Los Angeles - 28th out of 30. Not too bad!

More from Collegedale than College Place? Fascinating.

I'm surprised that Augusta (my old stomping grounds) is right behind NYC. Wow.
jen*

Considering that most of the hits are from those within or in someway associated with the Adventist community, I'm not so surprised by NY's position. The GNYC happens to be quite more conservative...more in tune with the Review than with what is generally expressed on this site.

Maybe a bit of a generalization from someone in the mix up here...

Thanks...

Frank

I'm a bit surprised by London being at the top. I had the idea that many Adventists in London are from the islands and would be very conservative.

Carrol,
Andrew Willis's post on Radical Orthodoxy was linked to from a London Sunday TimesOnline blog. Good content will attract readers from both within and without our denomination!

Alex!
Thank you for all you are doing to make this a success!
Dave

That means a lot coming from a lion of Adventist Forum, Dave.

I want to make it clear that this is a massive community effort. In addition to Alita, Bonnie, Daneen, Gordon, Johnny, Jonathan, and Leigh, it's really our commentariat that makes it fun to visit this site.

Wow - London is on your case!

But seriously, Conservative or Liberal, we
love a debate and we love each other. We do
however get bemused by issues that matter to
the lovely people across the pond.

The period evaluated had a significant blog
on Waco which had a UK interest factor. The
debate missed considering the impact of
eschatology speak on vulnerable marginalised
people.

It's good to feel the Pulse.

Victor - London

Alex
Of late I have been wondering why you and I sometimes view things that took place ten years ago somewhat differently. It finally dawned on me that a decade is a lot thinner slice of my life than yours. For you that may seem like a long time ago; for me it is yesterday morning. Good on you!!
Dave

Victor
You raise an interesting point, the extent to which "eschatology speak" is a sociological litmus test. It certain would explain the fate of Adventism in the Western world as opposed to the developing world.

Politics would offer a parallel. Those who do well under the existing system, generally do not want major changes to take place. We call them conservatives. Those who have done poorly, are keen for change, and those who have nothing to lose, tend to look at revolution as a solution.

A totally different question is if SDA eschatology is rooted in a misunderstand of Pauline soteriology.

By the way, in 1972 I went to Newbold with Steve Schneider, who would come back in the 80s to recruit for Waco among those you refer to as "vulnerable". Steve, however, did not come from such a background. He was a happy-go-lucky girl-chasing guy whose fondness for Barkshire pubs got him kicked out of school a few months early. His bane seems to have been a fondness for improbable conspiracy theories, with which he regaled me years later, when I met him again at Andrews University in 1978 (he was passing through.).

Aage
Our point deviates from the main point of the blog I suppose save that Spectrum is celebrating its breadth of recognition. In a week that Bush met Brown and Benedict we have a connecting point.

There are plenty of people who just love conspiracy theories especially if they reinforce some nationalistic instinct. Good luck to them.

More serious is the case when this is presented with rigour to people who have reason to feel the world is rigged against them. The net effect is to exacerbate their fear of the world rather than encourage them to participate in society, finding in Adventism the Sanctuary of which Newport speaks.

Worse still this serves to impoverish rather than liberate.

We have to become accountable for the outcome of our patter.

Not knowing where to mention this, but have their been many comments on the fiasco in Texas with the FLDS and the 400+ children involved? This is a major event as reported in the news media and there doesn't seem to be any good resolution at all. Will these children be forever separated from their families? Will their parentage ever be completely determined? What is the future for both the children and their mothers? The State of Texas has taken on a phenomenal task in deciding their fates.

Elaine, this could possibly be a divergence but I have been wondering and watching the FLDS thing open up. It is easy to listen and watch details unfold and with disdain and forget to watch with care as to whether rights are being ignored. Also, as with Waco and clear over to radical Islamic groups, the US government seems to have no effective tools to work with extreme fundamentalists. At best the US government fulfills their prophecies. If you go to NPR - Talk of the Nation, Report of Abuse Prompts Raid of Polygamous Ranch from April 10/08, ( ( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89532507 ) , about 8:20 into the interview a caller asks if the call from the sixteen year old reporting the abuse was indeed verified as coming from the ranch. The reporter said to his knowledge it hadn’t been but didn't need to be (or in words like that). Now there are reports that maybe it was a false call. I am not defending abuse but am quite bothered by procedure. If we don't like a groups beliefs, are we at all concerned for strict adherence to raids being carried out in a legal way.

Wow, Aage,
I think I was just talking about that same guy Steve with my parents yesterday, because in the (mid)80s he and his wife were in Hawaii, 'recruiting for Waco' while we were there. I didn't remember them cuz I was little, but my parents think of them every time the anniversary/Waco comes into conversation.

Interestingly, there was another young lady that went to our church in Hawaii who left with them, but ended up leaving the compound not too long before the showdown. She and her son were profiled on GMA yesterday morning. (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=4680793&page=1)

jen*

Jen
The Steve Schneider story is sad. It was while he was in Hawaii that he joined the Waco group, if I'm not wrong. He ended up giving up his wife to David Koresh (aka Vernon Howell, a failed rock musician), after this one proclaimed that God had awarded him--Koresh--all procreation priviliges, and that sexual relations were to cease among the believers. After the ATF killed the second in command during the initial assault, Steve took his place and he was the person who communicated with the FBI during the stand-off. Steve was a charming and friendly guy. What happened to him--and the others--was really tragic. If anything should persuade us about the value of appreciating nuance and ambiguity, his story should. But we shall always be drawn to people who ascend to the pinnacle of certitude, who dispense gospels that explain the universe beyond doubt. Fundamentalism can comfort but it can also kill.

I shall always have fond memories of Steve. He gave me my first modern haircut (boy, did I need it!) and indirectly did wonders for my self-confidence.

Aage,

Really poignant. Thanks for your contributions to keep the dialog fresh and challenging.

BTW, I think I would merge Casselberry and Altamonte Springs together which would catapult the Forest Lake crowd into the top spot. That is, if this is the Casselberry I'm thinking about.

Bruce

Yes, it's Casselberry, FL.

That whole central Florida contingent sure does widen the google stats' circle. It probably should get a Wow! all it's own. How many are there?

I'm glad that we're going to have the Adventist Forum conference there this Fall, I'm looking forward to putting names and faces together.

There we go again - rig the numbers to fit the narrative!
I would thought you guys would have had enough
electoral shenanigans from Florida?

Only kidding - London

Sorry to have contributed to waylaying the thread, but let me pick it up again. I would first of all say thank you for allowing those of us outside the pale--and then some--to take part in this forum. I had initially no intention of hanging around but somewhat to my surprise, I find myself returning. When I left the church years ago, I had hoped to hold on to my old friendships but, unfortunately, fundamentalism does not allow for it. Fundamentalists can befriend and even socialize with prospective members but ex-members are by and large anathema. The Spectrum forum, however, has been a fun experience. I may have left the SDA church, but I did not leave my interest in religious studies behind.

Dave Larson, for whom I have developed a great deal of respect through this forum, pointed out in a thread on the Teaching Company, I think, that when you leave an organization that meant a lot to you, you leave part of yourself behind. I suppose in a sense it is this ghost that I've come looking for in this forum. Thanks.

Aage,

You speak for me and probably others who have left the church, but the church cannot leave us! We made our friends there, and for those who are not fundamentalists, we still have many who will continue to be friends. This blog, as well as the SDA church I've been privileged to attend, allows me to continue religious discussions, unafraid of heresy.

Isn't it often true that those who were once part of an organization have a unique persective on things that those who are "inside" may have difficulty seeing? There are those who made a very conscious decision to part company with an organization when they can no longer agree to its concepts, and must continue to hear from the organization that those who leave were mistreated or had their feelings hurt. That is the usual excuse made, but when has the church surveyed those of us who left to really find our answers? Do they even care, or do they simply seek more new converts as replacements?

Aage,

For differenr reasons, I too am glad to be here, like you. Coming from a local church that is very conservative in its views, the diversity of thought here is refreshing and challenging.

Thans, Spectrum!

So glad to have you here, Aage. I love that this is a place where a broad range, a spectrum, of Adventists (or just Adventist-ish) folks can get together. I saw a line in the last Spectrum journal from a former Adventist who said, "There will never be a time when I wasn't raised Adventist." I thought that explained very nicely why in some ways it's true that "Once an Adventist, always an Adventist."

Alex

Congratulations on a busy week-end.
Sorry that some of it cut up rough.

Having been amused by London’s ranking, perhaps we could get beyond parochialism and discover the distribution of issues that actually attract interest. If it is true, as Johnny suggests that my erstwhile colleague and neighbour’s article on RO was the cause of London’s attention, there is an interesting line of argument about the segmentation of theological debate among the community we serve.

The regular circle of commentators just didn’t show up on RO.
(By the way Andy, I can see why your head hurts from time to time!)

As a non-theologian, indeed as a member of the minority, maligned race, otherwise known as Church Administrators, I can only retain some semblance of sanity by observing with humour the plethora of contradicting theologies, often presented with the intensity of Grid Iron commentary. (Some of us don’t get Grid Iron, less so the commentary.)

In this part of the world, Richard Dawkins and his God Delusion fraternity would probably dispatch Theologians of every hue to the faculty of Ancient Mythology. It really is time for many of us to suspend paranoia, partitions and suspicions and face up to the real issues confronting Christianity.

How many Americans harp on about life under Jimmy Carter? I suspect few.

Yet in these pages there are repeated references to events in Adventism of the same period. Many of us were ourselves students at that time. As children we had to create a world beyond the wars (WW2) our parents fought, and we have to do it spiritually.

Reading Aage and Elaine’s pain – I understand it – I too grew up with the lash of fundamentalism and am determined as any to resist narrow mindedness and create space for regular people. (Believe me, the brethren struggle with my sense of hilarity)

It’s time for all of us to focus on the real JC. No joking.

God bless your effort.

Thanks Aage and Elaine and Victor for your honest comments. It's nice to hear what our users find useful here. We'll be offering a survey soon, so make sure that you get your voice heard as we continue to hone.

On a related note, I've become increasingly interested in persons who identity as Adventist and another faith. I have friends who consider themselves Methodist/Episcopalians and Buddhist Jews. There are a couple of Spectrum friends who pastor United Church of Christ/Seventh-day Adventist churches?

We've heard those worries about being "unequally yoked" with a partner of a different faith. What happens when you yoke yourself? Anyone have experience with that?

Interesting project Alex

I started my career as a Biology teacher in a convent.

My party gag is that: I used by a Nun,
but they wouldn’t let me get into the habit.

I did learn to love and respect people whose devotion and dress sense I couldn’t fathom.
Not that I would describe myself as a Roman Adventist or some other permutation.
I am however fascinated to discover and own the contribution that Methodism and Anglicanism, that was part of my parents becoming. I am interested in the contribution that Quakerism made in the culture to which I was born. They are all part of me.

We have all drunk from wells we did not dig.

While some have the challenge of reconciling multiple faith traditions, and theologies most of us have to reconcile other disciplines no less challenging. For me to reconcile / “yoke” strands of Science, Education and Business Studies to my faith, is no less paradoxical. Admittedly it does get harder to find people who have the same mix of perspective.

This brings me back to my earlier point, I think. Fundamentalism arises in any discipline when the debate becomes incestuous. More so when people claim supremacy for their discipline. The inclusion of multiple disciplines, intelligences and faith pathways should add to life’s spice.

Go for it.

"Fundamentalism arises in any discipline when the debate becomes incestuous."

Isn't that precisely the problem with the incestuous nature of SDA faculty? There are those who finished their theological studies at institutions other than Andrews and are still suspect as not being "grounded in Adventist doctrine." When teachers, administrators and pastors have all drunk from the same (s)will (pun intended), new ideas are rarely presented and discussed outside the rare confines of the faculty lounge. This is, in effect, patting the heads of the parishoners and treating them as children who are there only to be dispensed what the hierarchy has decided they should know.
Only in wide diversity will true knowledge flourish.

Aage

I do take your point on the contrast between being an Adventist incoming, and an Adventist outgoing, and I sense your disappointment.

From a different perspective, love is also letting go. Some of our own children make choices, this does not deflect our regard for them, but we have to let them be who they must be.

The fight to encapsulate in this context would be cultish.

Equally, many of our Adult relationships are circumstantial. Friendship follows the paths we choose, either by career, faith group, immigration or other. I have many friends who left home and now live in America. We have no animosty, little contact, they just moved.

We have recently begun a friendship ministry for our retirees in the UK and have been surprised by the interest shown by retirees who elected other pathways.

There are also those who choose other paths, who feel superior having done so. To be repeatedly smeared as a fundamentalist, is not endearing.

Another of Bull and Lockhart's ideas was about the Adventist revolving door and the sociological lift across generations.

Even if that were the sole effect - it's hardly a scandal.

I am much relieved that every one of us elects to attend a public place of worship, or declines. That is wonderful choice. None of us should take the other for granted.

I lived in Africa when you were at Newbold, sorry our paths didn't cross.

Elaine

I see you have a touch of British humour after all.
Maybe we'll get Spectrum to crack a smile!

Not sure about the trough - most of the people I know are a little more genuine, at least in intent.

But fair point:

From this distance I do find it disconcerting that individual Colleges are becoming proprietory about their school of thought. (In reputation if not fact)

The omens are not good!

Some great comments here!

We have all drunk from wells we did not dig. (Victor)

Equally, many of our Adult relationships are circumstantial. Friendship follows the paths we choose, either by career, faith group, immigration or other. I have many friends who left home and now live in America. We have no animosty, little contact, they just moved. (Victor)

"Fundamentalism arises in any discipline when the debate becomes incestuous." (Elaine)

Only in wide diversity will true knowledge flourish. (Elaine)

Elaine
I also run into this wrong-headed idea that we who have left, left the battlefield blooded and bitter. I know people who were treated badly and who rant whenever the subject of Adventism comes up but that was not my experience. I may be looking for my ghost, as I put it above, but there is no hurt to heal. The ten years I spent in the church were very good years. Coming from a working class background I might never have seen the inside of a university if I hadn't joined the SDA church, a fact I'll always be thankful for, as well as many other things. I left of my own accorded when I saw my motives maligned, my theological inquisitiveness condemned, and when--just as importantly--I realized that I was moving in a direction that would eventually take me entirely out of the SDA orbit ideologically.

Yaroslav Pelikan, the church historian, called the Reformation a tragic necessity. It would be a bit hyperbolic to call my decision to leave tragic, but it was necessary. I have moved on but I have not forgotten the world I once was part of, and it delights me to see how diverse and creative parts of it has become.

Some of us are too impatient to wait until the church catches up with its own change in doctrine; changes that only slowly evolve by simply ignoring emphasis on those that were once considered of primary importance.

In some ways, we have outgrown the church's official fundamental beliefs and embraced the wider Christian, and even other religions that have searched for meaning in life. There are many paths to God and none can claim to be the only true way.

Elaine, your comment about incestuous dbates is classic.

Hmm.

Some interesting ways of thinking.

This comes when one constructs a spiritual community on belief systems alone. Community is also about relationship and behavioural pattern.

Richard Rice recognised this in the book advertised on this site. (My comment on the 3B's is that it helps to think about them with a 3D mind rather than arrange them sequentially.)

Much of the angst in our outfit comes because we use the church to play surrogate politics. Power play is more significant in our fragmenation than variance in belief.
Hence all the conspiracy talk.

I am afraid this seems to have been installed in our tradition at an early stage. Early Adventists used their construction of the prophetic gift as a political football. (This is more an American phenomenon than other. The rest of us were more circumspect from the start, and less conflicted now.)

In my case, my biggest challenge having been trained in a Science discipline is to reconcile views on Origins. Changing Christian traditions wouldn't help me. Watching others fall out over issues I consider to be of marginal consequence gives me no joy. But I do take issue when it is presumed that because I refuse to get my knickers in twist over the battles chosen by various theologians, that I am less critical or reflective in my thinking and faith.

I very much doubt that members of any tradition buy the whole menu. Diners dont walk out of the restaurant because other choose a different desert.

I am not sure that a Scientist could speak of outgrowing his Science community. What does it mean to outgrow a faith group?
Growth gives us responsibility, not exclusivity.

In some ways, we have outgrown the church's official fundamental beliefs and embraced the wider Christian, and even other religions that have searched for meaning in life. There are many paths to God and none can claim to be the only true way.
Elaine

I'd like to expand on, but not necessarily counter, some of this.

I think it's pertinent that the Seventh-day Adventist church only officially articulated it's fundamental beliefs in 1980 and that the prelude acknowledges that even that formalised list will see constant revision. We saw this recently with the addition of another 'fundamental belief'.

I believe that the purposes for the inclusion of the latest 'belief', in providing an ecclesiastical corrective apparently needed to address a specific and localised problem, illustrate perhaps the best function such a formulation can fulfil. And yet I also feel there is a problem if indeed our best reasoned arguments cannot stem the rise of heterodox or even heretical beliefs and practices. That our way of dealing with such situations is to offer what could arguably be called the Adventist equivalent of a papal encyclical.

If we are not able to function as a church without a list of fundamental beliefs I believe the next best thing we can work to ensure is that such a list is not treated like a creed in and of itself. That such a document is recognised as the best we can come up with at one time and not approached or seen as a creed.

I appreciate Victors noting Richard Rices believing, behaving and belonging.

I'd also note that Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. That those of us who would argue that people of other faiths (including those who keep the law not having known it) can be saved would still hold that such salvation is from Christ. That I would not limit salvation to 'Christians' but that, yes, salvation is only and exclusively available through Christ.

Elaine, sorry about the hostile comments you received the other day. I really appreciate your activity within Spectrum discussions. Thank you!

Johnny

I think Richard put the 3B's in the reverse order that you suggest, which is why the saints got revved up.

I would add 3 more B's.
Being, Becoming and Beholding.

But the convenience of alliterative theology gets us into other kinds of bother. It's too clever by half.

Never-the-less I have had a lot of fun using my Chemical model building mind to explore the thing.

Victor

Re: Ideological exodus

"This comes when one constructs a spiritual community on belief systems alone." (Victor)

I could not agree more. And I will readily grant the validity of the syllogism you offer:

"But I do take issue when it is presumed that because I refuse to get my knickers in twist over the battles chosen by various theologians, that I am less critical or reflective in my thinking and faith."

Our sensibilities vary, our investments in ideology vary, the value we ascribe to community vary and our way of dealing with the constraints that any organized life imposes vary. It would be great if any one organized entity could encompass that kind of diversity but I fear that that will be limited to forums such as this one (if 'limited' is the right word to describe it).

Elaine:

Please forgive me if I've already told this story related to those like me all drinking from the same theological "(s)wills." Here goes:

Almost immediately after leaving Andrews University and starting my ministry as a youth pastor, I spoke with my conference president about the possibility of continuing my education in an ecumenical setting.

Although he would describe himself as a conservative SDA, his response was encouraging. "This makes sense to me," he said. "Let me take it up with the Union Conference Committee."

Some time later I received a telephone call asking me to visit him and the conference Secretary, the second in "command." I arrived at his office to a rather serious--almost somber-- situation.

"We have received word from the Union Conference Committee about you wanting to continue with your studies," the President said with the Secreatary literally standing by. "The answer is 'no,' you must not do this.'"

"Did the Union Conference Committee explain why it came to this conclusion?" I asked. "Yes, for two reasons," he replied. "First, you are much too young. Second, the school you want to attend is much too liberal."

"What counsel do you have for me?" I asked them both after a long pause. "Well," the President said, without even the slightest change in the expression of his face, "You should start your studies over there in the Fall. Just keep your church happy." And so I did and never looked back!

A postscript: The man who was the President of the Union Conference that turned down my request to continue my studies is now our next door neighbor. One wall separates his condo from ours! We are good friends!!

I shall always be grateful for that Conference President and to its Secreatary, and to the Senior Pastor under whom I started my ministry, for the opportunity they gave me to continue my studies in direct opposition to what their superiors had told them to do.

A malignancy took the life of my Senior Pastor, Elder Russell Rose. A car accident killed Elder Warren Heinz, the Conference Secretary. I believe, though I am not certain of this, that Elder Melvin Lukens, the Conference President, is also deceased. But these men in my memories will never die.

Thanks!

Dave

Aagen and Elaine

This is my first week-end as a blogger, promise!
A bit of light relief. I don't know the rules and
I'll soon have to concentrate on my job.

I have two children doing PG study in well known institutions. Let me be modest while proud.

They also feel in many respects that they have outgrown their roots. I can see why, I understand it and I accept it. We have cracking discussions about the things they study. They are becoming wiser by far than their flagging 'old man'. To date, our relationship is the best ever.

I too have moved on (in some respects) from the concrete sequential thinking and absolute models and crutches that were part of my becoming. I relish abstract thought.
The idea of an 11 dimensional universe really winds me up.

But as a former teacher I can't just walk out on those who have not or cannot make that leap. I have to contribute to making their world more meaningful.

The mind set of Western individualism is what makes certain parts of the world angry. It was evident in Sunday's political blog. To the billions of poor in this world, the attitude that says 'I am sophisticated beyond your problem','I sorted my self out, you sort yourself out' contributes to world conflict.

(I am not suggesting that this is your take)

For the mean time, I just have to do my bit and encourage my kids to 'ask not what their learning can do for them, but what their learning can do for others'. (With apologies to JFK).