I wonder what Farah has to say about this:

Revelation 11:18
"The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great— and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Farah's site, WorldNetDaily posted this gem about a year ago - http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53327 If I were to describe what it says in this post, you'd think I was making it up. The scary thing is, WND is still influential.

Both Michaels,

A word study of phtheiro verb group and phthora noun group might be enlightening to "corruption, destroy".

Some Examples in Rev.11:18 and 19:2

Some Examples in Septuagint Gen.6:11,12 and Isa.24:5

Global Warming is not theologically impossible. It is happening now, Just ask Al Gore! The question is: Is Global Warming going to proceed to the termination of life on earth.

I don't know of any scientist who is assuming that scenario.

As I understand it. I live high on a hill 130 miles from the Atlantic coast. If I live to be 130 I will have water front property. Tom

Mike P.,

You seem to be implying that Rev.11:18 is referring to "global warming." What did "corrupt,destroy" relate to in
Gen.6:11,12 and Isa.24:5? Global Warming?

I do not deny that there are environmental problems in the world; however, I believe it is a stretch to say this means "global warming."

pat, that text would be about "fair trade" if that were the flavor of the month in the New York Times.

This sort of Christianity that takes its cues from the prevailing winds is quite unlike the "free-thinking" that this blog espouses.

Pat,

Honestly, the jury is out about global warming. It may be true that we're all going to die from flooding and they'll be growing oranges in Montana in February. It may also be true that it's a hyper-liberal theory from those people who think everybody should have small cars, small houses, and small bank accounts. Please don't pigeon-hole me on this. (This debate has been going on for centuries, and even Robert Frost talked about it in "Fire and Ice" in which he wrote the Dr. Seussian line "ice will suffice.")

I've heard enough evidence both ways to admit that I don't know whether or not it is happening. I don't know if Rev 18:11 is talking about global warming, nuclear weapons, or littering. I was responding to the overall tone of Farah's article which was that it was impossible for humans to have any influence over the state of the environment. On that point, he's wrong.

That is what I was responding to. (To say this correctly, "it is that to which I was responding," but that sounds stranger than ending with the word.)

There's a certain amount of vanity in wave after wave of sure Biblical knowledge. The waves go back even to the horizon. Bold statements made. All we have to do is read scripture and we know beyond a doubt, that some scenario can not happen because the Bible says... . I don't know who Joseph Farah is but he sounds like just another ripple. I hope nobody mistakes him for a tsunami.

Oh by the way, the picture on this post of Greenland's ice melting, is it supposed to demonstrate "Global Warming"? The picture could just as easily be of the normal summer thaws that have been cyclic for thousands (10s of thousands) of years.

Michael,

Don't feel your alone in using this text to support man made "global warming.” You are not the first and you won’t be the last. There have been several articles in the Review and as I recall to quick memory in a book by Tony Campolo and an article in Creation Care magazine among others.

By the way I've never heard of the guy or the website referenced.

As I have mentioned with Alex before (and I respect his opinions) I mentally have to break environmental problems down into the Macro and Micro.

1) Are there environmental problems in the world (Micro) i.e. toxic waste, unclean water, strip de-forestation, contaminated air etc...most certainly.

2) Is there global warming? Well our measurement systems seem to so indicate they say...but is the cause natural or manmade. (Macro)

3) Is there "man induced" global warming? I personally feel the jury is out.

4) If there is manmade global warming can the atmospheric circulation "systems" themselves take care of the problem? Likely yes to any proportion man might be contributing as a percent above natural CO2 rates.

I am thankful from MY perspective that I can leave all “macro” things “to big and wonderful” for me (and I personally believe for humanity to completely evaluate) to my Creator who made all things and by whom all things consist.

Just to clarify, I'm not using the text to support the idea that people have created global warming. It does seem that God has an interest in our stewardship of the earth, however, and that it's probably not a good idea to mess it up. (It all goes back to the idea of creation, etc.)

Interesting, I am surprised that many more are not using the apocalyptic scenarios in the Bible to prove that since the final destruction is in the language of heat, fire, meltdown, that global warming is aligned with it. It does fit.

As far as enviromental stewardship- amen. Less waste- amen. Long term thinking- amen. Brother's keeper- amen.

But for enviromentalists to become more effective, some hints:
1. Pessimistic apocalyptic messages wear thin.
2. Don't advocate for less activity and progress, but for more smart activity and even more radical/rapid progress to face this challenge. "Long term prosperity for all mankind" would be a good slogan. (or higher standard of living, whatever)
3. Careful not to advocate habitat for nonhumans as higher priority over habitat for humans.(clearing land)
4. CO2 happens to be the major nutrient for the plant kingdom. Don't overplay this as poison.
5. Be honest in bringing up negatives of every proposed solution as well as the positives- be credible. (i.e. Dead Zone in Gulf increased by fertilizer for corn ethanol, higher corn prices in third world countries because of corn diversion to fuel, etc.)

It does take both brains and sweat to love the earth as God's precious gift.

Good discussion. Here's a brief synopsis of how I currently view global warming, creation care and God's sovereignty:

1. God has the end in His control. He won't be surprised by global warming or nuclear war or any other human activity. He's big enough to fulfill prophecy and take His kids home just as He planned. (This is not intended to be commentary on process theology.)

2. God said creation "is good." He left us as stewards. I think He expects us to keep it good. I believe we're going to have to account for lifestyles of affluence and greed that have led to environmental degradation in the form of pollution which contributes to diseases and ecological destruction which results in specie extinctions. (I think we must take responsibility for extinctions resulting from loss of habitat, not from meteors.)

3. Environmental care is therefore necessary regardless of the causes of global warming.

4. God will keep his promise to Noah and the earth by not allowing the planet to be completely flooded.

5. Since I know of no climatologist who suggests that all landmass will be covered from melting ice, the Noahic Covenant has little or no bearing on the global warming debate.

6. While it is doubtful that Revelation 11:18 refers solely to global warming, climate change could still be included on the list of the things that upsets the Creator. I would also include all military, political or environmental actions that degrade soil and society. Other areas of social justice are certainly also to be included.

7. As students of the Good Book, we know a time of heat is coming (Revelation 16:8), though I don't think anyone can say for sure if this will be caused by solar activity, greenhouse gases, the finger of God or all of the above. I'm glad we're also given the promise in Revelation 7:16.

8. Let's admit there is much we do not yet understand about the Bible and our universe. Just like in every other controversial topic, we need to humbly listen to both sides of the scientific and theological debate. Making statements like "global warming is theologically impossible" smacks of hubris not humility. Thanks for taking that on, Michael.

Jared and I have written about this topic as well as many other issues including ethanol, vegetarianism and green business at the Adventist Environmental Advocacy blog. Check it out at www.adventist-environmental-advocacy.blogspot.com.

Peace, Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Visited your and Jared's site.

A similar passage to Rev.16:8 is in Joel 1:19,20. These are Judgment Motifs.

If you choose to believe in "manmade global warming" that's fine. I would suggest it is not a "biblical described entity."

Likewise if you choose to be a vegetarian that is also great but that also is not a biblical mandate and I would suggest it is "anti-biblical" if indicated it is a necessity for believers.1 Tim.4:2-6.

The interestng thing to me in the manmade global warming debate is "IF" the following EGW's quote is true, How will you tell if mankind or satan is controlling weather events as God allows in the future?

"Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields his creatures, and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what he has declared that he would, he will withdraw his blessings from the earth, and remove his protecting care from those who are rebelling against his law, and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others, and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.
While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hail-storms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." [ISA. 24:4, 5.] {GC88 589.3}

Please note also that Isa.24:4,5 was cited by me above strand post in regards to "corrupt,destroy" in the LXX.(defiled)

It might also be interesting to discuss and they "repented not to give Him glory" in Rev.16:9...may indicate that men loved creation and the created order more than Him (Rom.1:25)... The Creator of all things? Rev.14:7

Is either God or Satan controlling natural events? How is one to decide?

God is always in control of natural events. Agreed it might be/is difficult to determine what he is allowing Satan to do versus His direct action. We see satan in Job 1 with great allowed power and God related to Mt.Carmel activities as examples.
However... I see nowhere in the Bible that man is in control of or responsible for global "weather patterns."

How can one confidently say that God is in control if there are times it is turned over to Satan? How can anyone know when God "allows" Satan any powers? Believing in the literal story of Job raises many more questions that cannot be answered: the first is that God is very capricious; the second asks whether that was a one-time event or is it possibly actions that God still uses today?

Elaine,
If that is your biblical understanding that is ok with me. Either God controls nature and creation or He is subject to it. The God I know in scripture is not subject to nature.

Quite frankly we can not know when He allows or causes unless He chooses to tell us.

Pat,
Hola. Sure, vegetarianism is not mandated by the Bible. I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought it is. It does make sense though, aye? Like I've said, I just enjoy chicken tenders so much. The brain and taste-buds are not always in agreement.

And, yes, it is also my understanding that "manmade global warming" is not a "biblical described entity." But neither is tooth decay or heart disease, and I hope we're all taking action to preserve our health even though we don't know for sure that heart disease is the most pressing cause of death for us to avoid. I'm not sure if I'm saying that very well. What I mean is that I think it's in our best interest to care for the planet's health even if disregarding its well-being won't be the direct cause of the appocalypse.

About your "if" question. You got me; I have no idea. But even if it weren't true, I wouldn't have any idea. Or maybe I'm missing your point. Help me out. Either way it seems theoretical and not actionable, so maybe I'm missing what you're getting at. I can't even say if God caused my flat tire to teach me patience or to delay my arrival at 5th and Spruce so I won't get hit by the dump truck with bad brakes or if Satan is trying to discourage me or if life just happens. Since I can't answer that, I can't pretend to take on the question of who is controlling the weather in any given instance. But if humans can seed clouds, then maybe we can affect other things. Personally, I think we do.

Elaine,
As I see it at this point, God is in control of nature much the same way he's in control of each of our lives. It appears sovereign, but "loose." God gives us the freedom to make bad choices and feel pain, even pain from others' bad choices, and I think this extends to the planet.

This is at the heart of the "If God is good, why do bad things happen?" debate. And though I have views on this, I wouldn't pretend to have the theological chops to soothe the hurting soul. God's will, free choice, pain, sovereignty... I don't come close to having that all together. I just think we should take care of the planet like we take care of our bodies--planety health affect personal health.

Theologians will have to take on the other stuff. I'm comfortable with a lot of mystery.

Peace, Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your reply. The thinking involved to me of "veggie" to "save the planet" is like giving antibiotics because someone "may" have a bacteria.

Accurate diagnosis always preceeds sound treatment.

Or perhaps it is "create a problem so we can offer a solution."

By all means however get all the veggie supporters you can "freely" find and blessings...but veggie is not a biblical mandate.

As regards to this EGW quote, I feel it is consistent with biblical motifs. Nowhere in scripture do I see mankind creating a change in "GLOBAL WEATHER PATTERNS" or the ability to control it. God is not subject to nature...He created it and presides over it. Also, He certainly doesn't violate our "freedom" by doing so.

Tell the Nations, "Our Creator God Reigns."

Reminds me of my grandfather. In the 1960's he knew that man walking on the moon was theologically impossible. I don't remember his line of reasoning. There may have been no biblical basis at all. But for him it was a part of his faith. When it really happened he knew that it was a carefully acted hoax. He died in the 1970s knowing his theological understandings were still sound. I believe there are many scientific possibilities that will shake the theological impossibilities of some to the core. I am reminded of the meteor of a decade ago that showed signs of microscopic life (today this interpretation has fallen into disfavor). I recall a post on a forum much like this where someone made fun of the christian creationist perspective in light of the discovery. I had to wonder how this person thought that the news limited the belief in a creator. How small is our God and on what do we build our faith?