Lake Superior and a nurturing church family. They even allowed cross country ski excursions into the woods on Sabbath! But the rule was still, "wade with your feet but no swimming".

When the younger became a teenager we, too, reluctantly allowed her to attend a dance on Friday which extended into the Sabbath. She went just once and decided herself that she didn't want to do that again. We also gave her the option of attending a public high school, which she did. (By the way, she's the pastor's wife.)

I think the younger children are just happy to be able to spend quality time with their folks on Sabbath, but when in their teens, the issues get dicier.

I also had a similar experience with what I observed regarding Sabbath observance. I became an SDA in high school and had to make some tough decisions about the Sabbath (played first chair in the school band.) When I went to and SDA college I thought I had gone to heaven - at first. No decisions to make about the Sabbath, or anything else, as it turned out. People didn't act any different on Sabbath than on any other day, (which might be good or not, depends), but I did find it amusing that no one would play games like chess or Rook, or whatever, but it was perfectly all right to play "Bible games" and card games with butterflies and birds to match. It seemed to me the issue wasn't what the game was about, but playing a game itself.

All this brings back some good memories and so, I'm still a cultural Adventist, which some in Silver Springs think means that I should leave the church. I need to figure that one out.

Sirje

If you find a pastor who enters the pulpit with a Scripture and prayer and then proceeds to explain what the Scripture means to him, and other scholars and then says, I hope you agree, If you don't, I still respect and love you, and I know God does also. Then gives a benediction and a blessing--attend that church no matter the day, or time. Tom

I remember missing things while my sister and I were growing up. Not being able to take dance classes [because 'we don't dance' - except we do]...not being able to go to movies [but renting them and watching them 8-12 months later]. After living in Hawaii, the 'wade but don't swim' [on Sabbath] directive was burned into my psyche.

As my sister and I grew up, we challenged some things...played hooky a couple of times...but overall, we really enjoy the Sabbath. The relief from worldly worries is something I look forward to as soon as Monday begins to loom. So, no, I don't think we were robbed [conservative as we were raised]. There are things we do and don't do on Sabbath and it helps maintain the enjoyment of the experience.

jen*

"I know far too many people who have been scarred by a fundamentalist or conservative religious upbringing, people who were made to carry a huge burden of guilt for trivial “sins”; people who have struggled to emerge from a worldview that simply didn’t fit them; people who are angry about having been baptized as infants into a faith they have never accepted as their own."

I was brought up in what probably now would be called a conservative religious upbringing. If we had loving parents how can we honestly say we have ben scarred when they did what they considered best? I find no scars. Isn't that allegation more of a copout?

I recall a popular SDA preacher,Morris Venden, saying that no matter how strict the parents, the most important factor is knowing they are loved. In other words the damage is from unloving parents.

"Every Adventist, young or old, has to think about the "Sabbath."

There's a real danger in thinking, and studying the Bible for honest answers to questions about the Sabbath, particularly its observance.

Which of observances given to the Israelites at the same time do SDAs observe today? Which are now considered obsolete or totally impractical and which have even been added since the initial rules were given? Do we light a fire (necessary for heating, driving a car, etc.)? Have we added a multitude of prohibitions? Surely, we have both added and eliminated some. How were the choices made? Hopefully, we all take showers Sabbath morning, and some are unable to take them before sundown. That was surely not a prohibition when the Israelites were camped at Sinai, as daily bathing was never done by anyone until the mid to late 20th century; nor did the Israelites wear shoes that ever needed shining--another prohibition of early Adventism--not from the Bible.

Our bright young people, when studying the Bible for clues as to why, how, and when the Sabbath should be observed have, like many of us older folks, concluded that there was never a Sabbath given for Christians; there were never biblical restrictions on proper observance; and resorting to the rules given for the Israelites are so time-conditioned as to be virtually impossible--as well as those SDAs added during the EGW period where she spelled out most, if not all of the rules for Sabbath-keeping.

Young people have a fine-tuned system built in for detecting hypocrisy and there is abundant evidence for them to see. While older people may enjoy the rest of a special day, young and active, restless young children find it a real "drag" and decide that is not how they wish to live when they are able to make their own choices. One need only to look at the retention figures of SDAs to realize that more than 50% of the children of SDA parents are no longer practicing Adventists. We have made several generations thoroughly innoculated againt Adventism, just as many Catholics once baptized in infancy are always Catholic, but never darken the church doors. If what we have been doing is so good and successful, where are the confirming results?

Again, I applaud and am very happy with the way the parents of my young grandchild have chosen to enjoy the Sabbath and she also enjoys it because there are no good activities of any day of the week that cannot be done on Sabbath. If it's good one day of the week, it's good on all of them.

"Of course all the above were justified by ample quotations from EGW writings."

Only by ripping them out of context and twisting the words around. It is indeed unfortunate how some people twist things around to justify how they do things. It certainly isn't anything Ellen white would have approved of:

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what 'Sister White Said' —'Sister White said this,' and 'Sister White said that,' and 'Sister White said the other thing'. But say, 'Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.'" Spalding and Magan Collection

As a PK I can sympathise with many of the austere stories, we all know about them. Most of us have repented!

But I also recall hours of Sabbath fun. Roaming the hills, searching for wild fruit and wild life. Digging up ant-heaps, catching snakes. Finding mountain pools and a quick dip, great social occassions, debates, singing and more. (Oh yes, there was dating time!)

Sabbath must be the best day for sure.

Helping our kids choose between the good and the best is difficult - no question.

Whilst reflecting on the perils of too many boundaries, we also need to reckon on the consequences for the millions who have none.

Today's headlines (in London) lament 5 youngsters killed in knife crime, a growing trend. Town centres becoming no go areas because of marauding youth, drug and alcohol crazed. Teen age pregnancies at unprecedented proportions.

I wonder what questions they will ask of their parents?

One can always lighten up, but its very hard to tighten up.

Love them anyway.

There is no difference between Christians and non-believers in the divorce rate. I doubt there's a difference in many of the other contemporary problems in our society. THe loss of virginity is only delayed by those religious teens who sign abstinence pledges (mutual masturbation allows one to claim virginity). Religion, while a benefit to many, can also be a destructive one if it becomes very dogmatic.

Note the ineffectiveness of Roman Catholics in attending regular mass, practicing birth control and neglect of most of the dogmatism espoused by the church. Humans will always act in their best interests when it becomes expedient to do so: Note the dispensation given to SDA health, ministerial and similar workers regarding Sabbath observance.

A story: shortly after my wife and I got married, we had my mother over for a Sabbath supper. My wife decided to boil a big pot of corn on the cob.

After the meal, and at sundown, my Mother asked if she could speak with me as she went to gas up for her trip home. She expressed a concern for my wife breaking the Sabbath. When I asked how, she quoted this scripture:

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

I was 22 and had lived most of those years in the same household as my Mother. How could I have missed this rule she followed all those years. It was ok to warm something up, but not to boil something on Sabbath. What a legacy to leave to the next generation that have microwaves and no longer have to gather sticks and get dirty cooking the meal.

The principle is one of spending your time contemplating God on the Sabbath, reducing time cooking, not to not cook, as I understand it.

Sorry, that last post was from me "Douglas".

Another anecdote:

My Mother's sister, my aunt, was on a trip with us that included a Sabbath. We were travelling on Sabbath to a arboretum. On the way back, several of us travelled in my aunt's car.

She asked if any of us wanted ice cream. We all froze, saying nothing, and she must of thought us crazy or maybe she was testing us SDA children. At any rate, I think the message got across that we didn't buy ice cream on Saturday.

Today, I feel robbed of that ice cream cone ;-).

"my Mother asked if she could speak with me as she went to gas up for her trip home."

That demonstrates the twisted thinking: it's sinful to boil water but perfectly alright to get gas for the car. I presume it had to be bought somewhere.

Oh, Elaine, it was after sundown when she gassed up!!!

I can relate to each comment. As a family life educator and parent of 3 adult children, I remember that challenges my husband and I faced as we raised our children through the teen years. They all attended church school, but we decided that they needed to know how to relate to be less insulated before leaving home for college and sent them to public schools during the high school years....There were lots of questions! We often discussed what "...the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath..." really meant.

It is my belief that "the questions" (we should be thankful they're asking!) help us understand why we make the decisions that guide us as Adventists. I am a PK and knew that I was being forced, by our teens, to rethink expected behaviors I assumed were necessary for salvation. I discovered that there is more involved in this thing of bonding with Jesus and His teachings than following the traditions of the church.

We decided to hold back (we agreed with "It's easier to lighten up than tighten up!") on allowing some activities, (i.e., dances, Sabbath parties and sports, pierced ears, etc.) until they were in their late adolescence. We admitted that some things were church tradition and showed where others were biblically-based. We tried to model what we believed and part of our value system. We acknowledged that going to the theatre was not a sin; but that they needed to choose carefully what goes into their heads--no matter the source. This was not without lots of discussion and some angst, though.

It is an imperfect effort for us, raising children in a world that doesn't always support us. Our children are good people, in spite of us. They are spiritual and love the Lord. They question appropriately, are raising their children while setting clear spiritual parameters in a loving way. They are making some choices differently then we, but giving their children strong spiritual principles.

Our job is to do our best, let the Holy Spirit work with us and our children, love our children and be Christ-like while giving direction, let go when as they are ready to be more independent. Our children must find their own paths. We are only to show them the way.

Thank's for those who commented that my list was similar to their list.

I note with sorry the other's who tried to blame my parents.

That is the history of SDA'ism - The SDA Church is always right. Someone else is always to blame for anything which is obviously broken.

/Bevin

Thanks for the enlightening comments. We do come from diverse places.

Sometimes we forget that Sabbath is in the context of working six days. I'm thankful my parents recognized that children don't work six days! They made Sabbath a delight. When my aged mother could no longer work one day much less six, Sabbath with her became much different than it was in earlier years.

In my older age, I've come to appreciate different types of Sabbaths: a Genesis sabbath, two Exodus sabbaths, and seven New Testament sabbaths.

Genesis: God stopped working--I can, too! As I claim Him as Father, I use Him as Model. What a relief from thinking of what work needs done and from doing work that is drudgery for me.

Exodus: I and everyone dependent on me gets to stop "doing" work for a day! At the least, those who stop working for me can spend the day with their family--a pleasure for anyone who feels enslaved by work.

New Testament: Based on Model Sabbaths, each week varies, each Sabbath is made for the humans with whom I associate, and each offers a day in doing good. I participate in church as long as it is a mindful community. I accept dinner invitations with the example of participating in stimulating conversations. I go out in Nature. I rescue people and creatures as needed. I contribute to healing of body, mind, and spirit. Sometimes Sabbath offers more adventures than I had anticipated, but they provide variety. I am grateful. They're each a wonderful day.

I feel blessed in having Sabbath.

Serving God involves sacrifice, and some people may consider this a form of robbery. But when we appreciate the gospel of free grace, making sacrifices for the Jesus Who loves us so much is not hard. We find our gospel-centered,evangelical type of Adventism a very liberating experience. Yes, Trudy, we have also brought up our son up to respect the Sabbath, and we do not attend sporting events on that day. But we try
to make the Sabbath joyful and happy - a sign of Christ's finished work on the cross and the rest and grace that He offers us. And you know what - our 15 year old son actually enjoys the Sabbath; he doesn't complain about it at all. As a matter of fact, Sabbath-keeping is really fun when it is centered on the gospel.

Thanks for the comments everyone -- very interesting responses. My own experience of Sabbathkeeping as a child was probably traditional but never harsh -- the worst it ever was, was a little boring as my parents liked to nap on Sabbath afternoons! We do try to make Sabbath fun and enjoyable for our kids at the same time as setting boundaries to try to distinguish it from "ordinary" days -- our theme is always that Sabbath is a special gift and we do special things on that day. So far our children seem to appreciate it much more than they resent it (particularly because we place so much emphasis on being together as a family, not having any committments other than Sabbath School and church that would make it a "busy" day), but who knows what they will think when older. I do think that giving kids a spiritual foundation does involve including some spiritual disciplines -- while I hope they will grow up to believe Sabbathkeeping, and following the Lord in general , is a delight, I don't think that necessarily means that everything has to be easy and fun -- it's OK to learn to say No to things as well, and that's part of every spiritual tradition that I know of.

It's admirable that parents have tried to make one day so different so that children might learn in adulthood to appreciate it. However, the statistics prove differently: The majority, or at least 50% of 2nd generation children raised in SDA homes and schools no longer attend church or practice the beliefs they were taught.

Isn't that the way to test hypotheses? The results are less than expected, and even worse than hoped for.

How many SDA parents whose children are now in their mid 20s or more (finished with their education and gainfully employed) continue to attend church regularly and practice Sabbath observance?

Elaine, I would likely be considered a part of that 50% (and I definitely was for several years), and yet Sabbath is one spiritual practice, a gift, that I still do practice. Even when I wasn't attending church at all, this was something I treasured as a sanctuary in time in the midst of an otherwise very busy week. Now, I've never been dogmatic about it, but it has still always been something I treasured, and when I chose not to keep it, I missed it (didn't feel guilty, just felt like I'd missed out).

Daneen,

The idea of a day for contemplation (although rest was the only requirement given in the commandment), is commendable. However, that it must be done on a specific day has no basis in the Christian's life according to the NT. Any day is sufficient. No day is to be set apart. If one chooses it to be either the first, third, or seventh, that should be a personal choice, not one required.

The 50% of Children that have fallen away from keeping the Sabbath may not be all attributable to however the Sabbath was taught by their parents. They could have other influences that affected their path such as parents or family that always run down the church. Even a child checking out spectrum would run into alot of that.

Michael

If more time were devoted to "running up Salvation through Christ alone", rather than defending a human institution we would find more young people in church as frail and faulty as it is. Tom

It is interesting that even the SDA who are defending the intense keeping of the Sabbath are not defending it based on the traditional SDA doctrinal reason for doing so!

Traditionally it was kept as a sign of loyalty to God - indeed it has been argued that it is the only commandment that doesn't have an obvious reason, and hence keeping it is a special sign/witness of the remnant.

Now people are arguing that it is simply pleasant to keep the Sabbath.

What happened to the idea that the Sabbath is what distinquishes God's people from the fallen church and the rest of Satan's conquests?

/Bevin

The time of the Sabbath is surely arbitrary. When actions that are good and honorable on every other day except that one, it becomes a very arbitrary and illogical choice. Nothing in nature differentiates between days and good is always good, not suddenly evil or wrong because of a specific day, unknown from nature.

When Paul speaks of Gentiles who do not have the Law but instinctively do the things of the Law, God will judge them. There is absolutely no way that anyone other than the Jews for whom the Law was given could know of a specific day that should be holy and the work of the Law is written in their hearts.

You're right, Bevin, very few Adventists that I know keep Sabbath for legalistic/end of times reasons anymore. That eschatology just seems like a product of its time. If that eschatology was being written today, don't you think Islam would seem like the big threat? But then Muslims don't keep Saturday or Sunday!

For me, if the actual day was so important, I think Jesus might have mentioned it. Instead, I see Sabbath as a part of Jewish heritage (which is really why the day of Christian worship was changed--to differentiate from Jews) that is a wonderful idea we can all treasure. It's actually becoming a big part of the environmental movement--imagine if we all shut off our computers and other technology for a day? Kids really do appreciate quality time with their parents, and indeed seem to thrive on having days set aside to just be together. It's an added bonus if they get to discuss important issues (like God) during that time. Any day will do, technically, but with my particular heritage, it just feels right to take this day on Saturday--it's part of my rhythm.

Given what you shared earlier about your strict upbringing, is it unnerving to realize that many Adventists (granted the more liberal-leaning ones) no longer consider this a prerequisite for salvation but more of an "icing on the cake" sort of deal?

Sirje and Bevin,

You both are absolutely right. My husband and I left SDA'ism just 5 years ago, he worked in Education for 25 years. We lived all over, mostly east of the Mississippi (but west too) and those were the rules, whether written or unwritten. I'm sure some people privately did some of these things, but I didn't know of too many, and you certainly didn't if you worked for the church. So, please, it is ridiculous to seem surprised by this. Kids are being taught essentially the same things in schools. It's not Bevin's parents fault. They didn't come up with these ideas on their own, the schools don't just teach these same things coincidentally, it didn't form in a vacuum, it all came from EGW. Remember her? Anyone ever read the Testimonies? I find it so astounding that some people seem to think that Bevin grew up in an abnormally strict family. I became a Sevie in 1976 at age 23, and that was the way it was, and I didn't see all that many changes (certainly not on a corporate level) along the way. There are hundreds of thousands of North American SDA's who would absolutely say that the list that Bevin put up is totally in line with their experience. Two big addition to Bevin's list would be the jewelrey prohibition and of course alchohol.

Douglas,
I have a charming anecdote. My MIL came to my daughter's graduation from an SDA college, which I was very happy about, since she is her only surviving grandparent. Anyway, my daughter needed a blouse, and we went to get one on Sabbath. Ever wonder what the unpardonable sin is? Well, I found out that weekend. It is shopping for a blouse on Sabbath (who knew?). She has only called our home 2 times (emergencies) in over 3 years. Yes, she used to call. She calls my husband on his cell phone when he is at work. Oh well.

Stephanie I'm the first to admit that I am not in tune with traditional SDAism anymore but my sense is that much of it, outside of the larger, more liberal churches, is still very much in the camp Bevin describes. The Sabbath is a test of our obedience. Now the emphasis may have shifted from a test which is seen as a possible burden but tough, suck it up, to a test that is also a gift and a blessing, but it is still a test. The underlying reason to keep it is still because God said you have to and if you ignore that, you will be in trouble. It isn't optional.

And I would assume this is especially true outside of NA. Perhaps someone who is more involved could shed more light.

Beth

How do you reconcile Christ's statement: "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath" and the idea of a test for man's obedience?

I think it was settled in Luther's time and endorsed by EGW that salvation is not based upon the obedience of man but on the obedience of Jesus Christ in the fulfillment of the Covenant of Redemption.

Jesus Christ knowing our frame, gave us the Sabbath for our renewal--The Sabbath is re-creational. Rest, Worship, Fellowship, and exploring--mind, body, and soul-through contemplation, conversation, reading, a Sabbath walk alone or with equally interested friends. It even includes healing, and physical ministry to those in need. Moreover, since Calvary: it is neither, time, place, or institutionally specific. Within the last 72 hours, I know He hears and answers prayers of men and women of faith of many hues. Betty is much better, up, dressed, I laid down the law. No laundry or house cleaning--I'm in charge here in this house!!

Thank the Lord and all my Spectrum friends. Tom

Tom, that is such good news about your wife. May she continue to improve. House keeping becomes less important as we age, although some must still be done. Taking care of your wife is much more important than her house keeping duties.

I totally agree with you that since the Resurrection the Sabbath no longer is a law for Christians; Jesus has replaced it.

It is so sad to know of thousands of young and old who have been taught to restrain themselves from good and normal activities on Sabbath, thus
turning their backs on all religions. The distinguishing mark of SDAs has, and continues to be the great barrier between them and the Christian world. Paul declared all barriers have been removed. Apparently, the SDA pioneers spent much more time studying the OT, D&R than Paul. What might this church have been if they had spent more time studying the Christian church that he founded?

Tom I agree with what you said. I was just trying to make the point that many SDAs wouldn't. Or perhaps more specifically, they wouldn't see a contradiction between what you said and still seeing the Sabbath as a test of obedience. I think they still see the Sabbath the way I described - I just don't happen to agree with them.

Great to hear your wife is doing so much better, Tom. I liked the no more laundry or house-cleaning for her bit...you're my new hero!

> Two big addition to Bevin's list would be the jewelrey prohibition and of course alchohol.

My wife and I were almost forbidden from teaching Sabbath School class in 1983 in NH, because we wore cheap (mine was $30, hers was a simple one from a grand-aunt) wedding rings!

When I pointed out to the dear old saint who was leading the charge against us that her stockings cost her more per year than my ring cost me in a lifetime, she did not bat an eyelid. Rings are jewelry, nylon stockings aren't.

Mind you, I have never regretted not drinking alcohol.

/Bevin

Betty and I were married on June 30, 1949. The reception was held at the Pastor's home. The reception lasted past the last train out of jamestown, N.Y. There were only two hotels in Jamestown. One by the hour and the other a traveling salesmen's type. Of course, we had made reservations for the better of the two hotels. We didn't own a car. We called a cab. Naturally, the younger set started following. I told the cabbie lose those guys, so we got a wild ride through Jamestown. We quickly lost "those guys". I had bought a $7.00 wedding band engraved for Betty. I put it on her finger in the back of that cab. The driver after about 20 minutes of Jamestown back alleys deposited us at the entrance of the Jamestown Hotel. The lobby was packed with the "wedding party". I went to the desk to register and signed in Tom Zwemer upon which the clerk asked, aren't you going to take your wife with you? Of course I resigned as Mr. and Mrs. Tom Zwemer. The bellman took our luggage to the elevator. The elevator had an arrow pointing to each floor. I should have told the bellman to stop at each floor but didn't. We stopped at the fourth floor and were taken to our room. The wedding party tipped the bellman better than we had and so within minutes the fourth floor was filled with wedding party members. Never-the-less the thing that Betty remembers the best is the placing of that ring on her finger in the back of a 1948 Chevy Cab on the night of June 30, 1949.

That ring has been replaced but it still holds a special place
in the top drawer of her dresser.

Of all the mistakes, I made on that run from the Reception to the hotel room: placing that ring was not one of them. I know God agrees. Best of all Betty cherishes both the ring and the moment.

Of course, out of courtesy to legal beagles in the Church, she didn't wear it on Sabbaths. She assured me that we were still very much married. Now we both wear wedding bands. Mine says on the inside: Tom and Betty June 30, 1949 as if I could ever forget. The ring is important. The marriage is bliss.
Tom

Joy wore hers starting at the ceremony

I got mine after we moved to the States, because of a very embarrassing incident where a nice young woman did not realize I was married

The saint mentioned above thought it might be okay for Australian's to wear wedding rings because it was the custom there, but not in New England

I pointed out to her that every married man at the lunch table at my office in NH wore a wedding ring - it was the custom here

So - question - why are the SDA practices so far out of step with what the SDA preach? This is true about food, about drink, and (back to the topic) about the Sabbath

I had a lovely Sabbath lunch in Washington a few years ago with William Johnson - Editor of the Adventist Review. Also present was a young SDA opera singer who talked about working on the Sabbath - and how he would only do "religious operas" on that day. Not a word was spoken in disagreement. Now, perhaps Wm and the other SDA present where just making their guests comfortable - but I don't think so. I think the practises of the SDA are much more liberal than the teachings.

Moral: Do what you think is right for your kids. What the SDA do today is not what they did 25 years ago, and not what they will be doing in 25 years time - and ignore what they preach, because they don't believe it themselves

/Bevin

Bevin

It has been that way for a long long time.

I was the Sabbath dinner guest at the home of a SDA conference worker. That worker had just completed the Sabbath Sermon. I was invited to ride with him and his wife and lovely daughter to their home for dinner. As soon as he started the car, the radio came on--Ball Room dance music--it played all the way home.

A classmate at E.M.C. was pastorial intern at the Wisconsin Conference. He gave the sermon on health reform with strong emphasis on the dangers and sin of meat eating. Following the sermon he suggested we all stop and get a hamburger. His wife said, "You just preached on the sins of eating meat!" He replied: "Oh that's for the people." We don't have time for that nonsense." Tom

I had just completed 33 months in the Army suviving on crackers and cheese when the army had so many complaints about the cheese they mixed it with bacon. Now I had crackers and canned or powered milk. And the guy who got deferred was hogging it!. Bevin, man has not changed, if anything fewer hypocritics. Tom