Thanks Loren,
I have relatives very into him. Sabbath dinner tomorrow should be very interesting :)

I don't know much about it myself but was just thinking it would be a good topic for Spectrum to address and here you are. Good job.

One thing I found kind of amusing in my brief search on the topic was how at least one person realized Knoll's dreams were from Satan (his words not mine.) Knoll dared to say that those giving tithe to the church should still follow up on how it is used by the church because the giver is still responsible. This is apparently in direct conflict with EGW who says to just give it to the church and then it is out of your hands. Maybe I'm just cynical but having church administrators judge which of those two pieces of advice is more in keeping with the will of God just might be a conflict of interest.

"If this phenomena occurs in other Protestant denominations, those who have their own "prophets" are equally vulnerable."

In the book "Under the Banner of Heaven", Jon Krakauer shows how the Mormons, who believe in continuing revelation, are prone to following those who say they have messages from God. In the case described in that book, a "message" from God led to the murder of a woman and her child. Although the fringe groups that spring from Adventism are more benign, there are common elements regarding the willingness to believe people who claim to be channeling messages from God. I do think it is because of the Adventist claims of prophetic guidance by EGW.

Frank,

It's impossible for me to know, for sure, not having known the man, whether he was manipulative, sincere, or deluded.

However, I can imagine a situation like this: Ernie's first dream, or dreams, really happened, and were honest. Telling people about them got an amazing response, and the word "prophet" started to be thrown around, and talk about a successor to EGW. Then the pressure was on to get more Divinely-inspired messages. And when the dreams didn't come, or weren't as meaningful as the first one, you begin to strengthen your position by a little innocent manipulation of the truth, which then grows. Money from true believers gets thrown into the mix, giving more incentive to create prophecies and prophetic situations. One day it becomes apparent that there are too many lies, and thing just won't work anymore.

But as I said, I really don't know. He may just be a scam artist, though I'd rather believe he started out with honest intentions.

Loren

Calling one's self a prophet is insufficient; only with a group of believers who are convinced that (s)he is a prophet does the label stick. Declaring a leader, just as a prophet, must be done by others. Self-titles are worthless.

Any group who previously believe in prophets and prophecy, are prime targets.

When our church began, it was in the middle of a great many self-proclaimed spokespeople for God, in the aftermath of the Great Dissappointment of 1844 and the backwash of the Great Awakening that preceded it. There was no shortage of those who made claims and offered evidences in order to get people to follow them.

Seventh-day Adventists accepted Ellen White's manifestations and visions on two accounts:

1. They had long experience in knowing they were dealing with a supernatural power being manifested through her ministry.

2. They carefully examined the Bible and discovered God did reserve the right to speak to His people through the prophetic gift of dreams and vision, and gave specific guidelines for idenifying those He would send from all false pretenders and self-deluded enthusiasts.

Ellen White didn't just fulfill the first qualification, but also the second.

She herself did not believe the gift she manifested was confined solely to her own ministry. In her first book, Early Writings, she cites several other dreams given to various persons with whom she was acquainted, and declared them to be from the same Source as her own.

One of those dreams by someone else pictured she and her husband, along with some of the other leading ministers of the new movement in a room filled with old fashioned oil-burning lamps. Those ministering moved from lamp to lamp, cleaning the soot from their glass chimneys and filling them with oil. As they were working, others entered the room with sacks of coal dust, and poured it on James and Ellen White, burying them. They did not retaliate, however. They got up, the soot fell away, and they calmly went about their work as before. The soot hadn't even soiled their clothing. The man who had the dream noted that while all who were trimming the lamps and pouring oil were engaged in the same work, James and Ellen White were more proficient at it and poured more oil. Ellen White in particular poured a great deal of oil into the lamps.

This non-Ellen White dream was endorsed by her. As such, it would reflect her view of her relationship to others and to the Spirit of Prophecy. The man who had the dream was moved by that Spirit, too. And the work she was doing was the same sort as the work others in the dream were also engaged in. It seems that the Spirit of Prophecy in Ellen White's work was a matter of degree, rather than an exclusive possession centered solely in her person, activities and writings.

This being the case, we need to be willing to consider those who rise up claiming to speak for God by the same criteria we used in evaluating her ministry. Are they fakers? Do they actually manifest a supernatural ability? Are their teachings consistently in agreement with those of the Bible, or after a time, do they begin to veer away? Do they pass the still valid tests of a true post-Biblical prophet of God that were used by our forebearers in examining Ellen White's ministry?

Practically-speaking, it may take some time before these matters work out fully enough for a decision to be made one way or another. To simply accept someone who claims a unique supernatural connection with God is a danger. To simply reject someone for those same reasons is the other, equal danger. Joel 2:P28, 29 points us to a time when there will be abundant valid manifestations of this sort among God's people prior to Jesus' return. Matthew 24:4, 23-27 and Revelation 16:12-14 warn us of the abundant false manifestations, some of which will be so close to what is genuine that only the yardstick of a thoroughly understood Bible will be able to separate one from another.

Let's be clear on this: Those of God's true people who go through what lies between us and the time Jesus returns will not simply have to deal with the matter of supernatural manifestations and claims in the person of other people around them, they will have to deal with manifistations of a supernatural character in their own lives. The Spirit of Prophecy is the possession of the entire people of God, not only in the writings produced by its inspiration through the work of Ellen White in our founding, but also in the life experience of those who will experience the Latter Rain. In our beginnings, one prophet was sufficient.

In the end, there will be many--young and old, men and women--who will be moved by the same Power and Spirit that moved Ellen White and the others she endorsed as being moved by the same Spirit that inspired her in her own day. We will need such help to complete the final preaching of the eternal gospel to the entire world. One prophet will not be enough. There will need to be many in many places, all moved by the same Spirit, and in the context of the greatly heightened supernatural manifestations from false sources. We will have to know God's Word well enough to evaluate properly what happens inside our own skins, as well as in judging the claims of those who may come to us claiming to be from God. This, Biblically-speaking, will be inescapable. I believe it is already heating up.

I see the Bible as the detector of true and false teaching and experience in such matters. I see Ellen White not only as a manifestation of the true, since her work is in agreement with its teachings and her life with its description of a true spokesperson for God, but also as a coach. She describes in some detail what the Spirit of God did in communicating with her in the course of her ministry. As such, she may be properly studied to understand the ways the Spirit may communicate with many when the Second Pentecost falls.

She, like the Bible, classes dreams with visions as valid avenues for God to communicate His will with His people still. She also gives specific instructions regarding such manifestations. She identifies three sources for such phenomenon:

1. Most dream (and visions, too, I would presume) arise from the ordinary processes of the subconscious mind's working. These need not be given any great heed.

2. Some dreams and visions can be given by Satan.

3. Other dreams and visions come from God.

How do we tell the difference? Ellen says dreams from God can be identified as such by who recieves them, the circumstances in which they are given, and how those circumstances work themselves out as the matter unfolds. Dreams from Satan would urge a course that, over time at least, veers from God's will as revealed in the Bible.

We can safely conclude that the Spirit of God will no more urge a person to do something God's Word forbids that the wind will blow a cloud through a mountain. That being the case, a daily, prayerful, and ongoing study of the Bible rather than a seeking of the supernatural manifestations coming from dreams and visions is very much in order. There is where our safety lies in passing between the threatening rocks of accepting false dreams and visions, and rejecting those that are valid.

This matter of dreams and visions is neither a green light, nor a red light, but rather a blinking yellow light. There is a valid passage here, but we need to slow down and look both ways for cross traffic before proceding through such an intersection. In the end, we should evaluate messages that come in dreams or visions in exactly the same way we would someone showing up at our door with a tract claiming it is God's truth. We should examine the evidence carefully in light of the Bible's teaching, and then accept what matches up, and reject what does not. This is true whether those dreams and visions are recieved by someone else, or by ourselves.

Well i just want to say iam so sad this about ernie had happpen i had a relationship with him because i had had dreams also and i actually belived in everything he had said and thought it was true because i read spirit of prophecy and matched it up and everything. But iam happy because now everyone who belive in these dreams where the ones who actually wanted to make a reform in there life and change there old ways and manifest a christian like form you know?!
BUT HOW THE BIBLE SAYS THE VERY ELECT WILL BE DECEIVE
we all should just pray for ourselves and us to keep striving to be among the 144k :} ! God bless you

Ron,
I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive. I think it is quite possible that someone could start out with good intentions and then begin to cut corners more and more for various psychological reasons that don't have to do with a premeditated, purposeful attempt to fool people. Yes, by making up some things, he was clearly attempting to fool but someone could do that for more sociopathic, con-man type reasons or more for weak character reasons like he was trying to give people what he thought they wanted and got caught up in the attention.

Usually the more sociopathic among us don't go down without even more manipulation, outrage and destruction along the way. Though goodness knows the psychologically needy have their own ways of leaving destruction in their wake. Remains to be seen.

Hi all,

I am very saddened about the news regarding Ernie. I read all the dreams, read all the arguments back and forth from many people, and could not find any really good argument that would proove they were not from God. But I think we did not do a great job evaluating all the tests of a true prophet. We were so stuck on the messages that we forgot it's not only the message, but what character does the person represent, or do the claims in the message come to pass also mather. There were many claims in those messages that just simply did not come to pass. About Shawn Boomstra, or Ernie crossing paths with Doug Batchlor, the list goes on and on...

Obviously the truth comes out just as God said it would, those things commited in darkness will come to light...

God bless all of you and Happy Sabbath!

Sounds a lot like early Joseph Smith. There are tons of stuff on the internet on Smith's early years. Tom

but this messenger didn’t win my vote, especially when she revealed that she was suffering a brain tumor—physiological changes to which organ can have unpredictable behavioral consequences.

Loren, the founder of SPECTRUM wrote in great detail about the trauma to Ellen's brain resulting in her being in a coma for 3 weeks. Ellen stated that "Every feature of my face seemed changed."

Disconfirmed Expectancy.

IOW, their belief was complete bunk. So, after being proven that the cherished, firm belief which caused them sell their farm and not store food for the winter was completely and utterly false, people experience a mental condition known as cognitive dissonance.

RIGHT! Now I get it. Jesus wasn't coming, he was moving his location in a building in the sky. Got it. Let's start a church to proclaim the true, really, REALLY TRUE TRUTH.

"Although the fringe groups that spring from Adventism ...."

Roger, Adventism IS a fringe group. When the rest of society hears about some quackery from an SDA related group they don't make the distinction that its a fringe group or offshoot from a "normal" group. Its perceived (and rightly so) as bizarre action from the fringe group of Adventists.

It is interesting that every new Adventist prophet has visions or dreams about things we used to hold dear, and want us to come back to: extreme, paranoid eschatological positions, what women are allowed to wear, the kind of music we use in church. When is God going to start talking to our prophets about all the millions of people who die of starvation, or wars that kill hundreds of thousands? Is God really more worried about lipstick than war? Sounds like it.

Exactly Loren,
There is a strong need among some that seems almost gnostic in flavor, to be special and different. It couldn't possibly be as easy as repenting and believing Jesus is your savior. No, salvation has to come only after possessing some special, secret, very hard to get at knowledge that is revealed only after long Bible and SOP study so you can tell the false prophets from the real. Those who put in all the hard work of gaining that knowledge will be saved and those who don't will be deceived, too bad.

Another question, along with God caring more about lipstick than starvation, is why do angels, talking to 21st century people, speak like the KJV Bible? Just wondering.

I heard about Ernie Knoll and his dreams about two years ago. They seemed interesting, but I saw nothing that warranted a firm decision for or against. Because of the following text, I felt it would be wrong to rush to judgment:

"Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies." 1 Thess. 5:19, 20 (NKJV). This is supremely important. There is far greater danger in denouncing something that might truly be of God--namely committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit--than in simply waiting, reserving judgment for a time, however long it might take.

Several times I was moved to write in defense of Brother Knoll against some people who did rush to judgment, using arguments that were clearly unbiblical and unreasonable--such as the nut who claimed that "angels never employ humor." But every time I disputed these irresponsible criticisms, I always stated I was not prepared to endorse Knoll's dreams myself.

Some months ago, in one of Knoll's dreams, some things were said about Steve Wohlberg and his ministry, that clearly seemed to be in error. Although Wohlberg was one of the people who put out some outrageously invalid arguments against Knoll and his dreams, the untrue things said by the "Herald" in Knoll's dreams about Wohlberg and his ministry caused me great concern. I spoke out about this. But still reserved final judgment; I for one do not expect prophets to be infallible.

Finally matters did come to unequivocable resolution, when Brother Knoll was caught in his hoaxes involving "Candace" and "The Great Commission Council." When I first read the alleged report of the latter several months ago, I objected that it was unacceptable for someone to claim to be affirming the gift of prophecy and yet refuse to give their name for any reason. It would amount to denying their Lord. I wrote to Knoll and told him it left him open to the charge he had written the report himself, and it would be better if he had not published it. I never heard back from him. Alas, it turned out that is exactly what the case was. This was proven when someone tracked down the IP addresses of certain suspect emails.

Brother Knoll was not found guilty of any doctrinal error. His statements that we are answerable to God for knowingly sending our tithe money to a conference treasury when we know the tithe money is not being properly used, are obviously true, and the claim some made that we can just send our money anyway and wash our hands of responsibility because "Ellen G. White said so," is patently absurd. God will not allow us to give our our conscience to anyone, not even to Sister White. She never said that the conference treasury is the only storehouse, and she herself sent her own tithe money and the tithe money entrusted to her by others to support workers in the southern work, when the conference would not support it. And even if you feel you have to send your tithe to a conference treasury, why not send it to a neighboring conference that is not misusing tithe money? Of course, this issue is truly the "hot rail" topic with many people, especially with some conference employees, who obviously have a vested interest.

I remain thankful I was not among those who showed themselves all too willing to despise prophesyings and risk quenching the Spirit. The negative spirit of the opposition some people showed demonstrates that they have spiritual problems just as bad as or worse than those of Brother Knoll. Their behavior indicates there is considerable danger to anyone in the church who may have genuine dream or visions. It is easy to see why the Lord has not given us more people with genuine messages from Him; He does not want His children to be abused.

This is something that is going to have to be changed in the church. The church must become more receptive to the Holy Spirit.

I believe the board of 4hispeople went a bit too far when they claimed his dreams were of the Devil, and they found evidence of mind control (Neural Linguistic Programming) in Knoll's dreams. First of all, NLP is more common in verbal communication, not in written form. And the only thing I can see that they could possibly be referring to was the fact that Knoll was very good in his descriptive skills, employing all the senses, just as good creative writing teachers urge their students to do. As for his dreams being of the Devil, let's not give the Devil too much credit. We humans are perfectly capable of making up things on our own. Satan may hve encouraged Knoll in following his course of dishonesty, but to say the dreams came directly from the Devil is unwarranted. My understanding is that Knoll admitted that he made up the dreams. Himself.

Some people who have learned they were deceived may be feeling embarassed, and that in turn may make them feel angry. But lashing out in retaliation with over-the-top charges serves no good purpose.

I believe that Brother Knoll still could have a good and useful career as a Christian fiction writer, like Ken Wade and June Strong, and I have told him so. He has shown good skills along that line. Of course, he might want to use a pseudonym among Adventists.

Jim, I'm baffled by how much speculative significance you've chosen to give to facial hair. It is as if the new standard is "By His beard ye shall know Him."

Given all you've said, and your close involvement, I understand why you might feel it so important to comment. I sympathize with that, though I would probably never have gone seeking your story.

*******

Sometimes our tradition can be a binary, almost dualist framework in which Michael-Christ and Lucifer-Satan are battling things out at every turn. What happens when one no longer accepts that premise?

I was made aware of Ernie Knoll during the summer of 2008 by a woman at church who was convinced Ernie's dreams were genuine, that he was genuine.

After reading his dreams, I was convinced he was not a prophet and that his dreams were not from God.

I know Linda Seckerman, the woman who used to proof read Ernie's dreams for him, because I lived in her home about 19 years ago. I was happy she finally determined Ernie was a fraud.

What I don't understand is how people who read the letters from Candace didn't realize Ernie was the author behind them as the writing style was identical.

I'm happy Ernie has finally been exposed. I can't believe it took this long for people to figure out Ernie was Candace.

What I am wondering is what he has done with all the money he received and if criminal charges will be pressed against him for fraud.

I am also of the opinion that Ernie did NOT have the dreams but made them up just like he made up Candace and the events that supposedly happened to her! Clearly he has a very inventive mind.

Ernie claims to have had a dream about the board members discussing that he was Candace. As we all know, people talk. There is a good possibility someone confided in someone who confided in another person and the information got back to Ernie.

Whatever the case may be, Becky is just as much to blame for going along with Ernie, knowing full well he was NOT what he was presenting himself as.

How were Becky and Ernie supporting themselves? From what I gathered, Becky quit her job. Could it be that the main reason she kept quiet was because of the realization the money would stop once Ernie was exposed for what he really was: A Con Artist?

If Becky were truly in a trusting relationship with Jesus, she would have trusted Him to deliver her from the situation. Instead, she went along with him until the bitter end! It appears to me her excuses are simply that. She is just as guilty as he is, in my opinion.

I do not know Becky Knoll, but I think, Karla, that you are being unnecessarily judgmental about her. You do not know for sure any of the things you say about her. What I heard was that she did not learn her husband was faking the dreams until a few days ago, and that when she did learn, she voluntarily and immediately went to the board of 4hispeople with what she knew. Admittedly, that too is only hearsay information. But it is no worse than your information.

People are still displaying entirely too much tendency to rush to judgment. Condemning someone does not make you better, and piling on when someone is down is not a proper Christian group activity.

I have aleady emailed Jim Pinkoski privately and told him that he appears to have written in anger, and it could get him in trouble. He has embarassed other people besides Ernie Knoll.

And Jesus is free to shave if He wants to. The Bible does not say it is forbidden to shave. The text probably being incompletely recalled is Lev. 21:5: "They shall not make any bald place on their heads, nor shall they shave the edges of their beards nor make any cuttings in their flesh." (NKJV) Notice the prohibition was against shaving "the edges" of the beard along with other grooming fashions. The reference is to imitating the style of the pagans in the way they sculpted their beards, hair, and whatever. It was equivalent to saying we should not shave our scalps bald except for a single knot on the top of the head, like Hari Krishnas. Being clean-shaven is not a sin.

Note that Joseph considered it proper to shave himself: "Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon: and he shaved himself, and changed his raiment, and came in unto Pharaoh." (Gen. 41:14)

Shaving or not shaving one's beard is a custom that seems to change from generation to generation. In the time of James White and Joseph Bates, many conservative Adventists felt that a man had to look like the Smith Brothers of coughdrop fame in order to be allowed into the pulpit. A few years ago, the opposite was true; most conservative brethren would be scandalized to see a minister with a beard. Today the strictures are easing up a little, but most ministers still think they have to shave.

If anyone has any criticism to make of Ernie Knoll and his dreams, let it at least be something real. And let's not indulge this Laodicean tendency to rush to judgment. We are ALL being called into judgment, and Jesus is our Judge. No one else.

This is for Elias Sanchez. Ernie Knoll wrote quite a few people this last week with this statement. He says the dreams were not from God, so please don't hang on until 2012:
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear One,

By now you may have heard or read that Candace was a hoax. I created “her” to try to deter some of the negative things that people were saying about the ministry and it went downhill from there. (Becky did not learn about it until a couple days ago.) The dreams were also not from God. I want to say I am truly sorry and want to ask for forgiveness. Becky wants to ask for your forgiveness as well that she was deceived.

We have repented of our sins and pray that healing will come to you and all those we have affected. On a positive note, we are glad that the Creeping Compromise book has gone out to many people.

If you have sent donations to us, we plan to pay it back if and when we are able.

In His mercy and gracious love…Ernie and Becky

P.S. We hope to get a public confession up on the 4 His People website very soon.

I think an official more direct broadly released statement from the Knolls would help. What I find a little disturbing is that on different forums and emails some people are suggesting that maybe one or more of the dreams are still valid or that somehow there is a conspiracy against Ernie and that the dreams are real still.

To put to rest all this I would suggest someone close to Ernie and Becky suggest to them that they EXPLAIN and WRITE UP exactly what happened and plainly state that it was ALL FALSE.

In the two emails from Becky and/or Ernie they mention things like "hey at least the Creeping Compromise book got out" or "we did it out of the best intentions to wake up the church" or "the board was mean to us" (I'm paraphrasing). In my mind the "woe is me" etc. should be left out and a more direct public statement that is broadly released along the lines of "Hey we were wrong and this was 100% of the devil and please church family we are sorry and repent for this and here's what happened so hopefully people don't get deceived again." (I know that won't happen as we're living in the end times but this might help SOME not be deceived by a future attack like this from the devil on God's people.)

I don't know what is more disturbing. That anyone with an ounce of common sense would give the slightest shred of credence to 'prophet' Ernie's babblings or that anyone with an ounce of common sense would think that distributing Joe Crew's literary vomit Creeping Copromise would be even remotely a 'good thing'.

Actually, the second premise is so outright horrific that I am gonna have to go with that one as worse...

Good grief people, get a life. I cannot believe we have folks in the church that are so easily sucked into this sort of bizarre, cultic thing.

The man is a FRUIT CAKE.

AndrewJ wrote:
--
To put to rest all this I would suggest someone close to Ernie and Becky suggest to them that they EXPLAIN and WRITE UP exactly what happened and plainly state that it was ALL FALSE.
--

So let me get this straight you want a known liar to explain plainly that he was lying in everything. No I don't think that will happen if you lie to make it seem that your prophecies are true and those against you are wrong there is not much chance that you are going to change and say that all the stuff I did was based upon lies.

I think that is why the Bible when speaking of false prophets says once you know they are false don't be afraid of them. In other words don't regard what they say as of any importance or truth. They simply cannot be trusted.

(Deu 18:22 NIV) If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Ron

Ron, Only suggesting that Ernie do that because he claims to have repented and is no longer telling lies. We'll see...

This has been an interesting experience. And necessary, obviously. God does not remove all stumbling blocks - but uses them for His good.

I agree with Ronald on most points. We are so quick to judge, causing much injury, and resulting in lost focus.

I read and believed the dreams - and went back and forth in my mind about some things myself (God never removes ALL doubt - then faith wouldn't be necessary). This was an opportunity to use spiritual muscle (prayer, Bible study & the SOP). As with Ronald, I didn't really feel like the nay sayers had solid enough arguments - however the Shawn Boonstra & Doug Batchelor, unresolved issue stayed in the back of my mind.

Nevertheless - the truth has come out. Whatever the details may be, and Becky and Ernie Knoll need our PRAYERS!! Especially Becky if she was not privy to what Ernie had been misleading her to believe, whatever the combination of truth/error. Can you imagine being the recipient of these types of dreams if they are from Satan? What torment he/they are now experiencing? The danger their marriage may be in? Wanting to go back to peaceful times and perhaps not being able to? "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." Matt 5:44

Let's remember we are in the time of the Shaking. It is our responsibility to do earnest pleading with God for understanding and guidance. He says we must seek Him with our whole hearts. It's way more about our connection to Christ more than anything - let's remember to be Christians first - do not be careless and indifferent in your walk with Him.

"I saw some, with strong faith and agonizing cries, pleading with God. Their countenances were pale and marked with deep anxiety, expressive of their internal struggle. Firmness and great earnestness was expressed in their countenances; large drops of perspiration fell from their foreheads. Now and then their faces would light up with the marks of God's approbation, and again the same solemn, earnest, anxious look would settle upon them.

"Evil angels crowded around, pressing darkness upon them to shut out Jesus from their view, that their eyes might be drawn to the darkness that surrounded them, and thus they be led to distrust God and murmur against Him. Their only safety was in keeping their eyes directed upward. Angels of God had charge over His people, and as the poisonous atmosphere of evil angels was pressed around these anxious ones, the heavenly angels were continually wafting their wings over them to scatter the thick darkness.

"As the praying ones continued their earnest cries, at times a ray of light from Jesus came to them, to encourage their hearts and light up their countenances. Some, I saw, did not participate in this work of agonizing and pleading. They seemed indifferent and careless. They were not resisting the darkness around them, and it shut them in like a thick cloud. The angels of God left these and went to the aid of the earnest, praying ones. I saw angels of God hasten to the assistance of all who were struggling with all their power to resist the evil angels and trying to help themselves by calling upon God with perseverance. But His angels left those who made no effort to help themselves, and I lost sight of them. (Early Writings, pg 270, by EGW)"

A great applicable sermon to listen to by W.D.Frazee "Relating to Other's Failures" http://www.wdfrazeesermons.com/wdfrazeesermons/news_and_projects/

God bless you all.

RD, surely in your church on Sunday you may occasionally read 1 Corinthians chapter 12, which teaches that the gifts of the Spirit are to be seen in the church, including the gift of prophecy. Can you point to anything like that in your church? Does God not care to talk to your church? Don't you feel that something is missing at the heart of your Christian experience? "...the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy." (Rev. 19:10; last part.)

Can you point to anything like that in your church? Does God not care to talk to your church?...it is one thing for your religion to be comfortable. It is another for it to be real.

*************************************************************

As if God can't speak to an assembled body of believers except through the writngs of EGW?? What about "...where two or three are gathered in my name, there I will be among them?" What about the church itself being filled with people who bear testimony to and of Jesus out of their love for him... what the proclamation of the gospel and all that accompanies it is all about?

And what about the many struggling and dying Adventist churches that hold to the redbooks but have nothing else but a dead form of worship, no warmth or fellowship of which to speak, no impact that they make upon their communities, and no vibrancy and joy over the grace of God and the salvation of Jesus? Would you think that they may be missing something as well...like the core of what the Christian experience is supposed to be?

I've seen my share of these churches in my neck of the Adventist woods and been in them. And according to one well known church growth expert, Adventism produces more small and struggling churches than any other denomination in North America. But, before we use the "difficulty" of our message as an excuse, it might be a good exercise to reflect on what other factors may contribute to such a state of affairs, from our organizational priorities, to our traditional Adventist doctrinal arrogance as displayed above.

I would say that it is a troubling state of affairs that sends people like RD to other fellowships in search of the "blessing of the gospel" as he/she put it. A journey that commences out of frustration over seeking but not finding it within the Adventism of his/her experience. I keep hearing it over and over.

Thanks...

Frank

Frank, I did not even mention Ellen G. White in my comments addressed to RD. She died in 1915. I would say she no longer qualifies as the Living Testimony, though she is properly known as a "modern prophet."

Our church expects new prophets. The Bible says the gift of prophecy is to remain in the church, and will greatly increase in the final confrontation between Good and Evil in the end of time. We expect a second Pentecost, a "Latter Rain" outpouring of the Holy Spirit even greater than that of the "Former Rain."

The website http://www.4hispeople.org/ lists several other SDAs who have received dreams or visions. This is just a few who have come forward. I know people who have been given dreams, mainly for their own edification. God still chooses to communicate with those of His people who are receptive. In fact, the Bible tells us that God communicates with all human beings in this way at one time or another:

"Indeed God speaks once, Or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, When sound sleep falls on men, While they slumber in their beds, Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction, That He may turn man aside from his conduct, And keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, And his life from passing over into Sheol." (Job 33:14-18; NASB)

Thus whatever their circumstances, God reaches out to everyone, and gives them whatever is essential for them to have a chance at accepting the salvation that Jesus has obtained for all humanity. (Note Romans 5:18: "...the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.")

Loren,

The Congregation of Yahweh was a group headed up by Brother Blake. Now there was a offshoot leader. Straight as an arrow, bearded, great wife, always modestly adorned. I became acquainted with him after his "congregation" had wound down. I had heard that when they had a camp meeting, women who planned to attend were scrutinized at the gate. If they were wearing slacks or "immodest" apparel, a paper dress of proper length was provided free of charge. "Proper length" was thought to be 9 inches from the floor, based on an EGW statement. Not sure if the story is true or not.

Interesting thing about Br. Blake is that he eventually returned to the fellowship of the SDA church and became a positive influence. To my knowledge, he was never really into any wacky or dangerous stuff. He took a rather strict and literal approach to the SOP and was very much focussed on the law. He was personally a gracious Christian man. I'm not sure that he was even a legalist. If he was, he was a good one.

Tom Van Asperen and his Fourth Angel's Ministry was another "offshoot" type group that had a positive influence on the lives on numerous people. Tom had an incredible knowledge of the SOP. When he preached, he kept a banker's box or two full of SOP books on a table, within easy reach. He knew page and paragraph and quoted or read from them freely during his sermon.

There was a power which attended his preaching that had a transformative effect on the lives of some who listened.

Good News Unlimited was an offshoot. The seminars Des conducted just before returning to Australia were totally Christ focussed. He brought amazing, beautiful, spiritual truths out of Scripture, calculated to uplift and glorify Jesus Christ.

Offshoots are not always bad. Some, such as Good News Unlimited, have much more to offer people that mainstream Adventism. Think about it. Who would you rather listen to over the course of a weekend, Des Ford or Doug Batchelor?

RD (and others), the Seventh-day Adventist church as it may now appear, especially to some people, is not the way it will come to appear very soon. I choose to stand with it, because I wish to be a part of the church's destiny.

Although many of us SDAs refer to our church as "the Remnant Church," this is because more than any other religious group, we preserve the original teachings of the Bible, making us the closest spiritual heirs of the Apostolic church. However, it must also be acknowledged that the "Church Triumphant" has not yet appeared. The church needs to be brought to spiritual maturity. For this to occur, sad to say, there must come a serious divide in the SDA church--which is already beginning--that will eventually culminate in what Ellen G. White called "the Shaking."

In my approach to the interpretation of Bible prophecy, in which I interpret all symbols strictly and exclusively by the way the Bible itself defines these symbols (because all the prophecies of the Bible are inspired by One Divine Mind), I have been led to the conclusion that the seven trumpets (Rev. 8-11) are yet future, delineating key events in the final conflict. I have come to the conclusion that the fourth trumpet (Rev. 8:12, 13) is a prophecy of the Shaking in the remnant church, the very Shaking Ellen G. White wrote about. Notice that in the fourth trumpet, all the prophetic symbols in Revelation 12:1 are present, except for the woman herself. This is because as the Shaking begins, the Church Triumphant has not yet been disclosed to view.

Notice the key events of the Shaking in the church: The sun is darkened. This is a reference to the sun of the light of the righteousness of Christ (see Mal. 4:2) in the gospel being obscured, and tells us that the gospel is one of the principle things that will be subverted during the Shaking. The moon is used in the Bible as a symbol for that which is the Faithful Witness to God (see Psa. 89:37), the Bible or the sound doctrines of the Bible. These are the things on which the woman (the community of faithful believers through the ages) stands upon in Rev. 12:1. For this to be obscured means that confidence in the Bible will be attacked, perhaps by the likes of higher criticism, which presumes to place human judgment above the Word of God, and thus all the sound doctrines of Scripture will be called into question.

I have come to view Desmond Ford as one of the principal people who are working to obscure the gospel, and using his version of the gospel--which seems so wonderful to people used to the opression of legalistic views--to call into question the foundation doctrines of the church, including the true significance of Daniel 8:14, the Investigative Judgment, and the second apartment ministry of Christ as Our High Priest in Heaven. The church absolutely cannot stand if these core doctrines are discarded or minimized (which would amount to the same thing).

For a third of the stars to be darkened means that a third of the thought-leaders of the church (see Rev. 1:20; 2:1) will become confused, embrace error, and apostatize from the faith. This is in harmony with Ellen G. White's prediction concerning our church's brightest lights, that "Many a star that we have admired for its brilliance will then go out in darkness." (RH, November 20, 1913 par. 14) But the encouraging thing is that one-third is a minority. The prophecy of the fourth trumpet indicates that two-thirds will remain faithful.

Further encouragement comes from the prophecy of the fourth trumpet in that the result of the Shaking appears to be the preparation of a community of people ready and divinely empowered to give the final warning messages to the world. I would submit that an angel proclaiming "Woe" three times (Rev. 8:13) as final warning messages to all the world is conceptually equivalent to the three angels of Revelation 14:6-12 giving their final warning messages to the world.

When I first came to this understanding of the seven trumpets, and the fourth trumpet in particular, some 25 years ago, I did not consider myself an SDA, nor believe in the legitimacy of Ellen G. White as a prophet, because of the influence of Robert Brinsmead and Desmond Ford (at the time, the two of them taught the same things). But after following a strictly Biblical approach to interpreting the prophecy of the seven trumpets--especially the fourth--I came to see that the SDA church is the movement of destiny and I should stand with it, so I returned to the church. My confidence in Ellen G. White was also restored, because I saw in the events of the seven trumpets the same events of the final conflict Ellen G. White had predicted, and in the same order.

This includes many great calamities (natural as well as man-made) assaulting the world and radicalizing the people to accept draconian laws and measures to restore peace and safety (the first trumpet), the restoration of the "Holy Roman Empire" in principle as the Papal hierarchical authority becomes again immersed in the political affairs of Europe (the second trumpet), the rise of a similar false revival and church-state amalgamation in the New World (the third trumpet), the Shaking in the remnant church (the fourth trumpet), the appearance of Satanic manifestation of supernatural power in the fallen churches that blaspheme the Holy Spirit by denouncing the Latter Rain that empowers God's faithful witnesses as being of the Devil--which is what led to the Satanic agencies being released from "the Bottomless Pit" of divine restraint imposed on the devils (the fifth trumpet), the further freeing of the devils from restraint so that they can appear openly, impersonating "saints" of the churches and departed loved ones, who then fire up their followers to issue and carry out a universal death decree (Rev. 9:15) and wage a final holocaust against the righteous (the sixth trumpet), and the final deliverance of God's people in the seventh trumpet.

I was interested to notice Rev. 11:11, 12. With the blinders of long-held traditional views removed, the text most obviously is describing the ascension of the saints at the Second Coming of Christ. And of particular interest were the words: "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither." In the past, SDAs have believed that at the time of the deliverance of the saints, God would speak out of heaven and declare the day and hour of Christ's coming--only because Ellen G. White said so. But here in Rev. 11:12 is the same message! Note that only God could invite someone to come up into Heaven, and any proper invitation must include the day and hour of the appointment!

Even though I had to set aside the way that Ellen G. White followed Uriah Smith's view of Revelation 11 in some of her writings, nonetheless these things I saw in the truly Biblical interpretation of the seven trumpets, RESTORED my confidence in the prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White. Clearly, the same Spirit that had inspired Revelation, had inspired Ellen G. White!

If anyone is interested in a further discussion of what I am describing as a truly Biblical interpretation of the prophecy of the seven trumpets, I have written a book about it. Included in it are my reasons for concluding that the vision in Rev. 4-5 refers to the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7, and then from that my conclusion that the seven seals must depict events that apply to history AFTER 1844 (and I show from history how well the prophecies do apply from then up to and including the present). Also included in the book are my views of Daniel 11:40-12:13, showing how all these prophecies apply to the time of the end--as the text tells us several times explicitly. My recently published book is titled, "Genuine New Light from Revelation and Daniel." It is available from the publisher, Teach Services (TeachSevices.com), and from Amazon.com.

I would be happy to engage in discussion about it with anyone who wishes to. I believe this is very important to the church, and will contribute to a revival in the church, which Ellen G. White promised would result when new light comes from Revelation and Daniel. (See TM 113; R&H August 17, 1897, para. 19.)

Ron, that's a profound observation. As long as messages are tested by what we already believe, we'll never get anything new. Again, the question I asked at the end of the piece: how could God get through to us if He wanted to give us a new revelation? Clearly post-modern skepticism is one deterrent. But you point out another: that those who want to hear God's prophetic voice will only accept it if it agrees with what they already know!

Loren

But Ron, Loren, that is one of the main things that kept me from feeling I could endorse Ernie Knoll's dreams, and I mentioned this to many people, including Brother Knoll himself: there was nothing new in his dreams. No new light. Anyone familiar with Sister White's writings (and possessing sufficient literary skill) could have written them.

Nor were there any clear predictions that could be tested by ensuing events. Now, I do not know if it was specifically in response to what I complained about, but shortly after that Brother Knoll came out with his vaguely-worded prediction in 2008 that meteorites were about to bombard one or more major cities. Even this was not entirely new, as Ernie himself mentioned Ellen G. White's visions of "balls of fire" descending on mansions. But he quoted "the Herald" as allegedly saying "As June is a short month, so is time. Prepare for the wrath of God." Well, now it is more than a year later. The angels still seem to be intercepting the potential city-smashers.

As you see by my discussion of my studies in Revelation and Daniel which led to the writing of my book, I do believe I have some Biblically informed idea of what real new light is, or should be.

And Ron, my interpretations do diverge fairly substantially from traditional SDA expositions of Revelation 4-11 and Daniel 11:40-12:13. I repeat: at the time I came up with my understanding of the seven trumpets (which is where I started), I had turned away from Adventism and Sister White, and absolutely did not expect to come up with a reaffirmation of SDA eschatology. But I was impressed one afternoon by the Lord that if I would follow strictly the principle of allowing the Bible to interpret all its own symbols, letting the chips fall where they may, He would guide me into a right understanding of the propecy of the seven trumpets (I had never been satisfied with the traditional Uriah Smith view even as a theology major at Andrews many years ago). That is how the Lord led me back into the SDA church, and restored my confidence in Sister White.

My application of Rev. 4-5 to the Judgment has long been a minority view in Adventism, but it deserves to become the majority view, since it is so clearly warranted, and the previous majority view, that it applies to the Inauguration of Christ at Pentecost just after His Ascension, is flat out contradicted by Rev. 4:1, and the fact that Revelation was written some 60 years after Christ's Ascension.

My application of the seals is entirely new; I don't know of anyone else who has taken the logical implication of the book with the seals being opened in the Judgment as far as I have. Or shown how the prophecies fit history after 1844.

My application of the seven trumpets to the final conflict is not necessarily the first time this has been done among SDAs either, but I believe I have made the best sense with it, interpreting every symbol according to Biblical definitions. I think my argument is a good one, that no one seems to have noticed before, based on the vignette of the angel with the censer coming after the angels were given their trumpets but before they sounded, that it indicates the prophecies take place throughout the final conflict. If the vignette had taken place before the trumpets were given to the angels, it would suggest that the seven trumpets take place after the close of Christ's ministry. If the vignette had taken place after the angels sound their trumpets, it would indicate the prophecies take place prior to the closing phase of Christ's Second Apartment ministry.

My application of Daniel 11:40-45 to the time of the end (like the text explicitly says!) is not unique with me, though I give more Biblically consistent detail. James White had essentially the same view of the King of the North.

A few others besides me have made end-time application of Daniel 12 (which the text also explicitly says several times applies to the time of the end), and made a stab at interpreting the time prophecies in that light. I have to say that I believe I have succeeded in making completely consistent sense of the whole thing. Once you see it, you realize it could not be any other way. It is really not that hard, once you resolve to go strictly by what the text actually says, going by the Bible's own consistent definitions of symbols, and not trying to bend anything to make it fit traditional views.

There has been considerable discussion of the themes in my book and (mostly) related issues, appearing in the ClubAdventist Forum. The thread so far has gone to 18 pages.

I mention it here because some may be interested in my book, and because this establishes where I, at least, am coming from in the discussion of Adventism's present reality vs. its future ideal, and why I believe we will get from the former to the latter.

[edited to give exact "As June is a short month" quote -- Thanks Mister Anonymous for the link to a pdf file of Ernie Knoll's dreams.]

The dreams and creeping compromise are here.

http://www.4hispeople.freewebpages.org/

Thanks Mister Anonymous for speaking up, although
you are "speaking anonymously". ;-}

Yes, I also have known Ernie's dreams were from God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit because from studying the types and symbols in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy I am able to interpret those dreams and the dreams of EGW...and the Dreams and Visions written in Scripture of Truth.
Daniel 2:28,30 The secret things that are to be interpreted only in the "Latter Days"

"But as for me/Daniel, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but FOR THEIR SAKES THAT SHALL MAKE KNOWN THE INTERPRETATION to the King and that thou mightest know/understand the thoughts of thy heart."

The dreams are rebukes to Ernie personally, and to God's people for their blindness and lack of knowledge of the Word of God, but the dreams are also full of His Great Mercy and understanding of our great ignorance in the midst of all this knowledge -"confusion of faces" Daniel 9:7. It is against the law of Moses to "curse the deaf" and "put a stumbling block before the blind", LOL. Yes, "let EVERY man be found a liar (and outside the City of God) and God alone be True". Romans 3:4

"He who believes lying vanities forsakes
his own mercy." Jonah 2:8

Since all of these years we have failed to
believe the Truth that Christ could produce a
Living Witness...those who would never have to
taste of death, He allows us to believe a lie and
continue to worship Him falsely and keep eating His
flesh and drinking His blood "unworthily" and die.

God desires to correct and then prepare those who are to have a part in "cleansing the sanctuary" at the end of time...His Elect High Priests...

Remember the ministry of the priests/Levites were for
the purpose of receiving all the wrath so that it
would NOT fall on the people.

It is the "work" of the Priests of Christ "after the order of Melchizedek" to prepare for the wrath of entering and cleansing the heavenly sanctuary on The Great Day of Atonement. Lev. 16 and according to Daniel 8:14; Isaiah 29; SEE BC VOL 7:933 Comments on Hebrews 10:19-21..."Entering into the heavenly sanctuary with Christ and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling." He only needs "one person working in right lines" many are called but few are chosen as it is not an easy assignment.

It is time for Him to speak to us "mouth to mouth" as He did with Moses, and not in visions and dreams. Numbers 12:4-9 That means we are about to meet the Father face to face and we are to prepare for that "wrath"/mercy, by knowing what is Written. John 16:23-32

He is getting ready to make all the crooked things straight, and will no longer "hide His flesh from us".

That is why John the Baptist asked the Levites in his day:
"Who WARNED you to flee from the wrath to come?" As High Priests at the end of time (which is ACTUALLY the beginning of Eternity)....we, as priests, are to MEET the "WRATH" of God face to face as did Moses.

That is the reason the "leopard-like beast" in Ernie's first dream was preventing him from going into that cave (to hide from the wrath of the Lamb, and the Face of God the Father)...Rev. 6:15-17....the Priests are supposed to be STANDING between the dead and the living as did Moses in his Day...(not falling on their faces to the ground)...The True Ministers of the Reconciliation for the Sin of the World 2Cor 5:17-21 ("in Christ's stead be ye reconciled to the Father").

Yes "prepare for the wrath of God indeed"....

Early Writings Pg.64 She was shown these very principles in relation to JUNE, the MARK OF THE BEAST, AND THE WRATH OF GOD, AND THE END OF TIME and THE PREPARATION FOR OUR FINAL WORK (CLEANSING THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY)....

"As June is a short month, so is time (a short month)
Prepare for the wrath of God."
(Notice that this was an audible voice speaking to Ernie...NOT A DREAM!)

See Early Writings p64 "Mark of the Beast" JUNE 27, 1850
"Time is almost finished..."
"Will ye shun the 7 last plagues??? Will ye go to glory and enjoy all that God has prepared for those who love Him and are willing to suffer (the 7 last plagues) for His sake? If so, ye must die (to all your erroneous ideas of God) that ye may LIVE. GET READY, GET READY, GET READY. Ye must have a greater preparation than ye now have, for The Day of the Lord cometh...." p.66

Oh, dear we must suffer the 7 last plagues??? Yes, that 75 lb. hail stone of hard truth is getting ready to drop on our heads and bust up the furrows of our flint-like minds. When we finally hear It we will laugh at ourselves for not "seeing" it all along. How did we miss the gentle early rain and the abundance of the "latter rain"?? And so He gives it to us in hard, dark sayings instead. Psalms 139 We cannot hide from His presence even "if we go to hell"...He leads us by the hand there also....just as he took Lot by the hand and lead him out of Sodom.

If we are not prepared to take back our sins and the "sin of the world" and place them on the head of the Live Goat, then this High Priest Ministry is not our calling at this time. Not everyone is called to this work...only a little company standing in the Light. (See Great Controversy 420-422) Michael stands up and leaves the sanctuary BECAUSE we have completed that work. It is Written....and so it is.

Please notice the purpose of the Dreams are
for God's people to WAKE UP and comprehend the
Word of God. Read Isaiah 29..."it is time to quit
adding year to year" be able to interpret the visions and dreams recorded in the Daniel and the Revelation and walk in them, fulfill them. Daniel 9:24..."make an end of sins and seal up the vision and prophecy and anoint the Most Holy"

Take the rebuke that was never comprehended in the
Mail Room dream..."sending out books by that other author"

The Mail Room Dream:

The workers were sending out the Bible and All the Sp. of
Prophecy writings, "NOT a book by that other author" ...
Cruse.... "Creeping Compromise" which Ernie's ministry
has been sending out. Interesting that in Ernie's
dream he never offered to help the workers stuff the envelopes. LOL!

Funny and yet sad. We are supposed to be able to laugh at ourselves during this time, when we see ourselves blind and deaf....as we really are and UNABLE TO RECOGNIZE JESUS.

EGW stated that we should print up the book of Daniel and The Revelation and send them out with little or no comments...like the leaves of autumn. I do not believe that Elder Cruse ever claimed to have the Gift of the Spirit of Prophecy.

I must tell you that a Catholic friend of mine told me a
vision that she had which is the follow up to Ernie's
Mail Room dream. The mail truck was at her door
and "the vision ended". When God gathers us together I will share the whole vision with you and the interpretation of it. Amazing, simply amazing! If we do not "learn" our "Message" quickly the stones will cry out. The Message to the Church has always been different than the message to the "Gentiles".

"Behold the Live Goat that blots out the sin of the world and still lives without tasting death."

Did Jesus produce a "live goat" in His day? Yes, He certainly did which proves that His death was the Great Atonement for the whole world. When the Israel of the flesh beholds the live goat they will know that Jesus was, is, and will always be their True Messiah.

And "the times of the Gentiles" are about to be fulfilled this "harvest" year and Israel of the flesh grafted back into the Olive Tree/Christ. If there was any time to be noble Bereans, it is TODAY.

We are supposed to be declaring the Sabbath more fully and that is why at the end of the Sabbath/Sunday dream the women states:....
"And continue".

She is waiting for him/Ernie to interpret the sabbath more fully. We are also to know in detail what the Mark of the Beast really is. Some of us are no more clear on these things than they were back in the 1800's. What really happened in 1843 and after wards that "the man with the dirt brush" had to clean out all the rubbish/error? And WHO is that Man with the dirt brush anyway?

We know nothing YET as we ought to know it. 1Cor. 8:2,3
"Let us behold wondrous things out of Thy Law; above all that we ask or think!"

So, "Mister Anonymous", I will rebuke you for not sharing your visions all these years and hiding your name. You are not a hero standing for God. Poor Ernie is taking all the abuse for sharing what God has shown him just as did E.G. White. It is time for us who possess these gifts of the Holy Spirit to stand for Jesus...the living for the dead. And so today I am standing before you in my own name and stating my gift from God (The gift of interpretation)and rebuking myself for not coming forward sooner also.

"A living dog is better than a dead Lion (of Judah)." Eccl.9:4

Luke 16:31

"And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me shall NEVER DIE.
Believest thou this?" John 11:26

In the Name of the Father of Lights, Thunder, and Mercy,

Meg
(short for Margaret...a Pearl)

Concerning the mark of the beast, is it me that just recognizes the real meaning behind it, or are there others and I am just missing them ?
Here is my understanding of the mark of the beast, as being lead by the Holy Spirit (I have been shown/taught the Sunday view by SDA theologians)

First, God's seal is of course accepting Jesus, and following Him, which includes the fourth commandment, which is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. God's perfect number is 777.

Satan, however, wants you to trample upon, work on, ignore, etc, the sabbath, and he places his MARK on the sabbath, by renumbering it to 6, by making the days of the week staring out on Monday, and ending up on Sunday. Satan could care less if you goto church on Sunday or not, all he is concerned about is that you ignore the sabbath, so he can get you marked with the number 666.

Mister Anonymous

Kathleen,
So obviously wrong? You've got to be kidding me. If he is so obviously wrong, better start tossing out EGW and while you are at it go ahead and toss out the KJV Bible.

Mister Anonymous

Meg,
You are way ahead and above a level or two or three above me on more than one topic, it will take some studying on my part to get there.
I am most certainly glad for your input, it is getting me to see things in a better light and a better understanding of Jesus.
Blessings in Jesus,

Mister Anonymous

Meg,
You know when I first became truely aquainted with the SDA church (I had learned of the church when I was really young, but just a little bit), I had reservations about EGW, but I kept those to myself. As I attended meetings more, read my Bible more, read Steps to Christ, and prayed and prayed, and read the Great Controversy, I was convicted without a shadow of doubt that EGW was legit.
So, there may be others that have questions about EK, but if I was them, I would keep it to myself, and study and pray, and ask for guidance. And we know if we ask in His name, He will provide!
And on another point, if it is time for God to make the things that are crooked into straight things, He has a way to go with me, that is for sure. And if I am one of those that are "they", I truely have a ways to go.
Mister Anonymous

The writings of EGW are still applicable today, for the most part. Some are dated, and the church needs to cope with that (some do and some don't). The year 2012 as seen in the dreams by Ernie Knoll, is a date that EK is told not to focus on by his attending angel. In other words, no date setting, which we know is Biblical. But sure as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, Jesus is coming back !

Meg...

When you begin to learn to read the Bible in context rather than stringing together prooftexts often with no logical connection, then we could have a substantive and fruitful dialogue. Until then, I wish you God's blessing.

Thanks...

Frank

Yes, Mister Anon,

We have a way to go for all to be made straight and we will have eternity to learn all those things. That is why at the end of time the final events will be rapid and we will be amazed at the simplicity of the demonstration of His love. Enough has been written and spoken to fill the earth and action is what is coming now.

Better for SDA's now to get the message through Jones and Waggoner...."Glad Tidings" , and "Lessons on FAith" are awesome.

Yes we should be looking for the "living Spirit of Prophecy in our midst" and until then God is using the Words of the Dead. Except for John who He has kept alive all this time. Poor guy. John 21:23

"What is it to you if I will make him tarry till I come?"

Hmmmm. Gives Hab. 2 new meaning. Waiting 2,000 years to make the vision plain. Well.

"No more shall ye teach your neighbor and brother saying;
'know the Lord', for all shall know me from the least to the greatest."

Wow, we won't be teaching anyone in that day. How amazing is that New Covenant? The New Covenant has to do with Inheritance laws and all cultures worldwide know the laws of inheritance.

"Look and Live." That is what Ernie saw in his dream of Heaven. People going single file into the kingdom of God. Each person under their OWN vine and fig tree. They are still worshiping falsely but God is teaching them to worship Him in spirit and in Truth, it is a progressive experience. They can come and go as they please and when the Truth gets too High, they come down...go in and out. Love NEVER insists on It's own way.

Christ works on addition (we can only add ourselves to the kingdom) and the Father's work is multiplication.

Note the Scripture speaks of:

His vine and his fig tree...

Her vine and her fig tree...
and
then
THE Vine and THE fig tree...

When the people come in they are worshiping their own "god" based on their preconceived ideas, under their own vine and fig tree, but the levels are progressive just as Paul stated he was taken up to the Third Heaven.

We have the blood & water throne of Christ at the cross, and a literal death and resurrection. All must enter through that narrow way, but there are those who have sweat blood and gone in before to those higher "thrones" once they were cast down/set up.

Her throne... of blood and water...born again of a woman. Blood and water but no death, just a new birth.

And the Great WHITE throne judgment where our sins are finally blotted out....though they be red as crimson they shall be white as snow. (Note that all the DEAD (the resurrected dead and the walking dead/living are STANDING there, small and great.)

Wow, how does He make our past actions white as snow?

Hint...no forgiveness there...as He never imputed them unto us in the first place. That is the simple view but it goes deeper than that. Joshua 24:19; Ex. 23:20,21

"Beware of the Angel that I send to go before you, he will NOT pardon your transgressions, for My name is in Him..."

Well, who is that God/Angel? The one that does not pardon our transgressions. Do you know him? He is the same one who "justifies the ungodly". Romans 4:8 Simple enough to justify those who do the law...they are self justified.

Christ in us the hope of glory. We must know the difference in the forgiveness of our sins and the blotting them out totally. He sweat blood for a good reason in Gethsemane and changed his mind there...take this cup from me...all things are possible with you Father. He did not see how anyone could be delivered from the confusion of the death of Son the Living God, because it was not according to the law and the testimony regarding "legal" sacrifices. Heb.8:4

"Cursed is anyone who does not continue in all things written in the law to do them."

Read Lev. 22. A sacrifice by the hand of a heathen/Roman was unacceptable for a Jew. The sacrifice could not have a part lacking (be circumcised) or cut or bruised, as was Jesus when they placed him on the cross. It could not have died of itself. The Passover lamb was to be a lamb of the first year, NOT A FIRST BORN...they were holy to the Lord Exodus 13:2...well Jesus was 33. (No wonder Herod tried to kill him when he was an infant. That would have fit the type almost perfectly if He had not been circumcised the 8th day and the first born of Mary.) The only ones who had to worry about dying on the night of the Passover were the first born.

So everything written in the law was against His death, especially at Passover, but it pleased the Father to discipline him by bruising him and by His stripes....not his death, we are healed.

Did you ever wonder who would be the LAST of the dead to be judged with people dying all the time? When the last of the dead are judged then we move to the judgment FOR the living. Until you take hold of that Lamb slain from the foundation of the world you cannot move into the Judgment for the living. He is the "last" of the dead to be judged.

The first shall be last.

Well I've done enough confusion damage for one day. LOL!

Good thing this will get really simple in the end.

In Christ and Him crucified in us,
Meg

Ernie's ex true believers keep insisting they were fooled by Ernie's demon. I suppose that is easier than admitting they were gullible, and fell for a con man. Being fooled by a devil makes it more respectable. After all, what mortal can stand against the devil?

LGS

Either that or there is now a prophetic vacuum that certain people feel they can fulfill. They have the template of what to say and know that there are a lot of SDA's willing to accept it.

Could be fascinating research for some folks.

Ron

You can download the dreams individually, or in complete booklet form here. http://www.4hispeople.freewebpages.org/
You can also download the testamonials that was listed on the 4hispeople website

Mister Anonymous

Brandy Elswick Shelton is seeking a dissolution of her marriage to Danny Lee Shelton of Three Angels Broadcasting Network (3ABN). There is reportedly no third party involvement.

Ernie Knoll has sent out an email with the subject heading "Ministry Update," to everyone on his old list, again apologizing for his frauds concerning Candace and the Great Commission Council, but he affirms that his dreams were genuine. I prefer to withhold final judgment, as I did before, and see how things play out. But he has a lot weighing against him now. Here is a copy of my response to him:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ernie and Becky,

I hope that Ernie's dreams are truly of the Lord. I had thought Ernie admitted that he made them up. But maybe that was only what others claimed.

I still do not see evidence that convinces me I should endorse Ernie's dreams. But neither do I--nor have I ever--seen anything in the dreams that convinces me they are false. Certainly there is nothing in them that is unbiblical, despite the ignorant and unreasonable claims of a few people who violated 1 Thess. 5:19, 20 for no good reason. So I will continue to withhold final judgment until conclusive evidence does come. Perhaps the Lord will provide this, if the dreams are truly from Him. Surely He will agree that this is now necessary.

The frauds involving Candace and the Great Commission Council will weigh heavily against you. Always. You will have an immensely hard time overcoming this, and with many people you never will. So you should not allow yourself to feel too harshly or resentfully toward anyone who dismisses your present claims.

Do you have anything to say about what seem to be false statements that were made about Steve Wohlberg and his ministry, statements that as I recall you attributed to the one you call the Herald?

I hope you can still have an influence on the side of Good.

Ron Lambert

Apparently Brandy Elswick Shelton filed for divorce from Danny Shelton on August 5.

There is a few things I think Ernie Knoll needs to realize (if he hasn't already), is that
1) He is not an ordained Pastor (as far as I can find out he isn't) and should not state himself as such.
2) The dreams speak to God's "people" across the entire spectrum, that is, the messages are for everyone on the planet, and, they can be discerned by people other than SDA's as well.
3) They can be applied to oneself as well, as they can also apply to Ernie & Becky Knoll, and anonymous, and those listed as "they" as well. In other words, the messages are just not for other people, but apply to those who see themselves in the dreams also.
4) Ernie Knoll, and the rest of us, if we are not already doing it, need to get in the habit of "not throwing out the baby with the bath wather". There are people who have given counsel on the dreams, that have pointed out good points in the dreams, but have not understood the doctrine of the SDA church, and have stated as much. But that does not mean that they don't have an important message to give.

Methinks Mister Anonymous is none other than Ernie Knoll.

Kathleen,
You be thinking wrong. But you are entilted to your way of thinking. :)
MA

A modern day prophet should not attract too much attention to him/herself. Rather, (s)he should let their writings speak for themselves. Of course, self-promotion is not a bad thing at times. I think even Ellen White told a few people that she was experiencing something a little out of the ordinary.

I'm both interested and annoyed by this post and it's ongoing mystery about who or who isn't Ernie Knoll.

I, for one, refrain from directly reading the "visions" lest there be some mystic influence at work when they are read.

All the best to Ernie Knoll if he is indeed on this website regularly checking up on the comments.

I'm even thinking suddenly, that I myself might be this much talked about Ernie Knoll and don't even realize it yet.

By Maggie:

Anyone know anything about David Gates' endorsement and then repudiation of Ernie Knoll's dreams?

I've been watching Gates' videos lately, and stumbled on the connection.

I think the more stressed out we are, the more susceptable we are to grabbing on to people like Knoll and Gates.

I didn't fall for Knoll, but had to give myself quite a severe talking to about Gates.

I suspect it's a developmental deficit, at base.

I would like to see Adventism turn its focus on the neurophysiology of attachment and trauma. There's a gold mine there, I believe.

The cure is in the disease!

Hi, Sirje and Elaine!

Maggie

Maggie

PS I could ask him about his brief endorsement of Ernie if you are really interested.

"The church needs the genuine gift of prophecy, the Living Testimony today."

And why isn't everyone speaking for God fulfilling that need today.

...but I don't want to divert the topic to David Gates - that was just a side question.

Maggie, good to see you're still around! You always have good thoughts to contribute, so keep posting!

I liken Adventism to a war experience. For some, deadly. For some, permanent physical disability. For some, permanent mental disability. For some, just an event to forget. For some, a career. For some, their glory days. For some, healing from scars at home. For all, meaningful.

The question comes down to "Is war (Adventism) 'good'"?

The Two Choices

There are Two Choices That are Held Before President Obama, concerning Global Warming and the USA Response

Choice #1
Keep the current path, as in not "upsetting the cart" so to speak, so that the economy will stay on track, and the current warming of the planet will accelerate at a phenomenal rate, where upon Jesus will return much much sooner than any of us expect, and many, including many in the Obama camp, will NOT be ready for His return.

Choice #2.
The USA will have to lead the world in cutting down on pollution, even at the expense of some economic growth, to start. In the long run, there will be more economic growth, due to "green" jobs. If he picks Choice #2, there will be additional time for people to get ready for the soon return of Jesus, which I believe will be withen a short time, ANYTIME between now and the next two to three decades. If he picks Choice #2, he will have to deal with loss of popularity in the short term, because the economy will take a definite hit, in the short term. But the scales are on the line, there is only TWO choices, either pick the economy now, or economy later, either pick Jesus coming back sooner and people not ready, or give people more time to be ready when He does return.

The USA has been the "lead dog" in creating the pollution, it can choose to be the lead dog in creating a solution, or it can be the lead dog in creating more pollution. The choice is ours.

Ronald,
To ignore #1 would be silly folly now wouldn't it ?

I find folks that fall for deceptions like this tend to be attracted to a Jesus plus religion. IOW whatever happened in the gospels does not seem to be enough for them , they are the Adventist version of Catholics that feel the need to pay alms and indulgences to ensure their way to heaven. The Adventist version of indulgences apart from our obsession with the length of women's dresses, and other female apparal, and how many EGW books one can memeorise in a day and scorning all meat eaters as Satan's chefs. Yet their silence when it comes to social issues - poverty, racism, etc especially in their own back yard says a lot.

Yes keafen,

"Why not just admit that the apostles had it wrong?" like Jesus did after his resurrection. The first time He met the 11, He rebuked them for their unbelief.

He kept telling them repeatedly that He must go to Jerusalem and die then be raised the 3rd day, so why when the women came and told them that they had seen Him and also the two on the road to Emmaus also testified that they had seen Jesus but the 11 did not believe any of the testimonies of their fellow disciples -followers of Christ..."we have seen Him and He is alive". Mark 16:9-14

How amazing is that? Starting the church with 11 unbelievers?
Mark 16:15

It is just a testimony to the power of God that He can bring His True testimony through anyone or anything....even a bunch of rocks or a dumb ass.

Let us behold wondrous things out of Thy law, above all that we ask or THINK!
Meg

P.S.

LOL, Keafen,

Can I use this quote?:

"I liken Adventism to a war experience. For some, deadly. For some, permanent physical disability. For some, permanent mental disability. For some, just an event to forget. For some, a career. For some, their glory days. For some, healing from scars at home. For all, meaningful.

The question comes down to "Is war (Adventism) 'good'"?

The answer to your question is YES, "either make the whole Tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt or make it all good and its'fruit good." I'm paraphrasing Matt. 12:33

We've definitely made the Tree corrupt for many years, and it is now time to make it all good.

Better yet, "Can anything GOOD come out of Adventism? WAR?"

And there was WAR in Adventism... "Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels"

What are they warring about up there in heaven anyway? Fighting over a man child that was born and Who does he represent at the end of time???...the death of God on the Cross or a Living God that never tastes of death? What a time of transition for the Universe.

And to bring the two thoughts together, the only thing that was NOT GOOD in Eden was that "the man should be alone"....go figure that one out. Hint: Jer.31:22,23-26
Oh, shoot, it was just a "sweet dream". (vs 26)

So many questions....so many answers to dig out of the Scriptures. May our hearts burn within us as He talks with us by the Way.

Will He ever really do a "new thing in the earth"?

Read the Spanish translation of this article in "OJO ADVENTISTA" (Adventist Eye).

Lea la traducción al español de este articulo, en OJO ADVENTISTA.

http://laodiceadventista.blogspot.com/2009/08/la-carrera-profetica-de-er...

Yes, Alle,

That is quite a "Word Picture" of the "Broken Body of Christ" you have created in your post.
1Cor. 11:24-29

You just left out the "precept upon precept" part. "line upon line....line upon line....here a little there a little"..."that they might fall and be broken" ... on the Rock. Isaiah 28:10

Yes, indeed, time to...
"BEHOLD the man with the writer's inkhorn!" Ez. 9:11
Let me know when you see him.

(Since I am the "queen" of "baseball" that would make you
The "Pinball Wizard"! LOL! It's all good.)

Thanks, you made my day!

All the best in "discerning the Lord's Body" until
He comes,

Meg

I have updated my webpage. Some of you may find it informative and interesting. http://www.4hispeople.freewebpages.org/

Ernie Bennett

I came across this site because I used to check out 4hispeople.com mainly to check out if it was true (I was hoping it was but never really believe it).

I am not really going to write an essay as I know there isn't a hole lot of point, but I will say I am an ex adventist (yay the health message), ex pentecostal ( yay speaking in tongues etc) and ex moron (yay temple rituals) and then leave you with this.

EVERY Church thinks they are the ONE. Every Church has some sort of prophet or interpretation of scripture that proclaims them the ONE.

No Church is the ONE. If this is truely the end of days there isn't a true Church left.

SDA believes, grab your SOP and put it next to your Bible on the bookself. Then grab the rest of EGW books and put them next to the Bible. Do you notice anything interesting about the sizes of the various writing?

If you look at it objectively it doesn't seem write does it.

Repost, seeing as how the first post got deleted? Or otherwise?

At any rate, the morning of Jan 5th, I had a vision of one of the tall building in one of Ernie Knoll's dreams, the tallest building in the world. There were people falling out of the building, from the shaking of the earth. I do not know when or why this occured. The building is here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_dubai_tallest_building

Personally, I Think Knoll's Full Of Crap.
And For Anyone To Say That They "Know" That
His Dreams Were From God, Are Also Full Of
Crap. You Can't Possibly Know That.
Ohh, What, Did You Ask God?
Even If You Did, Kinda Hard To Get A
Reply From Something That Doesn't Talkk.
Just Sayinggg.

Correction: I said I saw the high rise of Dubai fall in April 2011. This was of my imagination and not of a direct revelation from Heaven above. This was an error on my part and apologize to all!

Hi, I don't know if anyone is still following this article.

I was a SDA for 27 years, so I can understand very well the questions you present about "listening to God's voice" and why a person may deceive so many brothers and sisters through -admittedly- lying and fraud.

I don't know you Loren but I will pray for you. Remember, when Jesus ascended He left us His Spirit to guide us, support us, and SPEAK to us. I believe that if you desire to hear God's voice and seek His face in His Word (and His Word alone I have to say in this context), He will reveal Himself to you.

Ask the Lord to open your spiritual eyes, you may find that His revelation is very personal, profound and life changing.

Blessings from a brother in Christ,

Rafa.

Hey I just read EK's vision of heaven at:
http://bibleportraits.org/71401/71943.html
and I see his Heaven has TV. Now I know his vision came from Satan.
The other proof it's phony: no Chocolate in Heaven, according to his dream!

Hi tech heaven from Ernie's divine visions - from another website referred to above:

in my dream, I am on the right side of a very large temple. {1} The floor has a gradual down slope to a large platform in the front. The ceiling has a gradual up slope toward the front of the temple. I notice a very tall Person on the platform. He is wearing a bright white robe {2} that is like dry mist with folds and has small bells on the bottom. I immediately know this is Jesus.

I stand there, along with many others, because there are no seats. As I watch a large video screen, Jesus talks about what I see. The screen resembles a large sheet of glass that reaches from one side of the platform to the other and curves back on the ends. Even though I stand there for a long time, I do not get tired. As I watch and listen, I am thinking, "Yes, this is all correct {3} and it explains everything."

I now turn to look at the large group of people and see that they all stand in perfect rows that make a perfect square. {4} It is then I notice everyone watches a different video on the same screen, and Jesus, the Great Instructor, {5} is giving an explanation to each person at the same time.

Jesus warned His people to take heed that they be not deceived. He also indicated that if it were possible the devil will deceive the very elect. We can be deceived to accept error or to reject truth. Even sincere people can fall into this trap and not realize it. May God help us to live in close contact with Him so that we can detect error by His help.

S. V. Cliff

OOOOPPPPSSSS!!!!
My goof again ! The correct link IS
http://www.formypeople.org/En/index.shtml

My apologies for the mistake !