Alex

Apt!

But thank God for the giants. Tom

One of the problems that has led to the persecution of genuine good Christians is the difficulty people have in trying to separate them from criminals and crazies. Jesus was thought by his own family to have lost his mind. He was hung between two thieves. People thought he was worse than Barabbas.

To choose to be an Adventist you must exercise your freedom of conscience and be a bit of a non conformist. I think this becomes a problem with the second generation of Adventist and onward who are not cut from the same cloth as their parents and grandparents. The descendants seem to want to be like the worldly culture that surrounds them. The objectives, hard work, and sacrifice, the children do not value or appreciate.

William Bradford, first governor of Plymouth, said this about the Pilgrim’s children, they are not interested in the religion of their fathers. They are interested in money, property and having a good time in this life. He says when we came here were a motley crew but we were united in our objective and purpose of following the truth.

The same thing happened to the Jews and the first Christian Church. It is should be no surprise that it is and will happen to the Adventist Church. There seems to be only a small window of opportunity in which a chosen group has to reach its objective. If they don’t achieve it a new group of crazies will have to be chosen to accomplish God’s purpose.

To the extent any religious group tends to isolate its members and looks on anyone else as "outsiders" and not be associated with, it subtly encourages this type of cultic atmosphere. There will probably always be small groups within any extremely religious group that will choose this course: it has been since the first century, and in the Jewish religion even before.

Engaging with others, learning all you can about other religions and cultures encourages tolerance and understanding; the opposite encourages intolerance and isolation.

JB

Please explain how either the Pilgrims or the first generation Millerites did God's work! To lump Jesus with Bradford, Miller, and E.G.White is about as nuts as connecting Jesus Christ with Koresh and James Jones. God's invitation is "Come now let us reason together" Just as soon as you find some logic in a final generation being superior to the first generation let us know! It certainly is not in the canon. Once you get into extra cannonical territory you are in Waco! Tom

Adventist evangelists for a long time advertized for people with extremist and cultic tendencies by focusing on apocalyptic numerology, scarlet harlots and horny beasts, all of which was wrapped in sectarian cloth with a big remnant bow on top. These evangelists sought to initiate people into a secret society with its own rituals and its own in-house prophet, in which they could aspire to become guardians of the keys to the Kingdom. It shouldn't shock anybody that this would attract crazy people. The wonder was that so many normal people passed through this process with little long-term damage.

What saved people from this apocalyptic theme park was their local church fellowship, which in many cases were "normal" Christian churches. Eventually most of the crazies, such as Vernon Howell, aka David Koresh and the current virgin-chaser in the Arizona desert, left. Of course, there is still the odd porn-chasing Nazi left but it's to the credit of the SDA church that it has focused so much on education and rational values that such people don't feel at home there.

Aage

A very good analysis. Certainly without its emphasis on its education, health, and healing ministries the cult would have died out long ago. Now the best it seems to offer in outreach is Doug Batchelor and his elitist cohort Cliff Goldstein, each with an "I gotcha" itch.

I long for the days of H. M. S. Richards, Edward Heppenstall, C.B. Haynes, and Graham Maxwell. No in your face "take it or leave it antics." Of course buried in its universities and seminaries are quiet Christian scholars of great piety and candor that seldom see the light of day on either their pen or their voice.

Without strong roots in family and in education among these men and women of God, I would be long gone from even a not so innocent by-stander. Tom

Like any religious group, Adventists are not immune from those who misappropriate the belief system to their own ends. Sometimes we have indeed encouraged the odd and peculiar, particularly with some of our outreach methodologies. But at the heart of the message we wish to share is the concept of God that is indeed predicated on freedom--the freedom of all God's created beings, and God's answers to the charges against him that he is a dictatorial tyrant who abuses power. Yet having developed such a wonderful system of truth, all too often we fall in love with the system, rather than the author of truth--hence the perennial problem of legalism and a focus on behavior-salvation.

The first missive to the nascent Adventist church was "a word to the little flock." Now we're a big herd! Trouble is, we have not outgrown our minority mentality, and we have great difficulty believing we have a place on the world stage. Yet we are called to share the good news of God beyond our protected community, and we need to be speaking of the God of freedom at the highest levels and using all opportunities open to us. Only then are we truly the salt of the earth/ light of the world. Such a huge audience to share with, and what are actually doing? Arguing among ourselves over issues, that if we're honest, don't really matter in the light of eternity.

So we need to shed our self-absorbed protective mantles and get out of our comfort zones to talk truth to power, however inconvenient and problematic that may be. Otherwise we turn inwards, and become just another irrelevant religious group.

As for being Libertarians--if that is taken to mean the defenders and promoters of true Freedom, then count me in. Don't forget: "We have to believe in free will. We’ve got no choice." (Isaac Singer)

Jonathan

Tom
You are certainly very right when you say:"Of course buried in [SDA] universities and seminaries are quiet Christian scholars of great piety and candor that seldom see the light of day on either their pen or their voice."

It reminds me of a "scene" in Arthur Koestler's book, The Age of Longing (1951) in which a Soviet academic, after years of yearning to be free to pursue and proclaim truth, finally defects to the West--only to discover that he had waited so long that he no longer had any desire to pursue truth. In the end, he chose to return home and redefected.

Of course, there are people such as Dave Larson and others who make no bones about the need to change course. But these are soloists; there is no choir out there. No passion.

To the extent young SDAs are isolated while trained, when do they safely learn how to evangelize to the world. Our history of belief in a "Shut Door" should embarrass us and bring reasonableness to how we train the next generation.

A story, when my wife attended Andrews University, the girl's dean of Lamson Hall, told the girls to turn their boy friend's pictures to the wall while dressing in the name of modesty. This is where the "crazies" originate, IMO, unless one kicks against it or runs away as fast as one can.

Do we attract so many more crazies through our apocalyptic focus than churches that promote "Left Behind" theology? Judging by the sales of that series, there are a lot of people who believe that pilotless planes and driverless cars will be a divine result of the rapture of the saints.

With that said, I've seen the parade come in and out of our local church over the years, complete with Jesuit conspiracy theories, Illuminati plots, UFO preoccupations, salvation by diet, etc. When Amazing Facts style evangelism is pushed out front, and Jan Marcusson type theology is pushed in house, the church is creating an environment for nut trees to grow.

But, when the gospel is preached and emphasized, another interesting phenomenon occurs...they leave. They think the church is apostasizing.

Thanks...

Frank

I find it highly ironic that many Adventist sub-cultures, while holding a libertarian position toward the larger Christian community and society in general, are the antithesis of "libertarian" with respect to individuals within its own sub-culture. The more wacko/Waco the community, the less libertarian. While not quite as extreme as Waco and El Dorado, the original blogger, "Heretic Spire", apparently grew up in, and rebelled against, such a community. I'm not surprised such communities are often flash-in-the-pan (figuratively, and sometimes literally), "one-generation-and-out" (as JB hints at) "movements".

I'm not so sure individualism and education, in and of themselves, are the answer either. After all, libertarianism does attract crazies as well as intellectuals. Perhaps it is the go-it-alone, I-don't-need-anybody, no-one-else-gets-it, "just-God-and-me" kind of Adventist libertarianism that is so unsatisfying (at best) and dangerous (at worst). Even purely intellectual pursuits for non-contextualized "truth" leave much to be desired.

In an increasingly urbanized, cosmopolitan, diverse and pluralistic world, perhaps a more humble and collaborative posture toward society, each other and the state (is the state "Big Brother/the Other," or is it "We, the People"?--that depends on our choice to engage, or not engage, in the process of self-governance) may ultimately be more satisfying and effective. After all, we have been instructed to "render unto Caesar", and to be "subject one to another".

David Koresh WAS NOT a 7th Day Adventist. His cult was not a part of the church. His teachings were in stark contrast. From day one on national television a representative from the SDA church was making this clear. It is amazing that people could actually believe otherwise, but that is what our world has become ... a generation of people who don't care to find out the truth.

R. Girard, the issue may not be if David Koresh was a member of the SDA church but from whence he and his followers came from. My wife went to school at Wisconsin Academy outside Madison, Wisconsin, with Steve, Koresh's number 2 who appears to have put a bullet through Koresh's head and his own. That is significant and worth pondering the path to Waco from Wisconsin Academy, don't you think?

Tom,

They did God’s work because the Pilgrims brought Religious Liberty. Roger William’s was a Puritan. EGW was a prophetess of God and Miller preached the message of October 22, 1844.

Jesus was called crazy, demon possessed and a deceiver; many people still say that of Him today. Jesus was rejected by his own people as a criminal. People said the same thing about Barabbas, Koresh, Jim Jones, EGW, William Miller, and the William Bradford and the Pilgrims. Who therefore is crazy? Usually when the righteous are punished they are not called sensible people they are confused with criminals.

God gave a message to the Adventist founding fathers. They did not achieve the objective God set for them; their descendants will have to improve on their performance if we are going to see Christ come the second time. The name Seventh Day Adventist is a clear picture of what we stand for.

Hang in there Tom. You may be one of the “mixed multitude” who may question why you ever left Egypt, we may be faulty, but if you stick with us we will lead to the promise land, when we get our “act together”, and that will be priceless.

Well JB, that is the same kind of vanity that has me thinking about easing on down the road.

Dick,

“Whither will ye fly”! There is nothing down that road! We have the words of life. Confidence is important to anyone or any group who is going to achieve success.

JB
Thanks

Did yu know that the Puritans threw Williams out of the colonies?

Did you know that E.G.W. picked upon on all the fears and misgivings of the Mathers? All but drowning alleged witchs?

She let that for a final work of judgement?

Other than the American Indians being the lost ten tribes, She pretty much was in tune with Josesph Smith--even to an early Holy Flesh experience.

I am glad that I was raised within the rational elements at home and at E.M.C. and as an adult I met some real SDA Christians. Never-the-less at the core--Herbie Douglass school of thought et al it is cultic as the day it was born. Tom

JB,
In a nutshell, what are those "words of life"? I've been trying to figure out what makes the SDA message better "news" (Gospel) than other Christian groups? Granted, some of them look forward to being snatched out of their moving cars while others try to pray their kids out of purgatory, and on and on it goes; but how are our obsessions with time lines and veggies any better news for the masses living without God?
It seems we like to concentrate on spreading our "gospel" to the already churched, inviting them to join God's "in group". While the rest of humanity is banging on the door of the Ark, we, SDAs are cozy inside, the apple of God's eye by virtue of.... WHAT?

If your answer is the Sabbath then you're saying the SDA "gospel" is the Sabbath, contrary to anything I've found in the Bible. And if those "words of life" are not there (the Bible alone), what is our salvation based on? If your answer to that one is "the spirit of prophesy" then we're off the path that lead a bunch of people to Waco.

JB, sometimes the line between arrogance and confidence is a fine one.

"They did God’s work because the Pilgrims brought Religious Liberty."

It's a kind of religious liberty no one today would want. As soon as they reached America's shores they began punishing people who did not attend church every Sunday--for hours; they put in stocks a husband who kissed his wife on Sunday, they ran out Roger Williams who was a true proponent of religious liberty. Catholics were persecuted and settled Maryland because no other state was hospitable.

There has always been persecution by the majority over the minority. Only when there is tolerance and acceptance of other people's beliefs as being as equally important to them as our own, will there be religious freedom.

Wasn't Paul's first letter to the Corinthian Christians anti-libertarian? Is official Adventist teaching about God's ownership of our body, the Spirit's temple, compatible with libertarian doctrine?

'Libertarianism holds that agents initially fully own themselves and have moral powers to acquire property rights in external things under certain conditions...

'Libertarianism... tends to be “left-wing”. It opposes laws that restrict consensual and private sexual relationships between adults (e.g., gay sex, non-marital sex, and deviant sex), laws that restrict drug use, laws that impose religious views or practices on individuals, and compulsory military service.'

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/libertarianism/

1 Corinthians 6:16-20

"There's more to sex than mere skin on skin. Sex is as much spiritual mystery as physical fact... Or didn't you realize that your body is a sacred place, the place of the Holy Spirit? Don't you see that you can't live however you please, squandering what God paid such a high price for? The physical part of you is not some piece of property belonging to the spiritual part of you. God owns the whole works. So let people see God in and through your body."

Joselito
I don't think anybody has tried to make the point that Adventism has much in common with Libertarians, except that both groups tend to attract people outside the mainstream of religion as well as society.

Adventism has always been a very authoritarian movement. The earliest splits in the church came about largely because of the rough way in which Ellen and James White treated people in the church. I don't know how it is nowadays, but back in my day, church leaders appeared to have taken their leadership classes behind the Iron Curtain. The only libertarian streak I ever noticed involved money-making. The Davenport scandal exposed numerous church leaders with bags of church money in the freezer, conference and union money kicked back in grateful appreciation by the scoundrel at the heart of the matter. When ethical lapses like these took place, church leaders became Libertarians, adopting a live and let live attitude. The whiff of independent theological thinking, however, quickly brought back their rottweiler instincts, as seen at Glacier View and Southern College.

Aage

My mind has been lately occupied with a provision from a document that has been amended by former colleagues in the ministry back home, in connection with our mission college/university. Something is wrong, I believe. Or, am I mistaken? Nevertheless, I'm still unable to decide whether what we have is a libertarian or authoritarian example of exported Adventism. Let me know what you and others think, if you see any relevance to this conversation.

SECTION 1. Election of Officers
SECTION 1.1 Board
At their organization meeting, the members of the Board of Trustees shall elect from among themselves a Chairman, a Vice-Chairman, a President, a Secretary, a Business Manager, and a Treasurer. The same persons may hold and perform the duties of more than one office, provided they are not incompatible with each other.

Joselito
It would be interesting to have somebody who knows organizational matter comment on it. I know very little about organisational structures.

What I do know is that those who have power try to enhance their power. Power is only relinquished when their is sufficient outside pressure. The SDA church has always been afraid of its own laity, meaning democracy. It's run almost like the Roman Catholic Church in that respect with the GC functioning as the Adventist Vatican. Both churches are run by the clergy.

Having an undergraduate degree in organizational behavior, it is very apparent that there is much fear to relinqishing control when all of the leading positions will be self-appointed, and even multiple roles in some. That is a clear picture of a highly autocratic structure.

Who is willing to bell the cat on this?

Tom,

Yes, they did throw him out but he was a Puritan. He was just more of a Puritan than the other Puritans. He was a dissenter among dissenters. He was too far ahead of his time, another one of those crazies. EGW is the same; she was ahead of her time. God’s prophets see things far into the future others cannot see; therefore they are called crazy weirdoes. The real problem is our own ability to separate the true from the false. Moral blindness is the same today as it was in Jesus’ day. Some people called Jesus a good man; others said he was a deceiver, so there was a division of opinion concerning Him.

Sirje,

In a nutshell, 28 beliefs, they are from Jesus, they are the words of life. Don’t pay too much attention to the people; we are faulty just like Israel wondering around in the desert for 40 years but they were God’s chosen people.

Elaine,

We should all be grateful for the Puritans who came to New England. They are the reason America has become a great nation.

JB
The Puritans had a lot in common with the Taliban and I think we can be glad that their grim interpretation of the Christian faith did not triumph culturally. Just image Plymouth Plantation replicated all over this country). That being said, they contributed a strong sense of public morality to this country. Cultural values are very important, and the Puritans and other straight-laced Protestants bear a lot of the responsibility for the fact that this country did not turn into a Louisiana, with endemic corruption and patronage politics (emphasis on 'endemic' since episodic corruption is a concern).

America is a quilt, and the Puritans represent one square. The Enlightenment, the separation of powers, the Constitution make up others.

JB

Did you ever consider a career as a spin doctor? Tom

JB,

28 doctrines are the words of life? It used to be 27...tomorrow it may be 29. This expanding creed is equivalent to the gospel by which we are saved?

It sounds as if official Adventist theology is the only way to eternal life.

Frank

Sevent-day Adventists as libertarians is an oxymoron. They would divide the sheep from the goats on a faulty reading of Dan 8; they would demand a final perfect generation, and the exclusive rights to Rev. 14. They would demand an honor of time in the face of a God that is timeless. How open is that? Tom

Aage,

Please don’t confuse the Puritans with the Taliban. Look at their hats, one wore a Fedora the other a Turban. I admit our forefathers, the Puritans, were not perfect, but they were more precious than fine gold. If you read through the Massachusetts Body of Liberties published in 1641 there will be found many laws that became part of the United States Constitution. Thanks to Roger Williams, another Puritan, they were to add Democracy and real Religious Liberty. That little colony of Rhode Island became a hornets’ nest of freedom. If our forefathers made mistakes concerning Liberty we can understand why, because even today people still have a difficult time with it. Considering the times in which they lived they are to be congratulated, respected and praised.

It is true America is a patch work quilt of peoples, and languages, from all nations but the rock of law, the United States Constitution, on which it rest is Protestant Puritan.

Frank,

We may add more truths in the future to the 28 we have now but as Clifford Goldstein said, I would accept them too. On the other hand, Salvation, thank God, does not rest on understanding 28 beliefs. Jesus still hands out pardons to those who, like the thief on the Cross, only know enough to say, Lord remember me when you come in your kingdom. The Great Physician cure’s sin, His laws prevent it from happening in the first place, both have their place in God’s great scheme of righteousness.

JB,

I agree that both have their place in the scheme of righteousness, but what place?

Romans 4:15 says that "...law brings wrath." 5:20 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase..."

1 Cor. 15:57 "...the power of sin is the law."

The reason I bring this up is not that the law is not good, it's that Paul is saying that sin in sinful man is actually incited, not prevented (as you put it), when confronted with the law. This is Romans and Galatians through and through.

Prevention comes through grace, through the recieving of Christ and his Spirit into our lives, and through the internalizing of the principles of love that the Spirit begins and continues to work in us. Against the fruit that is born of this, "there is no law."

It just seems to me that we sometimes misplace the role and capacity of the law in Adventism. Maybe we are uncomfortable with Paul's seemingly negative statements?

Just some thoughts...

Frank

So, JB, the Puritans wore fedoras?

"It is true America is a patch work quilt of peoples, and languages, from all nations but the rock of law, the United States Constitution, on which it rest is Protestant Puritan."

Finally--an American who admits you owe it all to the English!

Don't know that the Framers of the Constitution would have ever identified themselves as "Protestant Puritans"--but then, what would an Englishman know?...

But on the point of those wonderful Puritans, I do so like this letter, written by Rev. Cotton Mather, a very prominent Puritan minister of his time:

"Sept.ye 15, 1682
To ye Aged and Beloved Mr John Higginson:
There is now a ship at sea called the Welcome, which has on board a hundred or more of the heretics and malignants called Quakers, with W. Penn, who is the chief scamp, at the head of them.
The General Court has accordingly given secret orders to master Malachi Huscott, of the brig Porpoise, to waylay the said Welcome, slyly as near the Cape of Cod as may be, and make captive the said Penn and his ungodly crew, so the Lord may be glorified, and not mocked on the soil of this new country with the heathen worship of this people.
Much spoil can be made by selling the whole lot to Barbados, where slaves fetch good prices in rum and sugar, and we shall not only do the Lord great service by puniching (sic) the wicked, but we shall make great good for his minister and people. Master Huscott feels hopeful and I will set down the news when the ship comes back." Cotton Mather

Such a truly amazing blending of certainty that they're doing the Lord's bidding, and a great scheme to turn a profit too. Reminds me of some other religious administrations...

Mind you, he did graduate from Harvard when he was only 15, which maybe says more about Harvard than him... Can't imagine any ENGLISH university falling to that kind of level.

OK I've done my best to stimulate a repeat of 1776. But there's some points in there somewhere..

Best, Jonathan

Sainthood is always given posthumously.

Jonathan,

The Puritans are much maligned today probably as a result of Hollywood’s portrayal of them. They really were sincere Christians in search of the truth. Roger Williams urged them to continue to cut away Catholic and Church of England traditions. They thought he went too far when he decided baptism by immersion was the true method of baptism.

One man writes him about keeping the Seventh day Sabbath. He says he has thought about it quite a bit but there were some texts such as the Lord’s Day and the law being done away that troubled him. However, he did know that Catholics said there was no authority other than the Church for worshipping on that day. He also wondered what Daniel 8:14 meant when it said, unto 2300 days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. He was also a strong believer in the second coming, that truth is progressive, and a firm believer in the Bible.

After he was banished from Massachusetts he didn’t belong to any Church other than the Baptist for a short time. He said he wanted a Church that had a prophet from God, like the disciples, because spiritual authority had been lost during the dark ages. They therefore called him a Seeker.

Frank

If a person smokes, comes down with lung cancer; stop smoking will not cure the cancer. He needs a doctor to cure him. Once he is cured, will that prevent him from coming down with cancer? No, cures do not prevent cancer. Following the rule of not smoking prevents cancer. It’s the same way with law and grace. Obedience to the Ten Commandments prevents sin but if you do sin you have grace to restore you. Finally the day arrives when you don’t need grace anymore because you live a sinless life. This is the goal we strive for; we wish to learn to live a sinless life just like Christ. Spiritual health requires both prevention and a cure.

The law is a good thing because if obeyed it prevents sin. It becomes your enemy however once you sin because it says you must die if you disobey. The law has no cure for wrong doing. This is why the text says the law brings wrath. It gets worse the more you learn about the law and how far reaching it is. Truly the power of sin is now the law.

JB

What are you smoking? Tom

P.S. JB

H. M. S. Richards told the following story at our dinner table years and years ago. It seems he was preaching at the 11 o Clock service on the final day of Camp Meeting in the Midwest. At the end of the service, an old farmer approach Elder Richards and confessed that he had not sinned in 12 years. H. M. S. Richard responded: "You must be very proud!" The father replied, "Ok yes indeed, yes indeed, and walked away. Tom

JB,

Seeing that as we walk with Jesus our repentance will continue to deepen, thus moving us to admit our need of grace for pardon and power in increasing fashion, how will we arrive at the place where we never need grace anymore?

To arrive at that place would be the height of prideful independence from Christ, it seems to me.

Frank

The idea of becoming sinless by striving and thus eliminating the need for grace sounds a bit like that old story of a serpent who promised "and you will be like God".

How many readers believe that Enoch was translated because he gained personal perfection?

How many readers believe that Enoch was translated because he had perfect trust in Christ's perfection?
Tom

Tom,

I smoke the Bible and I must confess I inhale.

Frank,

All the other people in the Universe live sinless lives and have been doing it for millions of years. The Angels live sinless lives. Jesus came here and proved a person can live a sinless life, from the cradle to the grave, while surrounded by sin and sinners. A sinner must confess he is wrong acknowledging the Law is righteous, and then a process of restoration begins. When that process is finished you are perfect again. There is no real reason to be proud about what we should have been doing all along. This is why Jesus tells the story of the servant doing his duty in Luke 17.

Satan’s argument is that a free person cannot live a sinless life. If this were true God would be at fault, Satan and sinners justified and we wouldn’t need a Savior. Now that Jesus has proven that sin is not a necessity, one of the few things left to prove is that He can restore a sinner to perfection. This is what the 144,000 prove. The Redeemed live a life of perfection throughout eternity, just like all the other righteous in the Universe; obedient to the Law.

The point of bringing attention to October 22, 1844 is to announce this is the beginning of the end of Grace. If you want Salvation now is the accepted time. When Jesus walks out of the Most Holy Place and says, it is done, let him that is holy be holy still, the door of Salvation and Grace will have closed. This is reason the SDA church was raised up. Many protestant churches teach grace but only the SDA Church has the message of the Investigate Judgment and the close of probation.

" Finally the day arrives when you don’t need grace anymore because you live a sinless life. This is the goal we strive for; we wish to learn to live a sinless life just like Christ."

JB, Who do you nominate for having reached that point? Are you comparing yourself to Jesus that you can live sinless because he did? Who was your father? Was your mother a virgin?

"All the other people in the Universe live sinless lives and have been doing it for millions of years. The Angels live sinless lives."

Where do you get this weed you're smokin'? How many of these millions in other universes are you personally acquainted with? Weren't there quite a few (one-third) of the angels who did not live sinless lives?

Whose fiction have you been reading? Can you give us substantiation for these remarks, or, do they arise from a very fanciful imagination?

JB

A non sequitor is not argument. The greatest hokes ever played on man next to "Thou shalt not surely die." Is the myth of a final generation of a 144,000 little Jesus Christ's hiding in some protected wooded lot. A concept prepretuated by Ken Woods, Herbie Douglass, and a few other nuts running around the Red Wood Trees of Northern California. Jesus Christ died for me and thousanda of other sinners who call upon His name and His name alone for their redemption. "Nothing in my hand I bring,only to thy cross I cling!" From Abel to Paul to Martin Luther to Edward Heppenstall to even John XXIII that is the cry. Salvation is not a denominational thing, it is a Godly gift. Tom.

JB,

We, as Christians, live between the times of the cross and his coming. As long as we do, we will continually experience the "divine infection" of the Spirit administering God's grace to us, as Gorden Fee put it. But "divine perfection," so to speak, will only fully happen when he comes.

Besides, the biblical idea of perfection is more of a dynamic growth in maturity, than some fixed or absolute moral point that we reach. I think AA puts it well; the life of recovery is always about "progress, not perfection."

Thanks...

Frank

Elaine,

There are some people who have recovered from sin and lived near perfect lives. Enoch lived for three hundred years without sinning. Moses lived more than forty years without sinning. Elijah apparently lived a fairly sinless life. Jesus is different because Jesus is not like you and I. He was like Adam. Like Adam, he was perfect from his birth. He never sinned. We are born sinners. The question remains can we through the grace of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit once again reach perfection.

The weed I am smoking is the Weed you need. Take a deep draft; hold it and you will soon be sky high. You will go around singing Yael Naim’s song: New Soul.

Everyday scientists are discovering new planets. Look up at the sky at night; we are not alone. I have never met those people but God has told us they are there. Get some of that Weed and you too will see the light.

Tom,

Jesus did die for you and everyone else. However, you have been misinformed about the purpose and function of the 144,000. Don’t worry about them. Hold on to what you have and you should be okay. We will take care of the problem of the 144,000. In the kingdom you will marvel at them and will be fully informed on their purpose and function.

Frank,

It is true there will always be growth in the Christian’s life. You must admit that you can tell when a plant is growing crooked or not growing at all. If we don’t grow He removes us. If we do grow Jesus prunes us until we produce the fruit he is looking for.

JB

I'm just worried about you. You seem confused, at least in your writing--about perfection et al and then waiting until heaven. I know in whom I have believed and I am sure that He is able. But it seems that from time to time you are saying that you also are able. There is the rub.

That gets into the cultic fringe.

The finished work of Christ settled the Great Controvery at the cross not at the second appearing.

I worry about those dear souls who keep picking at gnats. Tom

Tom,

Grace is a wonderful thing. Thank God for Grace, but God cannot run a universe on Grace. Could you run a business based on grace? If an employee comes to work late, how long will you forgive him? If an employee breaches security how long will it be tolerated? If a boss must keep forgiving employees it implies there is something wrong in the design of his management system. He is the real problem not the employee. Grace is something God offers to us on a temporary basis. There is nothing wrong with getting to work on time or following the rules of security. The day comes when the employee must either perform of be fired.

God has gone to great length to save us. There is no reason we cannot live a sinless life. God has provided everything necessary for our perfect performance. If we fail it is because we choose to disobey.

Christians are making the same mistake the Jews made. They thought the ceremonial law would never end. They thought it was wrong for Christians to say the just shall live by faith. They thought they were justified when persecuting because Christians were teaching lies, misleading people that they no longer needed to sacrifice animals. Even some Jewish Christians had a difficult time letting go. Today gentiles are falling in the trap they complained the Jews fell into. Grace they say is forever, it cannot end. We must realize the purpose of the ceremonial law and the purpose grace. When we see their role in the plan of salvation it becomes clear they are both temporary.