Creation Care or Could Care-less?

The Collision (or Cooperation?) of Evangelism, Compassion, Environment and Apocalypse

This week’s lesson on God and creation care grapples with a complex set of theological and sociological conundrums. Our commitment to proclamation of the gospel, anticipation of the coming of Christ, and theological understanding of our world’s destruction in final judgment, collides with the expression of God’s character in His creation and our responsibility for care of the environment and humanity.

To shape the conversation, we will consider four biblical perspectives, official SDA GC statements, and Fundamental Beliefs. Additionally, we will examine the impacts of global population in interaction with climate and environment which present ethical and missiological dilemmas in relation to creation care and climate change..

Four Biblical Perspectives

1)     We hold that God created the world, that His activity was good, that humanity was to be fruitful and multiply and “subdue the earth,” an action tempered by divine command in Genesis 2:15 to cultivate, preserve and protect Eden.[i] We also concur that “The earth is the Lord’s and all it contains, the world, and those who dwell in it.”[ii]

2)     We espouse the world suffered the effects of sin, resulting in nature’s imperfection, loss of agricultural fertility and increased difficulty in sustaining human existence. In Genesis, human sinfulness resulted in the catastrophic impact of the Flood.[iii] One can argue that human sinfulness continues to cause degradation of our natural world.

3)     Given Christ’s end-time prophecies in Matthew 24 and 28, we are called to spread the gospel. We are further admonished in Matthew 25 to care for the nations – providing food, water, clothing and shelter to whom we preach the gospel, while we await Christ’s coming and God’s final judgment.[iv] One could assume we are to focus missiological efforts on people, ignoring the human involvement in corrupting creation, since ultimately all will be incinerated by God’s fiery wrath.[v]

4)     A fourth perspective not addressed in the quarterly, and one we can’t ignore, directly relates creation care and final judgment. At the sound of the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation 11, the pronouncement of God’s judgment and outpouring of wrath includes “the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth.”[vi] The 24 elders' adulation of God proclaims judgment not only against those who persecute God’s saints, but also on those who have destroyed God’s creation.

Official GC Statements and SDA Fundamental Beliefs

The SDA Church issued four GC Exec/ADCOM statements during 1992-96 in regard to the environment and climate change.[vii] In summary, regarding the first two biblical perspectives – of caring for God’s creation, and degradation of the world due to sin – they progressively call for care of the environment as God’s creation, blaming human greed, consumerism, and waste as a consequence of sin that has brought environmental change.[viii]

These statements note impacts on the environment – increasing drought, floods, and elevated levels of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide (C02) that “are a result of human activity.”[ix] They call for sustainable development that acknowledges the biblical call for environmental stewardship. They call for world governments and societies to take steps to counteract global warming.[x] However, the church’s involvement is less clear as a participant in alleviating climate change in these statements.

During the past 16 years, the church has not officially re-addressed these issues, even though global and SDA church demographics and the climate have dramatically changed since these statements were voted.

An update of the SDA Church’s statements may need to be considered in light of the following:

Global Population: Missiological opportunity and environmental conundrum

Humanity has been faithful to the divine command to “be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.”[xi] However, this command came in relation to a world devoid of population. Today, our planet is radically demographically different than Eden or the post-diluvian world.[xii]

World population was estimated at 1 billion in 1804 and over 2 billion by 1930.[xiii] Since then, global population has more than tripled. Between 1996 – when the last GC SDA climate statement was issued – and 2012, another 1.2 billion people were added to the world, equal to “another India.”[xiv] The 2012 global population is approximately 7 billion and is projected to reach 9.3 billion by 2050, adding approximately “2 more Indias” in the next 38 years.[xv]

Population Increase Causes Climate Impacts

The population trend places tremendous strain on provision of food, water, shelter, and power to support increased urbanization. It thwarts efforts to improve standards of living in areas of highest population growth, primarily in Central and South America, Africa and South Asia.[xvi]For example, in 2011, nearly 1.3 billion people had no access to electricity and 2.7 billion had no access to cleaner cooking fuels, and depended on wood or charcoal which are major pollutants.[xvii]Approximately 1.4 billion live below the global extreme poverty line[xviii] and 840 million live in hunger, resulting in malnutrition and death.[xix]

SDA Church membership demographics clearly delineate its interests in these matters. Of its 17.2 million members, 90 percent reside in the emerging or developing world.[xx] Most live in areas in need of sustained economic development, and lack sufficient food, water, shelter – not to mention social stability. The SDA majority live in countries at most risk from climate change – already negatively impacting social stability and economic development.

The challenge becomes how to provide for a growing global population in ways that respect human rights and dignity. From a Christian perspective, this means treating each person as a child of God. From an Adventist perspective, it includes supporting the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the SDA Church states it has done since its inception – not only religious freedom, but enhancement of economic and social improvement and stability.[xxi] It means honoring our denominational commitment to alleviation of global poverty as specified in the UN Millennium Development Goals, which we officially state are part of our “Christian social responsibility.”[xxii]

However, meeting these goals collides with minimizing the impact of global climate change.

Climate Change: Changing environmental factors with more abrupt extremes

While the existence of climate change may be contentious for some people, the global impact observed by climate scientists is apparent, troubling, and demands urgent consideration and response by the global community as well as the SDA Church.

Our world is experiencing unprecedented increases in carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane (CH4) in the atmosphere, both of which contribute to global climate change. The CO2 concentrations measured at Mauna Loa Observatory have increased about 24 percent from 1959 to 2012.[xxiii] Methane, a more potent gas that impacts change, has increased 15 percent from 1983-2010.[xxiv] Soot in the atmosphere is on the rise, impacting warming and contributing to Greenland ice cap melt.[xxv] CO2, CH4, and soot are key elements which have elevated global temperatures as documented by government and private sources.[xxvi] In response, on February 16th, the US announced funding for global efforts to reduce methane and soot.[xxvii]

Resulting temperature increases are causative to climate extremes experienced worldwide as documented monthly and annually in the NOAA, State of the Climate Global Analysis and Global Hazards Reports.[xxviii]

The costs of property and human life have been high and increasing. In 2011, climate and other natural disasters cost an estimated $380 billion in direct global economic losses.[xxix] In 2011, the US experienced its greatest number FEMA-declared disasters (99), and the most billion-dollar disasters in one year (14), with estimated costs totaling $55 billion, continuing an upward trend of more frequent and costlier catastrophes.[xxx] During 2011, 90 percent of US counties had a disaster declaration as of September 30th.[xxxi] The SDA Church’s mission, outreach and institutions are directly impacted by these climate changes.

Arctic Climate Change: Potential for faster, abrupt modification

In the last two decades, the Arctic has experienced more abrupt and significant change than anticipated or built into climate models. As one Arctic scientist recently commented, “In the Arctic, the non-linear future is here.”[xxxii]The 2011 Arctic Sea ice extent reached the second lowest in the satellite record, and the 2011 sea ice mass was the lowest on record, leaving it vulnerable for further reduction this year.[xxxiii] The result is warmer open water in the Arctic which contributes to higher Arctic sea surface temperatures. Increased temperatures and sea ice melt heighten the risk of larger methane releases that may further accelerate climate change. [xxxiv],[xxxv] These potential Arctic climate changes have the prospective capability to create extreme global impacts not witnessed in recent human history.

Increased Climate Extremes: Disrupted Outreach and Greater Need for Disaster Response and Prevention

Increased climate extremes have disrupted lives and livelihoods globally and take years of recovery.[xxxvi]  The outcomes of these rapid climate changes are perhaps best captured in a series of National Intelligence Council reports which anticipate potential impacts on global regions through 2030.[xxxvii] Numerous countries anticipate declines in food security and crop yields due to climate change. India, for example, is expecting crop production declines as high as 30% (for wheat) and China shares similar concerns of inability to meet its food demand without major imports.[xxxviii]

Implications: A Summary

Climate change will negatively impact the SDA church’s ability to support outreach and sustain church institutions. It will negatively impact efforts to improve the lives of members and the global communities in which they reside. These populations will experience an increased risk of the denial of human rights. Climate impact on food production triggering food inflation is a real threat to our work in support of the Millennium Development Goals to alleviate global poverty.[xxxix]

While our Church anticipates Christ’s Second Coming, we are biblically compelled to respond with care and compassion to fellow church members as well as the global community. Creation care – active concern for environment that sustains human existence – is inextricably linked with our theological, apocalyptic and missiological self-understanding and fulfillment of the Church’s purpose. The world is no longer as focused on “greed,” or flagrant waste which were part of the impetus for our prior official statements, but rather on providing the basic needs for survival of humanity till the Lord returns.[xl] Climate change, transportation disruption, housing, food, water and energy security will impact our outreach, damage churches and institutions, and be detrimental to spreading the gospel. In response, climate change mitigation requires our Church’s global commitment and effort.

I end with two illustrative videos and three questions:

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/46434446/#46434446

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/46434446/#46401100

1) Is it time for the SDA Church to officially update and reaffirm its commitment to creation and environmental care in light of climate change while promoting sustainable development to preserve human rights and reduce global poverty?

2) Should we as individual Adventists, the GC, or ADRA promote active denominational involvement in helping the world cope with the impacts of climate change?”

3) Should we care-less about the environment at the peril of being judged as “destroyers of the earth” (Revelation 11:18)?



[i]Genesis 1:26-28; Gen 2:15. See also, the General Conference’s Affirmation of Creation, Response to an Affirmation of Creation, and Statement on Creation: The Bible’s Worldviewhttp://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/index.html, Recent statements by Rick Santorum, a candidate in the US presidential election, capture this view, “We were put on this Earth as creatures of God to have dominion over the earth, to use it wisely and steward it wisely, but for our benefit not for the Earth’s benefit.” He continued, “We are the intelligent beings that know how to manage things and through that course of science and discovery if we can be better stewards of this environment, then we should not let the vagaries of nature destroy what we have helped create.”http://coloradoindependent.com/111924/santorum-and-gingrich-dismiss-climate-change-vow-to-dismantle-the-epa

[ii] Psalm 24:1, NASB.

[iii]Impact of sin on the world, see Gen. 3:17-19; the Flood, Gen. 6:1-9:17, for the understanding  of the Flood in the Great Controversy, see GC SDA, Fundamental Belief 8, http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

[iv]Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; 25:31-46.

[v]See Acts 2:16-21, 2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 20:7-15.

[vi]Revelation 11:18, NET.

[viii]See Caring for Creation -- A Statement on the Environment, http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat5.html; A Statement on the Environment, http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat9.html; The Dangers of Climate Change: A Statement to Governments of Industrialized Countries, http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat8.htmlStatement on Stewardship of the Environment,http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat10.html.

[ix] The Dangers of Climate Change: A Statement to Governments of Industrialized Countries,http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat8.html

[x]The Dangers of Climate Change: A Statement to Governments of Industrialized Countries,http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat8.html.

[xi]Genesis 1:28.

[xii]Repeated in Genesis 8:17, 9:1 and 9:17.

[xiii]See the Population Reference Bureau, 2011 World Population Data Sheet : http://www.prb.org/pdf11/2011population-data-sheet_eng.pdf

[xiv]For the 1996-2012 increase, See U.S. Census Bureau, International Database, http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/idb/worldpoptotal.php, for 2012 Indian population in comparison, see http://www.census.gov/population/international/data/idb/rank.php

[xv]For historical estimates see, “Population seven billion: UN sets out challenges.”  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15459643; For current and future population growth estimates, see,  http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Documentation/pdf/WPP2010_Highlights.pdf

[xvi]For a summation and interconnectivity of issues see, World Economic Forum,Global Risks 2011, http://riskreport.weforum.org/global-risks-2011.pdf. For an example of future food security concerns, see, “Bumper 2011 Grain Harvest Fails to Rebuild Global Stocks”, http://www.earth-policy.org/indicators/C54/grain_2012, The State of Food Insecurity in the World 2011, http://www.fao.org/docrep/014/i2330e/i2330e.pdf, Looking Ahead in World Food and Agriculture,http://www.fao.org/docrep/014/i2280e/i2280e.pdfand The Future of Food and Farming, http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/bispartners/foresight/docs/food-and-farming/11-546-future-of-food-and-farming-report.pdf. For water security, The Impact of Global Change on Water Resources, http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0019/001922/192216e.pdf. For future energy needs see, IEA, World Energy Outlook 2011, http://www.iea.org/Textbase/npsum/weo2011sum.pdfalso, BP Energy Outlook 2030, http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/reports_and_publications/statistical_energy_review_2011/STAGING/local_assets/pdf/2030_energy_outlook_booklet.pdf

[xvii]International Energy Agency, Energy for All: Financing access for the poor, 2011, page 3, http://www.iea.org/Papers/2011/weo2011_energy_for_all.pdf

[xviii]Extreme poverty is defined as $1.25 per day. See International Fund for Agricultural Development (IFAD), Rural Poverty Report 2011, page 9, http://www.ifad.org/rpr2011/report/e/rpr2011.pdf.

[xix]See the UN Millennium Development Goals Report 2011, Addendum, http://mdgs.un.org/unsd/mdg/Resources/Static/Products/Progress2011/Addendum_G1.pdf

[xx]See GC SDA Church, 2011 Second Quarter Secretaries Report by Division, http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/Stats/2ndQtrSecReport2011.PDF#view=fit

[xxi]Universal Declaration of Human Rights, http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/, GC SDA Statement on the 50th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main-stat39.html.

[xxii]“Seventh-day Adventists believe that actions to reduce poverty and its attendant injustices are an important part of Christian social responsibility.”See the GC SDA, 2010 Statement on Global Poverty, http://adventist.org/beliefs/statements/global-poverty.html.

[xxiii]See NOAA, Earth System Research Laboratory (ERSL) Mauna Loa, http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/mlo.html#mlo_full

[xxiv]See NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory (ERSL) Mauna Loa,  http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/dv/iadv/graph.php?code=MLO&program=ccgg&type=ts

[xxv]For increased soot in the atmosphere see, Science Magazine, September 8, 2011, “HIPPO Reveals Climate Surprises”, http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/334245/title/HIPPO_reveals_climate_surprises

    For soot’s contribution to increased Greenland Icecap melt, see NOAA, Climate Watch Magazine, Greenland Ice Sheet Getting Darker, http://www.climatewatch.noaa.gov/article/2011/greenland-ice-sheet-getting-darker-2

[xxvi]For government reporting on global temperature trends see, NOAA/NCDC Global Land Temperature Anomalies, http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/temp-and-precip/global-temps/global/land/ann. For non-government temperature trend data, see http://berkeleyearth.org/pdf/berkeley-earth-summary-20-october-2011.pdfand the video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHZzACcYJRo

[xxix]Bloomberg, January 4, 2012, “Insurers’ 2011 Catastrophe Losses Reached Record on Japan, Munich Re Says” http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-04/insurers-2011-catastrophe-losses-reached-record-on-japan-munich-re-says.html

[xxx]See FEMA: Disaster Declarations, http://www.fema.gov/news/disaster_totals_annual.fema     and NOAA: 2011 a Year of Climate Extremes in the United States, http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2012/20120119_global_stats.htmland NOAA/NCDC Billion Dollar U.S. Climate/Weather Disasters, http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/reports/billion/timeseries2011.pdfand http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/reports/billionz.html

[xxxi]For Homeland Security State Disaster declarations, http://www.fema.gov/dhsusda/searchState.do. For the national disaster map, September 30 , 2011, http://www.standeyo.com/C2C_111003/National.diz.map.jpg

[xxxii]Comment of Eddy Carmack, Department of Fisheries and Oceans, Canada, at the Alaska Marine Science Symposium, January, 2012 as reported in Alaska Dispatch, January 16,  2012, “Inuit hunters buttress theory Arctic Ocean is approaching 'tipping point'”, http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/inuit-hunters-buttress-theory-arctic-ocean-approaching-tipping-point

[xxxiv]See Semelitov’s and Shakhova’s comments, New Zealand Herald, December 14, 2011,  “Rapid rise in Arctic methane shocks scientists”,    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10773020also, a 2010 article, Natalia Shakhova, et al, “Extensive Methane Venting to the Atmosphere from Sediments of the East Siberian Arctic Shelf”,Science, 5 March 2010: Vol. 327 no. 5970, pp. 1246-1250. (subscription required).

[xxxv]As a result of Arctic change impacts to date, the 2011 Arctic average temperature was over 3 degrees centigrade warmer than the 1951-1980 average. For Jan-Dec 2011 global temperatures, http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/gistemp/do_nmap.py?year_last=2011&month_last=12&sat=4&sst=1&type=anoms&mean_gen=0112&year1=2011&year2=2011&base1=1951&base2=1980&radius=1200&pol=reg

[xxxvi]Climate change is linked to potential increases in climate driven migration. See BIS UK, Migration and Global Environmental Change, http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/bispartners/foresight/docs/migration/11-1116-migration-and-global-environmental-change.pdf

[xxxvii]The National Intelligence Council, The Impact of Climate Change to 2030, see http://www.dni.gov/nic/special_climate2030.html

[xxxviii]Marlowe Hood, “Climate-driven heat peaks may shrink wheat crops,” http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-climate-driven-peaks-wheat-crops.html ; India, Economic Times, “'By 2020, world to be 2.4C warmer, India to be hardest hit'”,  http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-01-19/news/28431999_1_global-wheat-production-climate-change-ipcc; Also, India potentially experiencing a 30 % decline in wheat yields, The Food Gap: The Impacts of Climate Change on Food Production: A 2020 Perspective,      page 52,  http://www.feu-us.org/images/The_Food_Gap.pdf, India, Economic Times, “India’s soil crisis: Land is weakening and withering,” http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-07-12/news/29765398_1_soils-farmers-cereal-production;  Global Times, “China may face challenge to feed itself by 2020,” http://business.globaltimes.cn/china-economy/2011-01/618713.html; China Daily, “Climate change 'takes toll' on grain harvest,”  http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-11/05/content_11505107.htm, China soyabean imports totaled 56.7 million tons in 2011 and will be higher this year. Bloomberg, February 14, 2012, “China’s Soybean Imports May Jump to All-Time High on Stockpiling,” http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-14/china-s-soybean-imports-may-jump-to-all-time-high-on-stockpiling.html.  

[xxxix]BBC, February 14, 2012, “Parents 'struggling to feed children as prices rise'”,   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17034134; BBC,  February 13, 2012, “Nigerians living in poverty rise to nearly 61%”,  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17015873

Chris. Blake - Tue, 02/21/2012 - 22:16

C'mon, Ben, only xl resource notes? :) And where's that bio? (Where in flyover country do you work, again?)

Thanks for the update and for raising practical present truth considerations. God so loved this world . . . and God does still care.

Alle - Wed, 02/22/2012 - 05:09

"God so loved this world"...but what are His current contributions? Are there any? What are ours? How much $$$$ do we SDA Americans have to contribute to the third world countries that are vaguely affected by Adventism? A lot of us are barely making our bills, never mind taking care of others. Tithe....pffff. My mortgage has to come first or we are out on the street. All of us.

Horatio - Wed, 02/22/2012 - 06:06

Those who are quick to jump on the latest bandwagon, whether it be climate change, or social justice, or whatever, forget that the focus of the SDA church is, and always has been, to preach the 3 angels' messages. Remember them? Oh, but they refer back to the Creator, and then we get into the debate over evolutionary fairy tales, and we can't have that, can we?

I don't believe it is necessarily the job of the church (in an official capacity) to make public statements about current issues. On an individual basis we should be good stewards, doing our part to improve the world within our sphere of influence, but I don't believe the church should waste valuable resources participating in environmental activism. Those who believe they should must also believe they should be protesting in front of abortion clinics, and publicly denouncing Planned Parenthood.

Good stewardship is not the same thing as environmental activism. Committing criminal acts to save trees or lobsters cannot be justified from Christian principles. "Waste not, want not" may be an overused cliche, but it would go a long way to improving our environment, as would a more concentrated effort to eliminate air and water pollutants from being released; as opposed to becoming hysterical about climate change (it's always been in a state of flux, at least since the flood--you know, the one that so many Specrumites don't believe ever occurred?), and labeling CO2 as a "pollutant." Shall we all quit breathing to save the environment?

bevin - Wed, 02/22/2012 - 06:23

Horatio is partly right and partly wrong

I agree that the SDA denomination's role is spreading the gospel. Any organization that is as bad at science as the SDA denomination should stay out of setting policies that require science.

I agree that protesting abortions and planned parenthood shows a major unwillingness to face the issues head on, and instead to engage in foolish action - as foolish as the Pope's denounciation of condoms.

But the problem is the SDA, like other well-meaning but ignorant groups, have been making the
problem worse by their actions

1) Their medical missions are badly focussed, keeping children and others alive without providng the resources needed for them to live well

2) Their aid damages 3rd world farmers and businesses, by keeping the prices of goods artificially low during a famine so the farmers (who should be making profits during this time, to cause them to store goods to sell it during this time) are instead competing against free food!

3) Their schools advocate western style clothing and behaviors in areas of the world where such is inappropriate

In short, the SDA bring their compassion and inability to do proper cause-effect analysis to the table, and actively do more harm than good. Look at Pitcairn and other SDA dominated islands are in the Pacific and the Caribean. Look at what Christianity has NOT done for Africa...

The thing the SDA should be doing is teaching respect for science and well run businesses. These things are anathema to the SDA denomination.

/Bevin

Beth - Wed, 02/22/2012 - 07:19

Any organization that is as bad at science as the SDA denomination should stay out of setting policies that require science.

That statement is both hilariously and painfully true.

S Styrra - Wed, 02/22/2012 - 10:06

"God will destroy those who destroy the earth" - if that is the case then many many humans will no t be making it to heaven. Unlike most species, humans have a highly negative impact on the planet and ecosystem in many ways.

That text has a point to make, but it is often used as a legalistic sole proof text taken totally literally (as if the gospel didn't apply to those people.

L Humberto Covarrubias - Wed, 02/22/2012 - 20:22

Going to heaven or not! We are to take care of ourselves and what was created for us.

SSS in TN - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 12:32

No one organization or individual can do everything, but there are places to start. 1. Stop buying so much STUFF ! Do you really need that latest cell phone/TV/car? Simplify, our saviour had no place to lay his head yet some Christians/SDA's live in homes much larger than solomons temple. (and almost as lavish) 2. Buy locally grown produce, or better yet grow your own. Chemical companies such as Monsanto and the corporate farm syndicates contribute mightily to global pollution. Stop buying genetically altered organisms (seeds and other foodstuffs) buy or grow organic free pollinators. Bees and birds are dying in large numbers because of pesticides and fertilizers strewn freely in order to maximize yield/profit. 3. QUIT USING STYROFOAM and othe plastics as much as possibe.(i wonder if it is possible) plastic bits have been discovered in krill the smallest thing in the ocean food chain. Birds are dying from ingesting bits of colorful plastic which takes up invaluable room in stomachs resulting in stavation. Sea mammals die and are disfigured by cast away bags and plastic rings. If your fellowship dinners at church involve styrofom plates and cups and plastic utensils, BRING YOUR OWN stuff from home and wash it later.4. Recycle and use things over. quit buying bottled water and use other portable containers.

I could go on , but the bottom line is ....DO Something . Will there be gas guzzling SUV's in heaven? Do what you can to make a difference. One more thing quit using dry cleaners, the solvents used are some of the most toxix and carcogenic chemicals known to man. ... Christ Jesus is coming soon, will he find faith on the earth? Yours in the 3 angels messages, SSS

pat travis - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:13

Ben,

That we should attempt in our sphere to "care for the environment as stewards" You ADD and seem to assume that man is the cause of "climate change."

Man's contributions to "assumed climate change" is less than 6% of natural occuring "global warming gases."

I suggest this is an insignificant percentage of "supposed anthropogenic
caused climate change."

So outside of "micro-creation care" I suggest the church has no part of the big picture.

Another issue is "those who destroy/corrupt the earth." I would suggest you consider the larger "moral picture." i.e. Isa.24:5; and Jer.51:25 as the precursor of the "entire/Babylon- moral international socio-political economic cooperative SYSTEM to be destroyed" as described of the destruction/diaphthero at Christ's judgments at His appearing. Rev.19:2; 11:18.

"Worship Him who made Heaven and Earth" seems to be the call to an unbelieving world. Look to Christ for there is no other.

regards,
pat

Donna Haerich - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 16:41

This is my Father's world - he sees the sparrow fall - if that fall is as the result of actions I may have control over - I must use my God's given responsibility to exercise dominion in ways that glorify his name and bring health and healing to a creation that groans.

Once upon a time - the thinking was that since this physical earth was doomed for fiery destruction - humankind could exploit its resources at will - that is 19th century thinking and theology. It is in the same category as thinking that since only the soul - or spiritual side of a person lives on - how one treats their body is immaterial. Once upon a time - people thought that the church's main function was to save souls - even health care was seen as an "entering wedge". To "do good" because good needs to be done is nice but not a part of the gospel. Or so the thinking was once upon a time.

pat travis - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:06

Donna,

To help heal is legitmate. To "raise the dead" is outside humanities ability.
Wisdom requires we stay within the sphere of "cause and effect" and our ability to affect certain outcomes. "climate change",as such, has come so politicized, I sugggest there are multiple agendas behind it to acheive the political-socio-economic outcomes desired.

To what degree are these computers on which we converse, with some good outcomes, part of a whole that can also do damage. In other words, progress is not linear but spiral with often harmful side effects. There is much benefit to a "dirty crib/stable with waste" for necessary needs were being met.

Hope you get my drift.

I am opposed to hyperenvironmentalism's inherent dangers...both socially and "spiritually/doctrinally." For some worship the creation more than the Creator and His ordained will.

regards,
pat

John Alfke - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 17:22

.."During the past 16 years, the church has not officially re-addressed these issues, even though global and SDA church demographics and the climate have dramatically changed since these statements were voted.".........from the article

there are two opposing needs which paralyze the church in this regard:

1) the very science which demonstrates climate change (which as good stewards of the earth the church should be interested in preserving) are based on ice cores, sea floor cores, radiometric dating, and related sciences all of which show the earth is far more ancient that the church will admit,

and

2) the environmental records from which the climate change is derived ALL show that Noah's Flood never happened as the church keeps Quixotically explaining.

the church may choose to keep living in the dark ages believing that Noah's Flood explains all of geology and that God held the sun from its daily rotation around the earth or used mirrors to lengthen the daylight so Joshua could kill more people ,

or,

the church could choose to reinterpret some of the ancient stories holding it back from graduating to the 21st century and making Christianity relevant to the modern world which needs it.

where there's a will and a heavy counterbalance, there's a way.
http://www.wimp.com/mastbridge/

Horatio - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:12

Why is it that those who have bought into the evolutionary mindset are unwilling to admit that their interpretation of the data may be flawed? Those of us who believe in the Biblical account, including the flood (for which there is abundant evidence), recognize that we don't have all the explanations we would like, but we also see that the evidence is consistent with the Biblical record. Of course the environmental records are interpreted to show that the flood never happened, because there is an a priori assumption among the scientific community that it is a myth. But that conclusion is not inherent in the data. It is interpreted that way because no other possible explanation can be allowed. That's not science.

If "the environmental records from which the climate change is derived ALL show that Noah's Flood never happened," then the interpretation is faulty. We don't believe that the flood explains ALL of geology, but we believe that it accounts for much of what we see. Since no one who witnessed the event left a detailed record, we don't know exactly how the flood affected the earth beyond the fact that it covered the entire globe, and that much of the water came from beneath the earth.

This whole climate change hysteria is mystifying. The radical claims made by otherwise rational people makes one wonder as to the mental state of said individuals. It is clear that the earth has been much warmer in the past (tropical species found as fossils in arctic regions, for example), and also much colder. So the climate is changing--big deal! The concentration on a dubious problem is sidetracking the world from concentration on the real environmental problems: air and water pollution. Eliminating those 2 problems would go a long way toward solving a lot of environmental problems.

bevin - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 18:30

Like I said. Any organization as bad at science as the SDA should stay out of it.

/Bevin

larry joe - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 20:34

Wow, a mini thesis for supplemental SS lesson study. But not as bad as I thought. Pasting it into a Word doc for future reference there's only 5.5 pp text and 4.5 pp endnotes...

Thanks, Ben for doing this helpful detailed overview and offering a Biblical basis, even mandate, to reconsider our personal/church impact/obligation vis-à-vis the environment. Am even going to try and get my kids to look at it, to hopefully tweak up their environmental consciousness. Shabbat Shalom! --an old friend

John Alfke - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:01

..."we don't know exactly how the flood affected the earth beyond the fact that it covered the entire globe".........Horatio

here are just two of thousands of ways scientists study past climates....

and there's no evidence of any turbulent flood mixing up the 30-40,000 annual layers confirmed by Radio Carbon dating in Lake Suigetsu, japan
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/suigetsu.htm

and if the flood covered the entire earth, 15 elbow lengths higher than all the mountain tops, wouldn't the Greenland Ice cap have floated off land and melted in the ocean? instead, scientists have visually measured 10's of thousands of annual layers in the ice,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core

and no evidence of Noah's flood in the last 11-14,000 yrs of Greenland ice cores.....according to:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080619142112.htm
ScienceDaily (June 19, 2008) — Information gleaned from a Greenland ice core by an international science team shows that two huge Northern Hemisphere temperature spikes prior to the close of the last ice age some 11,500 years ago were tied to fundamental shifts in atmospheric circulation.

The ice core showed the Northern Hemisphere briefly emerged from the last ice age some 14,700 years ago with a 22-degree-Fahrenheit spike in just 50 years, then plunged back into icy conditions before abruptly warming again about 11,700 years ago.
end quote.

These are just two of the evidences suggesting why the church might benefit from reinterpreting some of the more literal beliefs based on unscientific ancient writings .

but this dilemma has the church paralyzed: in order to claim that we understand the importance of climate change, we have to first admit that we understand how past climates can be measured and understood..... over very long periods of time, and almost none of them showing the turbulence we always ascribed to Noah's earth destroying flood.

where there's a will and a heavy counterbalance, there's a way.
http://www.wimp.com/mastbridge/

Joe Nichols - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 22:51

John, How can "scientists have visually measured 10's of thousands of annual layers in the ice" when your en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core reference asserts logically that "deeper into the ice the layers...become indistinguishable."? Thanks, Joe
--------------------------------------------------------
"The time resolution (i.e. the shortest time period which can be accurately distinguished) depends on the amount of annual snowfall, and reduces with depth as the ice compacts under the weight of layers accumulating on top of it. Upper layers of ice in a core correspond to a single year or sometimes a single season. Deeper into the ice the layers thin and annual layers become indistinguishable."

Corran Vincent - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:36

Climate Change is a heap of garbage.

The world has experienced warming periods before in AD 950-1250 the tree line in European Alps climbed over 2000m Grapes were grown 200m above the present limits in Pomeranian East, Prussia, England, Southern Scotland and Southern Norway. This resulted in the population of Europe to more than double due increase in food crops.
Unfortunately this was followed by the little ice age were crops were ruined by non stop rain. The great Famine of 1318-1320 extended from the Pyrenees to Russia.

You can read about this.
http://www.michaelkeller.com/news/news575.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period

http://www.michaelkeller.com/news/news575.htm

Yet the Church still wabbles on about Global warming as though it was the end of the world.

Corran Vincent - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:47

Bevin
'1) Their medical missions are badly focussed, keeping children and others alive without providing the resources needed for them to live well'

That’s a bit unfair Adra focuses is to provide amenities to help the people provide for them selves after Adra leaves, Like helping and showing them to have clean water. Grow crops etc. they do this by getting the people and helping them to build and maintain these things themselves.

Corran Vincent - Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:51

Horatio - Wed, 02/22/2012 - 05:06
‘Those who are quick to jump on the latest bandwagon, whether it be climate change, or social justice, or whatever, forget that the focus of the SDA church is, and always has been, to preach the 3 angels' messages. Remember them? Oh, but they refer back to the Creator, and then we get into the debate over evolutionary fairy tales, and we can't have that, can we?’
The SDA exists to spread the message of the Rev 14 problem is everyone thinks we exist because of 1844 which can not be proved from the Bible alone. Only by propping it up with Ellen G White.

larry joe - Fri, 02/24/2012 - 12:31

You can read another interesting essay related to Ellen White and this week's Creation Care SS lesson at http://ssnet.org/blog/2012/02/Was-Ellen-White-Green/

David Awdish - Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:12

@ larry joe, This lesson was not offered from a biblical perspective at all. It was offered from the perspective of "junk science" and a "lame" stab by the church to placate the environmentalist movment. And on this point the church has bowed to a false theology of "global climate change". The very term "climate change" being a politically corrected term because global warming could no longer be proven or supported, as it too was based on junk science.
And here I would add... Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools,

The environmental movement falls squarely into this depiction by Paul. And the church, whether knowing or unwittingly, has fallen for it, hook line and sinker.

The issues of greed, materialism, and waste, now these are issues the church can and should address, and biblically so. But to hop on a bandwagon being led and supported by those who have no love for God, and indeed are given over to debase thought processes, is a mistake.

God isn't interested in behavior modification, He's interested in life transformation!

Rachel - Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:45

Protecting the environment that we live in, protecting the earth that God lets us living in (even for a short while) is not a choice. It is a duty. Just think, if you built a beautiful home and let a friend's family to live in there with the condition that they need to keep it clean and not damaging it. A year goes by, you came to visit them, and the place is now ruin and dirty and filthy. Jesus gave so many parables about the faithful servants/stewards when the master is away. What is so difficult in those parables that a follower of Christ could not understand?

Those who do not take good care of the earth, exploiting it and not protecting the environment for those who come after us, are just thieves, who steal from God and from their children.

The resource of the earth will not last forever. This world is getting more and more crowded by the minute! More and more wastes are filling the earth and less and less space and clean air/water available for everyone.

Martin Schrattenholzer - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 00:25

@ Larry Joe, yes Ellen was green, though not an environmentalist.

@ David Awdish, Global warming is obvious to most people. Spring is coming sooner, glaciers are retreating, and arctic sea ice is melting.

@ Corran Vincent, the claim that the tree line in the alps climbed more than 2000m is as patently absurd as your declaration that: "Climate Change is a heap of garbage."

@ Horatio, I'll try to give you an example:

The Wallowa Mountains of NE Oregon have as a foundation the Martin Bridge formation. This formation is alternating layers of shale and limestone. The limestone includes lots of shells, some corals, and one 6' long marine reptile fossil. Due to the thickness of this formation I do not believe it could have been deposited earlier than the flood.

Over top of this are 2000-3000 feet of the Wallowa Batholith. All by itself this mass of granite would require tens of thousands of years to cool-off deep below the surface in order of the crystals of granite to form. (this insulating layer is mostly eroded away.)

The Dikes of Columbia River Basalt that cut through both formations indicate that both were completely solid when the flood basalts flowed (no not Noah's Flood), Dikes in the layers (there many more than 30) show that each layer of lava solidified before the next one erupted. New canyons formed in at least two of these layers and petrified wood has been found between 4 of the layers.

Only after the last of these flows erupted do the Blue Mountains above Walla Walla start to rise.
At this point in time there is no Hell's Canyon as the same lava flows are found on both sides of the canyon.

The Snake River must now erode a canyon more than a mile deep. And it must do so before the Missoula floods deposit their sediment at Pittsburgh Landing.

Do you still insist that everyone believe firmly in a traditional 4400 years since Noah's Flood chronology?

pauluc - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 00:41

Horatio
It is good to see you are still posting. Your deafening silence to the questions I have asked you on the "curious comments on science" thread caused me to wonder. You seem to have deftly sidestepped them but repeat the same mantra again here

'...evolutionary mindset are unwilling to admit that their interpretation of the data may be flawed"

"...there is an a priori assumption among the scientific community that it is a myth. But that conclusion is not inherent in the data. It is interpreted that way because no other possible explanation can be allowed. That's not science."

In terms of the science I am only interested in what the data shows. It is all very well to make bold statements but when you do not want to answer specific questions about your scientific model and understanding of science I have to extrapolate and conclude you probably do not know much about the bible and salvation either. Such pronouncement bring Christianity into disrepute as Augustine suggested*. There would be some redemption of your credibility if you did show some willingness to that your "interpretation of the data may be flawed"

*If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? (De Genesi ad litteram, Book I, Chapter 19) Augustine 353-430

Horatio - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 04:12

It all boils down to lack of time. I don't have the time or the inclination to go back through all of my material to provide the data you request. My past experiences lead me to believe that those who are entrenched in their evolutionary mindset will discount any evidence provided. I've been studying this issue for decades, and am satisfied that there is no hard evidence for evolution. I gave a few examples somewhere on this forum, but they were either ignored or explained away. And many of the sources that affirm the creationists position are discounted by many members of this forum. So what's the point? I've come to believe that even if Richard Dawkins announced that he no longer believed in evolution, and presented irrefutable arguments for his position, he would receive the same treatment that any other creationist receives.

klimber - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 05:17

"Any organization that is as bad at science as the SDA denomination should stay out of setting policies that require science."........"That statement is both hilariously and painfully true."

SMH.....Seriously?!?!?

Horatio - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 06:14

Addendum to my above reference to Dawkins: evolution has more of the characteristics of a cult than it does of science. It's "god" is Darwin; it's current high priest is Dawkins. No dissent is allowed. The same criticisms that are leveled at the SDA Church by many on this forum, would be even more valid if applied to evolutionary "science." We are accused of being arrogant, closed minded, having our heads in the sand, etc. Evolutionists more so.

Jim Roberts - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 07:24

Environment and Health :

I remember visiting some extended family in smog ridden San Fernando Valley during the early 1960's.
We used to swim at their pool and it wasn't long before I noticed I could only take a 1/2 breath before it hurt to try to take a deeper breath. I have an old high school friend who lives in the south hills of the valley where one can see the whole valley looking toward the San Gabriel mountains. Many days in the 1960's and some years later it was impossible to see the mountains due to the smog. I went to his house a couple weeks ago and I could see clearly all of the way. Sometimes it is due to the weather but the smog devices on the cars have greatly reduced the smog. Those in Riverside and Loma Linda experienced the same situation.

I was familiar with the political conservative factions who griped about the government mandates to get the car manufacturers to clean up the car exhaust because they were so anti-government involvement, fearing communist like establishment and influence.

Evidently the manufacturers had to be pushed or else they would not progress because of expenditures in their factories for additional engineering and parts costs.

Ron Miranashe - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 08:07

We will never to justice to world issues because they are not OUR issues; we have neither the resources nor time for them. Let's get on with our work. This world will not cool off even if we all died. God intends to burn it. So, let's prepare people for that impending reality. Another thing nobody down here controls the sun. It can unleash hell and there is no science to mitigate that. We have zillions of cosmic bodies that can increase planetary temperatures. Please don't waste our time. Get real or rather, wake up. We are far behind in our work.

TJG - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 09:25

Global Warming?

Presently there are 5 different systems for estimating global temperatures. These systems contradict one another. HadCRU, UAH and RSS show no warming for the last 10-15 years, while GISS and BEST show steady warming. -- Dr. David Wojick, Department of Energy consultant.

tg

pauluc - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 16:39

Horatio

Some of us Christians who actively practice science based on its fundamental principle of operational naturalism and publish in the peer reviewed literature disagree with Dawkins fundamentalist as vehemently as we disagree with Christian fundamentalists yet you continue to characterize science as atheism and scientists as inept fools.
The cat got my homework is never going to work as a scientific contribution and I have to confess that I must view you as scientifically ignorant, arrogant and closed minded. But praise God the Grace of God that accepts us as his children is not dependent on our knowledge, scientific or otherwise. We are by faith seated in heavenly places and part of the Kingdom of Heaven here and now by Faith in his goodness not our own.

George Tichy - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 17:05

>>> Global Warming?

Good old Buddy,

Wanna see it? Come to So California!
We no longer offer Winters to tourists here. Three Seasons only per year! And this year we couldn't even tell the younger kids what Winters look like.
It's been about 5 Winters now that I didn't have to wear my heavy coat - which I did before for several weeks every year.
Christmas at 82 F???? Santa already put us on notice: he won't be coming to this area this year... It melts his boots...

I believe that after the incoming Summer, I will proclaim myself as "well done." It's gonna be HOT!

(Of course, Rush disagrees vehemently...) - :) :)

Horatio - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 17:34

What? TJG and I agree on something? The climate change alarmists (like Al Gore, who is a politician and not a scientist) conveniently ignore the past climate of our planet. It's been warmer than this in the recent past (Middle Ages), and it's been colder. So, maybe (or maybe not) it's warming a bit. One figure I've heard is about 1 degree Celsius over the past century. That's hardly cause for alarm. I live in a coastal State. I'm still waiting for the sea level rise that has been forecast for many years (due to all the melting ice). The facts are that there are so many variables to consider when trying to make a prediction about long term climate fluctuations, that any conclusions must necessarily be taken with a grain of salt.

And Pauluc, I don't have to prove to you my level of scientific understanding. You've proved my point. I don't believe your brand of science, so I must be ignorant. My degree in science and my study of the creation/evolution issue over many decades is bogus in your way of thinking. So be it.

pat travis - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 18:10

George,

In 1955, I attended 5 th grade Loma Linda Elementary school as a transplant from Atlanta, Ga. for a year. I loved it because I didn't wear more than a long sleeve shirt all "winter."

The "climate" is in continual flux. Anthopogenic "climate change" is unscientific based on flawed human computer models incapable of entering in all the necessary data for predicting the cause or future of "climate change."

regards,
pat

Tom Zwemer - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 18:48

Back in 1954 Lake Michigan began to rise, eroding the coast line just North of Milwaukee. A faculty friend owned an 80 acres farm, one farm in from the shore. I lived in a small tract house about 3/4 mile inland. The farmer who owned shoreline propertry started a petition asking the Army Corp of Engineers to allow more water out through the Chicago drainage canal to stop the erosion. My friend declined to sigin the petition. His shoreline friend asked why. My faculty friend said: I always wanted lake front property.

The next year the lake level returned to its normal level. I moved to Calif into another tract home only to learn that the Santa Anna River was only rocks at the Redlands level and the Navy River Command was only an assignment at Norton.

Let's face it we live on a very unstable planet with more unstable governments. Never-the-less I still prefer prayer to petitions. Some say it is because I am getting old. I say, i've been like that every since I read Chicken Little in Teddy Roosevelt Public School in Pound, Wsc.

"From dust thou art to dust returneth was not spoken of the Soul". We can rest safe in the Arms of Jesus--it won't seem long. Tom Z

pauluc - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 20:10

Horatio
I did not expect you to give me details of your credentials as that is only indirectly related to knowledge on a particular topic. I used the word ignorance not as a perjorative term but in its proper sense; "lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant " I am not questioning your dedication, belief, spiritual commitment or character in any way. I am simply using the term to indicate a lack of evidence of understanding or education in a particular area of knowledge that I have no illusions is universally understood. If you do in fact have the knowledge as indicated by your claim;
"My degree in science and my study of the creation/evolution issue over many decades..." I did expect that as a knowledgeable person you would deliver some reasoned response based on data. That you should claim to have spent so much time in study but be unable to respond was surprising to me.

As for my "brand of science" I simply use the science as practiced by scientists that participate in the scientific discipline; Based on hypothesis testing and methodological naturalism. If you do not accept that as science then any concern about me is dwarfed by the significant issue you have with all of science including evidence based medicine.

John Alfke - Sat, 02/25/2012 - 20:26

for a serious if long explanation about how we know what we do about "climate change" and or global warming.....

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/cycles.htm

of course, to appreciate it, one has to accept the long ages of the earth.....and understand the various ways scientists "date" past ages.

where there's a will and a heavy counterbalance, there's a way.
http://www.wimp.com/mastbridge/

Horatio - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 06:45

I used to have in my possession an newspaper article from about 100 years ago. The article basically discussed the fear of melting polar ice caps. So, we've been there, done that; let's move on.

pat travis - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 08:39

http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2001/May/the-environment-created...

In 1972 the Club of Rome and a computer model created by MIT said the earth maybe had 30 yrs. to survive........well that was 40 yrs.ago.

George Tichy - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 09:33

Is MIT a short version of "MITT"...? No wonder it didn't work right.... it flip-flopped... :):)

pat travis - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 10:21

MIT is that "unscientific trade school of inadequate science" called Massachusetts Institute of Technology. :>)

The point is in the present state of GCM's has the same problems. You may feel you have most of the info necessary in the model but if you don't have all the necessary input you have a skewed model with a "fudge factor" always necessary to "make the data work." You also have shown you don't know all the input for the cause of "the problem." Remembering also that most that believe man as the cause still are attributing his contribution to "global warming gases" at less than 6% of the total contribution.

Correlation of some data and outcomes does not equal causation and thus proof of Anthopogenic causes for global climate changes.

George Tichy - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 10:38

Who are the biggest fighters against the global warming proposition?
I bet they are all primarily concerned with our (people's) health (air quality) above all other interests they may possibly have.
I am sure that those politicians that support the anti-global warming idea are certainly the most responsible ones, those who can't even sleep at night due to their concern about our health. I love those people's commitment to our well being, always putting our interests first and anything else second. What a great people!

This I believe, until someone convinces me that I am wrong...

pat travis - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 10:52

One' sincerity about a cause does not justify the means of obtaining an end point. The theory of Man's causing "global warming" has been used as the excuse and means of some political entities acheiving their perceived good outcomes/programs/agenda's.

The truth of a matter needs to be the starting point and not our desire and sincerity that a view might lead to a certain better outcome.

bevin - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 10:56

TG: Google your sources before you quote them...

I found

David Wojick is a consultant with the Office of Scientific and Technical Information at the U.S. Department of Energy ****in the area of information and communication science****. He has a Ph.D. in the philosophy of science and mathematical logic from the University of Pittsburgh and a B.S. in civil engineering from Carnegie Tech

Pat: There has been a lot done since the Club of Rome and the initial computer models. If I yell "look out, you might be driving into a wall" and you swerve and don't hit that wall, it is not fair to conclude that 30 years of work into missing walls since then is wrong.

It was known, even at the time, the computer models were inadequate. There has been a LOT of work done on improving the data and the modelling - and lots of changes in the world since then also

/Bevin

Horatio - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 10:57

Good points, Pat.

pat travis - Sun, 02/26/2012 - 11:08

Bevin,

Unless the "perceived wall/man caused global warming" isn't there and a mirage. Then much time, effort, money has been misappropriated that could have been better used for ultimate efforts in improving society by practical known efforts in which we can truly judge causes and outcomes.

regards,
pat

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