A prophet in our midst?

This piece has tangential links to several of the threads running at the moment.

Adventists trace their spiritual, social and material order back to Eden and the relational order there depicted.

Our ethic derives from the relational space described.

I am pleased that the top bod has spoken up on the theme that has been close to me since I taught Science 25 years back. I used to feel like a voice in the wilderness. Maybe wilderness is getting a little closer.

Yes, what sounded crazy years ago about environmental care, due in part to globalization, is sounding pretty prescient now.

Even if we disagree on some issues and emphasis, it seems that a discussion as a world church - including our brothers and sisters from the 2/3rds world about their concerns about balancing economic development and environmental health - would be a net good for the church.

What is the responsible reading of the word dominion to creationists? Tom

What is the responsible reading of the word dominion to creationists? Tom

The church hasseveral "official statements" posted on its main adventist.org website, and four statements regarding the environment were approved and published between 1992 and 1996:

Caring for Creation, 1992
Climate Change, 1995
The Environment, 1995
Stewardship, 1996

Fwiw.

A lot of credit has gone to the SDA prophet, EGW, for the messages on health. However, by selective use we eliminate or no longer speak about some of the specific messages to individuals that have been interpreted to the entire body of the church.

Many foods are not agreeable to some, while they may be beneficial for others. The elimination of coffee, tea, wine, even cheese, and all dairy products, pickles, and pepper have, at one time, been suggested to be eliminated from our diet. The complete abstinence, rather than moderation, has caused members to be such strict observers of the foods to abstain from, even judging those who did not follow that advice.

Moderation in all things good should be a good rule to follow, rather than total abstinence.

Elaine

There has to be a story in there somewhere. My dad, a building contractor doing largely conference work--at the time the Atlantic Union Conference. The conference decided to build a new church in Worthington, Ohio. The Union President, The Union Treasurer, My dad and the Architect took an over night train to Worthington, Ohio. At Breakfast, the Steward took orders beginning with the Union Conference President and finally to dad. The Union Conference President ordered, wheat toast, postum, orange juice. So on down the line until they got to dad. He ordered, two eggs over easy, wheat toast with orange marmalade, hash-browns and coffee with cream. Immediately, the Union Conference President asked to change his order to eggs over easy, wheat toast with orange marmalade, hash-browns, and coffee with cream. The two others followed suit. They all enjoyed a fine breakfast and a good laugh. The conference present said: " John from now on you order first, o.k. Tom

Tom, yet another great and tragic story! :-)

If Mr. Paulsen takes the "global warming" concept out of environmentalism then we Adventist should be very interested in sustainable environmentalism.

Perhaps a good place to start would be an emphasis pointed out by God on a more rural lifestyle than what we have. Isa.5:8 says, "Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!" (search out the parameters of meaning)

Sustainibility by God's plan...that's why there must be a pre-millennial coming to create it!

pat

Just noticed the link to the church's Climate Change statement was incorrect.

Correct link: Climate Change, 1995

Pat, what's it going to take? Science has repeatedly validated the fact that the earth is warming and humans are largely responsible. The Bush administration concurs. Both current presedential candidates have plans to deal with climate change. The Adventist church sees global warming as a real threat, not only to the planet, but to the least of these (our neighbors).

I visited the California state capitol a few weeks ago to discuss bills that would address climate change and create "green collar" jobs. I talked with elected officials who govern my state. The word I got from Republican leaders was consistently "We are certain that global warming is an issue...we do not dispute that. But we are still looking looking for the most effective ways of dealing with it."

Climate change is no longer a question. Roscoe Bartlett, a Seventh-day Adventist, conservative Republican Representative from Maryland, is the senior member of the Armed Services and Science and Technology Committees among other things, and believes strongly that global warming is a serious threat not only to the planet as a whole, but more specifically to the security of the United States.

Read about climate change-related legislation he proposed here.

Bartlett said,

"To provide a safer, more prosperous world for our children and grandchildren, we have an obligation to examine cooperative ways to reduce emissions and to adopt mitigation and adaptation strategies including transitioning from reliance upon finite fossil fuels, such as imported oil and natural gas, to clean domestic renewable energy sources.”

Conservative, Republican, Adventist, Congressman.

As it happens, Roscoe Bartlett is also a cartoon.

KM

Life is either humorous or tragic--it seems that the facade that gets the glory. Isn't it grand that our salvation rests in Jesus Christ and not in our breakfast. Tom

Jared,

It's going to take a complete denial of who God is in my sight as expressed in Ps.29,96,104,148 and Job 37-Job 38.

What I perceive you folks to be looking for is a socio-politico-religious-economic solution to an unsolvable problem. It's like saying I want to participate in the orgy but I want to do it in a respectable way with out the consequences of STD.(That's a "Metaphor" :~) )

You seek peace and healing in a world that sees Christ as an option in order to create globalism harmony. This aspect reminds me of the syncretistic ascetic aspects of Col.2.

In short it isn't going to occur.

regards,

pat

On one thread we dispair at Adventists praying at the pumps!
Is their any chance of organising a protest down at the Hummer showroom? Surely praying for the grace to use less fuel has a better chance of divine intervention?

That we are responsible for the resources entrusted to us as God's lease holders rather than freeholders is the point of departure for discipling in stewardship.

As westerners, we have gotten used to being the 20% who consume 80% and self-righteous to boot. The growth in demand from China and India in particular will change all that whether we like it or not. Nothing to do with trendy religion.

victor,

I would suggest you carefully ponder your statement about protesting your local Hummer dealer. I don't own a Hummer or Gas guzzling Mercedes 600 series but I suggest it is their gasoline which they purchase and not societies.

How about next we limit ones house to 1000 sq.ft. because it is societies energy being used to heat excess capacity. Where does that potential covetousness stop?

But then, the Hummer and Mercedes owners can always plant trees as a carbon offset like Al Gore. ;~)

regards,

pat

Pat,

When you speak dismissively to "you folks", I assume you include in that President Bush, Senator McCain, Rep. Bartlett, GC Pres. Paulsen, and all the many, many others on both sides of the political and religious spectrum who believe that we have an obligation to do something about the environmental crises that humans have caused. This isn't about Al Gore any longer, in case that went by unnoticed.

I couldn't follow what you meant by
"You seek peace and healing in a world that sees Christ as an option in order to create globalism harmony. This aspect reminds me of the syncretistic ascetic aspects of Col.2."

But I would be interested to hear your thoughts on stewardship. Does your understanding of God include God's mandate to protect and preserve creation as described in Genesis 2:15?

Yes Jared,

"If Mr. Paulsen takes the "global warming" concept out of environmentalism then we Adventist should be very interested in sustainable environmentalism."

Just don't see that "man made 'global warming' has anything to do with it." You see "your scientists'" theory of "probable" or likely do not make it so. Remember the previous discourse we had on "likely" and "probable" not being fact. Also correlation of events in theories does not mean causation in fact.

If you do not see the proportionality of doing something about cleaner water, crop rotation, disposal of toxic waste, strip deforestation etc. versus the lack of complete understanding of global weather patterns and weather controlled by God then we have a problem.

pat

The "you folks" refers to any who are looking for a socio-political-economic-religious solution for a world out of sync with God's sustainability plan and the parameters surrounding the thought of Isa.5:8. I look forward to the eternal Sabbath rest at the consummation.

Pat

I am not sure that I have tried to demarcate between the consequence of Global Warming which few serious observers now doubt and sustainable development which is a related and valid argument.

Every economic decision is a moral decision. Both economics and ecology derive their meaning from the same root.

I am not into the politics of envy, rather recognise that voluntary restraint may be the moral choice in respect to those who may suffer from our choices.

Can one really argue that one owns, or has a right to a product bought on credit with money that you don't own, and as it turns out, millions cannot repay. National indebtedness is a moral societal issue.

Stewardship requires that we take the long view. Can we argue that we have a right to all reserves leaving nothing for future generations?

Pat,

The idea that God is controlling weather patterns is troublesome to me. Is it to you? If God is controlling hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, hail, withering heat, freezing wind... You see what I mean.

God's being in control breaks down when sometimes we get beautiful sunsets and other times we get Burmese cyclones that destroy the lives of thousands of God's children.

Is there something you're afraid will happen if we take steps to combat climate change?

Vic,

I agree that the degree of "national indebtedness" is a moral societal issue that is enabled by congress, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Dept practices in the US. To much national debt involves the debasing of one's currency which is theft from present holders of a countries currency. That is a moral issue. It is interesting in the OT that Israel could loan but it was not to borrow from it's neighbors. It is also interesting that their silver had become "dross."

Interestingly when a country debases it's currency the poor suffer the most from higher prices. Witness food and energy worldwide as the world's reserve currency has been debased.

In a "free society" price and ones ability to pay is the only way I am aware of to determine ownership of all scarce resources including one's home,car,groceries or gas one may have.

Who is the Czar that will determine the appropriate "voluntary restraint?" What has personal choice and "relative value" to do with our saving in certain areas and spending in others?

Regards,

pat

Maybe your God doesn't control the weather but mine does. Is your God able to control the weather? If he allows another say Satan to do it on occassion is God still not responsible as in the testing of Job?

"Is there something you're afraid will happen if we take steps to combat climate change?"

Yes, an inappropriate use of scarce dollars and resources that could be better used on known problems with guaranteed outcomes.

pat

As someone who started his career as a Biology Teacher and Student of Botany and Chemistry some 35 years ago, an appreciation for Creation and God's second book together with the concept of Dominion as Stewardship does not come in the form of recent politics. Having spent years in the laboratory and field in addition to book learning, the environment is part of my experience. If the 'tree hugger' label applies, I've earned my stripes.

I do worship a God who made things in perfection, but I am also conscious of 'the fall' both in human nature, and the created order.

I am conscious that there are huge long term cycles in the earth's climate, and that our contribution to those changes may overstated for political purposes, however if one takes it that God is totally in control of these events, one still has to face up to the past and recent victims of Tsunami's, Tornado's, Earthquakes and place responsibility for these on God.

God will prevail in the end but its a rough ride en route.

Sin is not easily overcome. Our actions do cause suffering to others. Christians, exercise restraint voluntarily, not because of law, but in response to God's grace with the intent that His character on earth is better represented.

The cross on which Christ hung was a cruel tree!

Vic,

I appreciate your comments and your appreciation of nature. Most pretty weekends my wife and I sit in our small 16' boat in a cove on the St. Johns river enjoying an 8 a.m. breakfast that we take along while soaking in the ambience of the mossy trees, gators, birds, manatees,etc.while enjoying the cool morning air before the hot Florida afternoon. How wonderful is God's handiwork though fallen. We truly are blessed to enjoy these gifts.

There was a comment in today's Orlando Sentinel that had implications to our conversation. The writer (a conservationist) was saying that he could save gas by riding with his windows and A/C off but to do so he would then be breathing polluted air. He would choose his health.

Voluntary restraint? Relative Value on choices we all make?

I think the acknowlegement of fallen rather than advancing evolution causes us to recognize we are living in a period of grace until the true sustainable comes at Christ's appearing.

I have said about all I want to on this subject.

All the best,

pat

Interesting article as it relates to the socio-political-economic-religious aspect of global warming and the UN.

http://usavote.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/un-warming-program-draws-fire/

I thought you said all you wanted to say (which is why I dropped it). :-)

I'm confused about why you would reference that article if you're not convinved of climate change. The article seems to say not that climate change is false, or that there's some question about the science, but rather that people take issue with how the United Nations addresses carbon trading.

Again, it seems quite clear that the real issue is not whether climate change is happening, or that human activity is the basis, but rather the issue is how to best deal with it. There is an underlying fear that if the U.S. takes the lead and caps its own carbon emissions, but developing economies like China and India don't play along, America will be economically hampered, and we might not be the world's foremost economic superpower anymore. And THAT would be disastrous.

We also need to address the topic of Scripture and its portrayal of God as "in control" of things like the weather. For this, I turn to a very helpful book by Adventist scholars on how to read Genesis. While it is specific to Genesis, many of its principles can be extrapolated to deal with Scripture in general.

The book is entitled Understanding Genesis: Contemporary Adventist Perspectives, and it is edited by Brian Bull, Fritz Guy, and Ervin Taylor.

A chapter in Part II called "Then a miracle occurs" helps us get a grip on the biblical worldview compared with a modern worldview. Fritz Guy and Brian Bull point out in that chapter that the ancients attributed everything they could not account for to an act of the gods. Supernatural was their default explanation. When it rained, they took it as a miracle.

In more recent times, the default explanation tends to be natural. When it rains, we have a natural reason to give for the water that falls from the sky. We understand that there is a natural causal explanation of phenomena even when we ourselves do not fully understand what the explanation is.

Which is better - the ancients' default to the supernatural as an explanation, or the more modern default to natural?

In the Florida Adventist Hospital, when patients come in with pancreatic cancer, doctors do not assume a supernatural origin of the cancer and likewise do not look for a supernatural cure. Scientific advances have helped us understand our world and its functions in ways that the ancients could never have conceived of.

So to say that the Bible depicts God as in control of Nature is true, but that understanding may not be the most accurate. If, as we've said before, God is at the weather control panel sending scorching heat to Northern California during fire season, and tornadoes and floods to the Midwest at the same time, God is doing a very shabby job of being in control of Nature! That is, if we're going to contend that God is good.

And please don't give me the line that God has allowed Satan to wreak havoc on nature. If we are serious about this Great Controversy business, then God handing over the reigns to Satan makes no sense in our schema. Furthermore, to attribute every natural disaster to some diabolical supernatural being is tacit denial of the corpus of natural sciences that give the explanation for whether patterns. We don't need a supernatural explanation when we have a natural explanation.

There's a reason why the world has moved beyond the understanding of the ancients. We know better. This, by the way, does not invalidate or negate Scripture. Be careful about jumping to the wrong conclusion. All we're saying is that we understand nature more fully than the ancients understood it, just as those in 1,000 years will understand it better than we do.

Jared, I agree with your position about God's influencing or causing natural disasters. If that were so, he's done a very poor job with fires, tornadoes, earthquakes and more. OTOH, if God has turned it over to Satan, he would still be responsible for letting his arch enemy be in charge.

Because the ancients knew little of the science we understand today, they all attributed to their various gods disasters or good events such as rain and warm weather for growing their crops. We should not limit our understanding to theirs, even though it's recorded in the Bible it was all written by contemporary people with their perspective.

How often we've heard "An enemy sent this" when someone is diagnosed with a terminal condition? We were not promised immortality; we all will die sometime and we have no control over how nor when it will occur. Bad things happen to good people and vice versa. We can control some parts of our life, but not the natural disasters striking the earth. We should, like the Serenity Prayer, have the wisdom to discern the things we can control and those we cannot.

Jared,
Good comment. I'm reminded of the prime mover argument so loved by Aquinas. It doesn't carry much gravity today does it! ;)

A proper understanding of dominion should result in an environmental ethic that would help mitigate climate change. Or so one would think...

I understand why some people would doubt climate change. Somewhat but not really. Yet I have to admit being ever confused by Christians who argue that they have a warrant for wholesale exploitation and/or believe that creation care lies outside of Christian praxis.

Jared,
I had...and didn't say anything, I just posted a link.I thought you might miss the hypocrisy of the UN program demonstrated in the article.

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You Say..."And please don't give me the line that God has allowed Satan to wreak havoc on nature. If we are serious about this Great Controversy business, then God handing over the reigns to Satan makes no sense in our schema."

What "great controversy business?" You mean the one in which EGW says "Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them."
{GC 589.2}

or..."The knowledge current in the world may be acquired; for all men are God's property, and are worked by God to fulfill His will in certain lines, even when they refuse the man Christ Jesus as their Saviour. The way in which God uses men is not always discerned, but He does use them. God intrusts men with talents and inventive genius, in order that His great work in our world may be accomplished. The inventions of human minds are supposed to spring from humanity, but God is behind all. He has caused that the means of rapid traveling shall have been invented, for the great day of His preparation.

The use which men have made of their capabilities, by misusing and abusing their God-given talents, has brought confusion into the world. They have left the guardianship of Christ for the guardianship of the great rebel, the prince of darkness. Man alone is accountable for the strange fire which has been mingled with the sacred. The accumulation of many things which minister to lust and ambition has brought upon the world the judgment of God. When in difficulty, philosophers and the great men of earth desire to satisfy their minds without appealing to God. They ventilate their philosophy in regard to the heavens and the earth, accounting for plagues, pestilences, epidemics, earthquakes, and famines, by their supposed science. Hundreds of questions relating to creation and providence, they will attempt to solve by saying. This is a law of nature.

There are laws of nature, but they are harmonious, and conform with all God's working; but when the lords many and gods many set themselves to explain God's own principles and providences, presenting to the world strange fire in the place of divine, there is confusion. The machinery of earth and heaven needs many faces to every wheel in order to see the Hand beneath the wheels, bringing perfect order from confusion. The living and true God is a necessity everywhere." FE409.
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Look Jared, if You are going "to spout a GC Theme" then I suggest you do either of two things. Stick to the Bible alone or EGW alone to make your point!

I'll respond either way to you that God is in ultimate control and He can take the heat.

regards,
Pat

Johnny,

A strawman..."Yet I have to admit being ever confused by Christians who argue that they have a warrant for wholesale exploitation and/or believe that creation care lies outside of Christian praxis."

Creation care as compared to causes of "global warming" is like diagnosing the flu vs. creating a human. Not in the same league!

pat

How do the wise ones incorporate constructive Chaos theory, and Catastrophe theory, into the controlling 'gods' of which we speak, given that much of the movement of molecules in the atmosphere / universe approximates Random / Brownian motion?

Genuine question.

Victor,

When you can explain to me how the God of scripture can create a man out of dirt(though some women think we still are thus no change!)...then I will answer your question.

:~)

peace,

pat

Vic,

One last comment. If you believe EGW was sometimes right along with her sources, the above might be good to Chaos theory, "The machinery of earth and heaven needs many faces to every wheel in order to see the Hand beneath the wheels, bringing perfect order from confusion."

peace,
pat

I very much value Ellen's contribution. The quote is interesting because it reflects the mechanistic thinking of her age..."the machinery of earth and heaven...".

Quantum Theory and probabilistic thinking allow for more fluid ways of thinking about events, not requiring such close adherence to cause and effect arguments.