Just in jest: Years ago at graduation at Loma Linda, the Dean of the School of Graduate Studies worn an academic garb from a RCC university. It was something to behold!!!!

I worn an Academic garb from a Land Grant University with adorements from the American College of Dentists. In the pre-formation period, I commented, "Oh I see you have an academic robe from a church related college. If you hadn't observed, Mine is from a Land Grant University! His reply was: "never-the-less, I am dean and you are merely a department chair!!!!!!" I marched behind him! Such fun for grown men. Tom

Tom
We need your permission to go through this site's archives to retrieve all your stories and put them between two covers. Meanwhile, keep them coming!
Dave

Tom, I am also very proud to have graduated from a Jesuit school, University of San Francisco, with all the pomp and circumstance at St. Ignatius Cathedral. A memorable event, especially because my daughter and I were both in the same class: She with an MPA, and mine a BS. The Jesuits have long been known for excellence in education.

The creators of the video went out of their way to find people who don't fit the traditional mould of Seventh-day Adventists. Makeup Artists, Surfers, Fashion Designers, all very unusual jobs from my experience of SDA ideals.

In the olden days, when I was growing up, being a professional makeup artist would be considered improper for an SDA because your profession is about paying attention to outward adornment. Being a professional surfer would be unconceivable because of the prohibitions against competitive sport that Sister White wrote about. I suppose there are some circles where this thinking is still practiced.

Things have changed for the better, if not in the official church's theology, in the lives of everyday people who look past dogma and see hope and love in action. It almost gives me hope; if only I weren’t so skeptical.

What other part of your life can you say you do "every time" of "don't do everytime". It seems like Adventists are obsessed with their "god" day. I can't wake up and be that sure that I won't have to make an exception to a conviction each day, that is the fallacy I believe in this film. Even Jesus made exceptions to break the Sabbath as it was known during his time.

Jesus never made ANY statements about how the Sabbath was to be observed. Man has added the requirements on his own, not from Christ, nor from any writer in the NT. Ever wonder why?

Dave

You have my permission.

Elaine, I had the pleasure of teaching a a Jesuit University Marquette for eight memorable years. I have some very good friends who are Jesuit Priests. i could tell some real heart warming stories about Father Mac. I would need a little literary license to use Father's Mac's direct vocabulary.

He was a gient of a man. There must be 1500 dentists or more that felt the discipline and hear the wisdom of Father Mac.
And that is not including the members of the Basketball squads or the football teams. It should be put in bold print there are true Christians in the Roman Catholic Church. Tom

And such godly people exist in other camps that we "chosen" ones ought to rightfully pay tithe to! For they represent Christ even better than our own priests do!
(Melchizedek)

Regularly receiving the almumi news from USF, I always note and appreciate their keen desire and many students and others engaged in work in Africa, helping Katrina victims, and their desire to aid the unfortunate. Their mission is most commendable.

P.S. Elaine

High among my Chatholic heroes are Theadore M. Hesburg; Hans Kung; and Pope John XXIII. I assume that the writer Thomas Cahill is also Catholic--what a wordsmith. Tom

I think the greatest strength of Adventism is its greatest weakness. No matter what beliefs you hold, the church has always (in my experience) advocated questioning and personal study.

My parents were brought into the church in the UK many years ago now through a local wife and pastor emanating from the USA. It is through this couple that I have formed very positive opinions of Americans. Peanut butter cookies and corn bread. Call me simple but on lesser substance have opinions been formed.

This couple encouraged study. This study has taken me away from Adventist and Christian beliefs. I love this couple and respect them, but it seems to me that belief is a process, not a decision. Some "can" believe, others cannot. It all depends on one's own personal learning style. I can hold a belief until it is disproved, unfortunately, belief in a personal theistic God has been disproved through experience or more accurately, lack of it.

Curiously, I can believe in a deistic God.....I just look up at the sky and wonder......

Not expecting anyone to respond, just my understanding stemming from Adventism.

Denying a God gets one into Darwinism, IMO. I cannot fathom an interspecies evolution of man. The absurdity of complex systems as our digestive system, respiratory system, nervous system and basic cell construction coming together spontaneously with a billion shakes of the evolutionary dice makes me marvel at those that can believe that. A Deist, uninvolved? since I believe in a Flood, an Exodus, a Creation, He has to be involved.

Andrews, where does your belief take you, where is the ending, nothingness, dust, or something else? Can you only leave things better than you arrived, or is there an afterlife?

RDS, of course it would be ridiculous to think that all these complex systems just happened by chance to spontaneously come together even with "a billion shakes of the evolutionary dice." Luckily, that's not what evolution says happened. And to keep the thread from being sidetracked, I'll refer you to these two excellent sites that give a basic primer on what evolution does say and then I will say no more. I especially recommend the berkeley one.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

Elaine

I must tell you about Father Mac. Father Mac was a fat, old, worn out Jesuit priest. He was assigned Provost of the Marquette University School of Dentistry, and the Athletic Department the same month I joined the faculty.

They gave him a tiny office in the basement just off the cast iron stairs leading to the storerooms. He cleaned it out. Divided into an office and a confessional. At first he had lots of time on his hands, so he began exploring the basement, except for one small teaching lab, and janitorial closet the basement was a storage space for old dental equipment 30 to 50 years out of date. He inquired of the dean if the school had any use for this "stuff." The dean said heavens no. Father Mac said, If I can sell it can I have the money to make a student lounge in the basement? The dean said: "Go right ahead." Father Mac with the help of some willing students pulled out all the old dental instrument cabinets, cleaned them up and peddled them as antique storage cabinets for collectors of minitures, stamps, etc. Then he got out the old motors and drills and peddled them off to hobbists. He got rid of a few old dental chairs to fraternities for they beer lounges. The rest he got a u-haul and some students and took the entire load to the city dump.

Then he when down to one of the major hotels and sought out the head manager and took him into the lobby. He said, looks like you've had a war here. This furniture looks a mess. I know where the guys are who messed it up. They are students in my dental school. What you need is a new lobby and I need an old lobby. If you give me this old junk, I'll get you a tax write-off. So the cleaned out warehouse became the student lounge.

He then learned that the students had to run up to Walgreens for a quick lunch at highway prices. So he found some stoves, ovens, cupboards, and untensels out of the year the Teddy Roosevent was shot while campaigning in Milwaukee. Again an u-haul and a kitchen of sorts was build and sandwiches at half-price were offerred. By now he had to hire help. He hired retiring cooks for the main student cafeteria three blocks away and paid them directly without going through institutional pay-roll.

He was soon making so much money that he first cut prices, then he saved to make up-grades in equipment, then he saved to provide a free Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners to all students on campus who could not get home.

Then one day, a student came to Father Mac and said, The head janitor just stole all my dental instruments and is making me pay him to get them back. Father Mac said, how long has this been going on. The student said, for years and years. Father Mac said: "Show Me". The student took Father Mac down the hall to the Janior's lair and showed him all of his hand instruments laid out to be paid for and picked up by the student. Father Mac asked the janior where he got them. The Janior said, they were on a tray table at a dental unit at which there was neither an patient or a student. The Student said: "I laid out my instruments before going to the waiting room to get my patient. While I was gone, my instruments disappears. Students at units next to the victim agreed that the janior had taken the instruments while the student was away.

Father Mac said: To the student take your instruments, be sure to re sterilize them!"

Then Father Mac said to the Janior, let's see what else you have, and began opening draws, cupboards exposing hundreds of dental instruments. Father Mac told the Janior, he stay right here and I'' be back. Father Mac walked to the nearest speaker system and said in a commanding voice: "Now hear this! Any dental student who has lost, misplaced, or other wise cannot find any of his dental instruments come to the Janiors room in the bsement as soon as possible. The students poured in. Father Mac would say, son what are you missing, the student would as an SS White Dental Mirror, Father Mac would look through the pile, find an SS White dental mirror and say does this look like it? Of course, the student would say yes. Father Mac would say--"It yours son" Next. Within about 3 hours the Janior was cleaned out. Then Father Mac said. If I find even one dental instrument in your space or on your person from now on you will be fired without pension. Furthermore, I will see that you get at least 90 days in the county jail. Is that clear? Of course, the janior agreed and the student body cheered. The estimated loot had been over six thousand dollars at a time when my annual salary was five thousand dollars.

But the best is for last. One noon I was heading up to Wagreeens and Father Mac "running in his habit up the sidewalk". I ran to catch up with him. I said, "What's your hurry Father?" He said, prostitutes were in the apartments above Walgrens and his basketball players were up there. I said, I wouldn't worry Father, they haven't that kind of money." Father spit out, "Money hell, their giving it away!!!!" So I kept pace until I got to Walgreen's entrance.

There was only one caution. Don't eat Father Mac Christmas stuffing. He would make stuffing in 10 gallen pots in his T shirt which was gun metal gray. He would dip his arms down into the stuffing until his axial hair got in the mix. He would scrape off the stuffing back into the pot. Of course it was well heated in the baking process. But few had any stomach for it. I left for Loma Linda in 1958 and returned to give a lecture about five years later. It was Father Mac's last year. We had some good laughs and a few tears. There are no books, no monuments to Father Mac but over 2000 students know him as blessed. Tom

Tom, What a wonderful, funny, and noble character! Someone like that makes a lifetime impression, doesn't he?
And you have shared it with us. You gotta get this written or recorded so others can enjoy all these delightful stories. You've got a truckload of very unique stories covering an entire lifetime, and one that happened before many were born. Please don't let the time pass before this gets recorded for the benefit of posterity!!

Beth, Try this:

http://www.yecheadquarters.org/shame.28.html

http://www.creationists.org/patrickyoung/article02.html

Evolution has alot of glitches. Even Darwin admitted it didn't talk to origins. He observed finches adapting not evolving from another species, there wasn't progress from the sea over the sand dunes and into the finches various habitates.

RDS: I'd be interested to know your history with Adventism.

Andrews
Although I am not a Deist, I respect Deism because there is much about it that is very helpful. It gets more bad press today in some circles than I think it deserves. Go for it!
Dave

RDS

First of all I am not denying anything, or if I am denying, then I am denying nothing or “no thing”. For me, there is nothing to deny.

Although well meaning, your response seems to me to fall into a classic error of trying overlay my argument with your alternative, thus providing a foundation to discredit the initial premise. I don't see how not believing in a personal God leads me into anything in particular. I don’t have to believe in anything, especially something man made.

“……..where does your belief take you, where is the ending, nothingness, dust, or something else, …………..or is there an afterlife?”

Whatever the ending is, it is not dependent on any belief; the ending will no doubt happen anyway. Just because you or I hold a belief doesn’t mean the ending changes to conform with such beliefs.

So I could ask the same question of you. Where does your belief take you? Answer, it takes you nowhere, it is simply just another belief. You may believe otherwise, but by definition that is just another belief.

Like you mention, you seem able to believe, I cannot. I assume we are both being honest, I know I am. Pascal’s wager, does not apply.

David, thanks for the response. I am probably only a deist in terms of being unable to believe in a personal God.

Who are Seventh Day Adventist? An eclectic bunch of people in a constant state of flux. The people rather than the corporate body are elastic in their beliefs, which constantly evolve.

Alex,

Just an observation: I don't know if it is just the "extremist voices" and the "overtly loud criers" who would object to any changes in the official stance on evolution, homosexuality, and 1844, or even consideration of such. I think objection would come largely from the mainstream of the church. However mainstream can be defined, I simply mean a far greater number than your statement is implying. The practical significance of 1844 may be fuzzy to many, but the other two issues would be more clear, and the reaction much more decided, I think.

Thanks...

Frank

Andrews, your sentiments are echoed by many of us. Our beliefs have nothing to do with what happens, although people desperately hope so. Whether I believe in no god or multiple gods with many definitions makes not one whit of difference. I can rest peacefully with that belief and Pascal's Wager makes absolutely no difference at all to me.

Andrews and Elaine:

Galatians 6:8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Seems like there is more to lose, and sitting back believing in a Deist God that does nothing, and man who does nothing or believes nothing, just laissez-faire, there are consequences for that, at least according to the Bible.

Alex,

1. I grew up an SDA, born to life long SDA's, father attended Loma Linda, became a physician, my mother was a 4 year nurse who taught nurses.

2. Attended our school all except for the 2nd grade up to and including graduate school at Loma Linda.

3. Saw and lived through the brutality of the Brinsmead and Ford era as parents truly sought truth and were persecuted for it.

4. Desmond Ford's "revelation" that Christ rose not to a 2nd Apartment of a Heavenly Sanctuary but to the right hand of God, per the Bible, had me place EGW into the Devotional catagory.

5. I somewhat separated from Adventism when a church, run by a family, literally brutalized me, with a threat of censorship if I talked about the incident that happened in front of the Pastor by an Elder, the son-in-law of the Church Board Head.

6. I sought a "safe" environment for my children to get acquainted with Jesus. It involved public school and a Christian Youth Group that was part of a PCA church. Right or wrong I did not remove my name from the SDA books when the family joined the PCA church on salvific issues, I have a lot of doctrinal disagreements with the PCA Calvinist position based out of the mid 17th century Westminister Confession. But, then I have doctrinal disagreements with the mid 19th century position of the SDA roots and current positions. There is no perfect church .

Alex, does that help?

Elaine

I left out one of the best Father Mac stories. It has significance because it shaped my first encounter as a faculty member at LLU.

The dental faculty at Marquette University were by the most part part-time faculty. That is their primary income was from private practice of dentistry or one of its eight specialties. Thus, they had very little training in clinical teaching, in evaluation, and consequentially in assigning grades.

At the end of each quarter each faculty would turn in to the dean his/her grade for the student's clinical performance for the prior 11 weeks. Sometimes, that would mean the teacher supervised the student on one or two clinical sessions. Those sessions may have gone well or ended in the toilet. So the grades frequently varied from A. to F.

Following the submission by the faculty of their grades, the dean would hold an evaluation session with all of the faculty invited, and most present. Of course, those who had seen--a good performance would defend the student against a faculty who had witnessed a poor or unacceptable performance. I recall one student with 17 A's and 1 F. The faculty who assigned the F campaigned to have the student expelled. The Others thought the grades should be averaged or the F discounted as an anomoly.

In these cases, Father Mac would address the faculty who demanded expulsion somewhat in this wise: "Sir do you concede that this student passed with honors pre-school? Answer Yes, of course, Elementary School? again Yes, of course, High School? again: Yes, of course, Pre-Dental? Yes of Course? The first two years of dental school? Yes of course? The pre-clinical portion of your course? Yes. Seven of your colleagues have assigned him superior grades? Yes, but. Question But what? Answer He failed in my clinic session? Question; Were you there at the time? With your superior clinic skills, how soon did you intervene and how? Was the final result clinically satisfactory? Or did you allow a malpractice to occur? Have you ever had a bad experience in your office? How did you correct it? Or did you return your license?

Now with the full history of this student before you, would it be difficult for you to hold to your F but agree to further clincal opportunity for this young lad? Answer an almost inaudible Yes. Response. Wise choice sir--sometimes we have to grade our teaching also, don't we.

What few of the faculty knew was that the faculty meeting was held in a lecture hall with a large cold air return with an easily open screen just off the hall. A student would be assigned to crawl into the duct with a note pad, pencil and pen light. The student would take notes.

One can immagine the high regard the students felt for Father Mac. And of course the training in logic the Jesuits went through. The versions the faculty gave the students seldoms tracked with the notes taken by the assigned scribe.

Since in my discipline no student ever failed a course, only a test or a project--in which amble time was provided to do over successfully--In my discipline the students always scored in the top 20% nationally. Thus, of course, I would get the full student evaluation of the faculty evaluation. Tom

RDS,

We have much in common.

I disagree with PCA on "particular election" and "soul sleep." I could go to a PCA church and worship on Sunday if there were no Christ centered preachers in Orlando without ANY problem. I asked a rhetorical question once on this blog...With whom would I have more in common? A PCA church that teaches RBF alone and still honors a literal creation week OR a SDA church that doesn't teach RBF or "Creation" YET worships on Saturday? I'll take appropriately for me the PCA ANY day!

My kids are now adults and we did have a Christ centered SDA preacher where we fellowshiped in Georgia or I would have left the SDA church as you in the 80's.

If you live in Memphis, Dr. Richard Pratt is filling the pulpit at the large PCA church there presently. Richard taught OT Prophets to me as well as Hemeneutics. He is "extremely" intelligent and genuine. Ph.D Harvard, yet kept his faith in scripture and knows why!

Blessings to you and your family. I covet your prayers for me and mine.

PS. http://www.indepres.org/templates/cusindpres/details.asp?id=30618&PID=24...

pat

Pat

I agree with your choice. I include you in my prayers.

Tom

Thanks Tom,

Still a SDA but don't feel I have to be for "Sabbath Alone." After all, the Pharisee's worshiped on the 7th day Sabbath...how did that go for them?
------

RDS, That is IPC and not PCA in Memphis.

pat

Pat

That is why I have commented several times that emphasis on "keeping" the Sabbath as a rite of passage to heaven is works not Grace. Tom

Tom,

I agree.

I have decided that everytime at church when someone says "Happy Sabbath" I will choose to respond "Praise Jesus" from now on.

Hope your procedure went well Tom.

Pat

Don't make too many conclusions from what I wrote, I was on temporary assignment in Memphis and attended Germantown Baptist Church, a 10,000 + member church on the east side of Memphis. What a blessing, all except Sunday school and their position on the rapture and dispensationalism. The preaching was phenomenal though, and the worship music, out of this world. For a minister of music to go from leading a traditional choir in robes to being the lead guitarist at the contemporary worship service, showed a lot of talent. I use to sit through two music worship services and one sermon, what a blessing.

RDS,

I used to play in the New Hope Baptist Church Orchestra on Sundays in Fayetteville Ga. 5000 Members and 150-200 weekly in the Choir. You are correct...what a blessing. In the two years I played the pastor never discussed the secret rapture or dispensationalism although it was SBC...but how he could preach the cross!

pat

This is a production of the Australian media centre, which is consistently doing some of the most creative work in the Adventist Church these days. I think they have a hold of a very basic and powerful idea (although one that is so abstract often have difficulty understanding it): this is the strategic importance of "lived faith." This is one of the hot topics among sociologists of religion these days. It is the notion that there is the espoused faith, with all of its rhetoric (official, academic, clergy and special interest groups--marginal and central) and there is the "lived faith" that makes up the reality of the believers (the 99%) who are not in on the dialog around the espoused faith. It tends to be both far more diverse than the espoused faith (in any of its various versions) and to have a number of widely-shared themes. These TV producers have tried to use that concept, I think; maybe fallen into it by accident. (Media producers on the cutting edge are more and more likely to have an imagination like that of social scientists.) The interesting question is whether or not the themes they have touched on would actually emerge from a wide-ranging sample of in-depth interviews (the tool necessary to identify "lived faith"). My guess is some of them would, but not all. We won't know for sure until Dr. Ron Lawson, the sociologist at CUNY, publishes his monumental work on the sociology of worldwide Adventism. His is the only research that I am aware that comes close to touching on this topic adequately.

This is an interesting video. It's not as edgy as I would have done it but a good job none the less. My only concern is that when Adventist define themselves they usually leave out the 800 pound gorilla in the room EG White. Why is this? She is central to Adventism. There is no getting around her! Why not just layout it out there. Because once you become Adventist that is often the acid test (unfortunately)- DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT BELIEVE IN THE WRITINGS OF EG WHITE? Bottom line - there is no way to say what an Adventist is without adding EGW into the mix. We need to stop baiting people with God's holy word and then once we have them interested pull out EGW.

Al