After listening to both interviews, the one thing that struck me: the church has decided that "separate but equal" is their answer to the question of women's ordination. Also, because ordination requires the ability to work in any conference within the world, it is the culture of many countries that would prevent women from functioning as a minister. They are only commissioned, not ordained, and are kept on a short leash by the conference that commissioned or ordained them and are unavailable to function outside that boundary.

More than 50 years ago the U.S. Supreme Court dismissed "separate, but equal" as not being fully integrated. In the Adventist church, women are separate AND unequal. Equality means all the rights and privileges of one group must be extended to the other. Until the church catches up with the first world countries in recognizing women in this manner, it will only continue to lose its influence here.

It is a rather ridiculous argument to say that because of their plumbing, women cannot serve in all countries in the world. The same could be said for men: if they don't speak the language and are a Westerner, there is still some resentment by the indigenuous population. The church has allowed the third world countries to dictate social actions down to their level. How can we expect God to bless such actions when those countries do not accept those whose God has called them, and he makes no discrimination of gender when gifts are bestowed.

Ordination of Women - Brilliant Strategy

Ever since the days of the early church, elements in the church have advocated silence for women, using this text:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1 Corinthians 14:34

among others, as grounds.

In these progressive, modern times, many Christians are asking why women can't preach up front.

Some even accuse the Adventist church of moving too slowly to integrate women into the ministry.

These accusations lack merit.

The church has already taken the first step by rewriting the Bible.

In the new, Adventist bible, this passage is rendered as:

"As in our synagogues, women attending church should not shout and carry on as they do in pagan temples, but be quiet and listen as the law says, so as not to offend our Jewish believers". 1 Corinthians 14:34 (The Clear Word Bible)

The times change, so why shouldn't the Bible?

Some change advocates are impatient, and wonder why the full change can't come right away.

The answer is simple. Sudden changes in church can cause splits, which could easily halve the tithing base.

Its much better to make changes slowly, so that all move together.

Certainly rewriting the Bible is a significant first step in this direction.

With enlightened leaders like our church has, change towards having women in ministry with full credentials will move along as fast as the world church can handle this change.

Full Graphical Version:
http://adventistsnotcult.blogspot.com/2008/03/ordination-of-women-brilli...

"The answer is simple. Sudden changes in church can cause splits, which could easily halve the tithing base."

Take another look at the world church's tithe. From what Division does the largest amount come from? Is it not first world countries; the countries that are ready and eager for women's ordination? The NAD, according to the latest GC stats, shows that by far, the NAD is the largest support of revenue for world missions: we support to a large extent the third world, where the largest number of baptisms are.

By allowing those countries to dominate the world church on cultural changes, it has become the tail that is wagging the dog. If the GC had not allowed this to come to vote, but instituted it in the world areas that were ready and waiting for it, what would the countries objecting have to offer for their disapproval? Where is the power of the purse? No, the church should no rapaciously use its power to bludgeon the other countries, but neither should it allow those third world countries to dictate our lives; lives that have lived in the modern world too long to surrender to the inferiority and subjugation of women. This is the pattern followed in most of the third world countries: lower education of women, few rights of jobs and property, even their clothing must be ordered by men.

If this continues, where will the tithe come from in the future to propagate this decision? With the loss of funds already being experienced by local churches due to recession here in the U.S. and globally, there may soon be a drastic change. I, for one, am not waiting for that in my lifetime. More power to those who work for it.

Isn't it funny how a church can have the power to change people's lives for an eternity, change their manner of dress, diet, health habits and family relationships. Change animistic people to monotheists and unbelievers to believers. But we just can't manage to shake the subjugation of women out of them. The leadership claims that the world church cannot accept ordination of women and point their fingers at the very people who have accepted the most changes to their culture in the name of Seventh-day Adventism.

I grew up in the undeveloped world on an SDA mission in Angola, Africa. I went back just a few months ago and found the people to be far more tolerant than people give them credit for. The president of the SDA church in Angola is a black African who is married to a Caucasian Brazilian woman. A couple of decades ago this would be unthinkable to SDA's in Africa. But their relationship is not a problem with the people. I went to church with a tattoo on my arm and in jeans no less, but I was welcomed warmly.

The problem does not lie with the undeveloped world but with the church leadership in my opinion. It is their pastors and administrators who hold the majority of power in the church and they are the ones who decide to keep women in inferior positions.

Impressive, Carlitas,

Thanks for informing this discussion. While some people like to make an argument for a new "progressive imperialism," in fact, often folks around the world are in many cases more flexible and tolerant than the so-called developed nations.

As you note, this is due to a fear of change among traditionalist Adventist influencers and is often rooted in anxiety about their loss of power. If a woman was head of Michigan conference, would Samuel Koranteng-Pipim be telling young women to wear dresses and stay away from chocolate?

In fact, in this case, the social imposition comes from the traditional modernist and Westernized reading of scripture -- a boys-speak-for-God culture cloaked in conspiracy-grammatical theology.

http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article.php?id=145

Pipim's thesis is another reason that Adventists should be much more thoroughly grounded in moral philosophy that does not always come from the Bible. Relying on such questionable and ancient writings as the one and only source for all our actions, is destructive of using our reason that God gave us. No one, I say NO ONE, adheres to every instruction found in the Bible; it is always on a very selective basis: if it agrees with my a priori position, I will latch on to it for supporting reasons.

We should do right because it IS right, not be limited by what the Bible is interpreted as saying. Literal reading of the Bible is the premise of all Fundamentalists and the mindless acceptance of and obedience to their interpretation reduces to a minimum one's own need to think. The Bible SHOULD be under attack when it is the basis for such fundamentalist and literal interpretation. It truly "shackles the mind and enslaves the spirit."

For those who attempt to show that women should have no place in the pulpit or teaching of men, why do they not allow for slavery, which is delineated and accepted by Paul? Does slavery offend them while readily promoting second-class status for women? If, as the Bible says, the man is head and superior of the woman, does it not also say that slaves are the property of their masters?

Samuel Koranteng-Pipim and his work is quite an embarrassment to the church. Treat women with respect, honor humans for the dignity that God has given them, not mankind, and rebuke those who advocate otherwise--like Pipim and his ilk.

Elaine,
I feel as strongly convicted in the worthiness of Scripture to ground sound doctrine as I feel strongly that it's beyond tacky to make an enemies list in the footnotes of your book.